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Gauntlet thrown back in PB's face. Based on information Rick posted some time back, I've finally got my "Give a Damn" meter back up to 1% and send this to PB.

I took out the cost of my add-ins (in case any one else wants to cut and paste it with their own) that I added through the pledge manager and just left the value of an unfulfilled Battlecry, as best as I estimate.

As I'm pretty sure they will (loudly) decry a refund, the next step when I get their response would be refiling with the AG & now the FTC ... and maybe the BBB.

------------------------------------

Dear Palladium Books

As per FTC regulations Title 16 → Chapter I → Subchapter D → Part 435 §435.2 Mail, Internet, or telephone order sales I hearby give notice I reject your "proposed" delay of shipping Wave 2 from December of 2015 to 2016 Q2 and demand an immediate refund of the unfilled portion of my RRT order.

As per Kickstarter's Oct 2013 terms of service, Palladium is requires to fulfill ALL items offered in the KS and cannot claim that the shipped value is proper compensation for the entirety of the pledge. Based on an accumulated value of a base set + "extras" additional items added on in the backerkit, I have arrived at the following estimate for refund:

Base set $80 - Filled
+4 Veritech $50 - Filled
+12 Regult $50 - Filled
+1 Glaug/Quel-Regult/Recovery Pod
$20 - Filled
+1 Rick Hunter $15 - Unfulfilled
+1 Roy Fokker $15 - Unfulfilled
+2 Spartan/+2 Phalanx $20 - Filled
+1 Khyron $15 - Unfulfilled
+4 Artillery Regult $20 - Filled
+1 Miriya $15 - Unfulfilled
+3 Gnerl $15 - Unfulfilled
+3 Nousjadeul-Ger $20 - Unfulfilled
+2 Super Valkyries $17.50 - Unfulfilled
+3 Queadluun-Rau $30 - Unfulfilled
+2 Lancer II $10 - Unfulfilled
+2 Ghost $10 - Unfulfilled



Battlecry Subtotal KS value $402.50
Fulfilled value $240 59.62%
Unfulfilled value $162.5 40.37%
BattleCry KS cost $140
Remaining prorated cost $56.51 40.37%

Total refund request $56.51

If I do not receive this amount refunded by Dec 31, 2015 I will begin investigating legal recourse to recoup this amount.

wonders if PB can feel the burn ? also I was a little more generous then you Stormanu and just prorated the undelivered portion of the RRT as $50 since couldn't really put a cost on things like the books and cards and such. also i'm still waiting on the promised dual colored blast template promised.

Asterios wrote:
wonders if PB can feel the burn ? also I was a little more generous then you Stormanu and just prorated the undelivered portion of the RRT as $50 since couldn't really put a cost on things like the books and cards and such. also i'm still waiting on the promised dual colored blast template promised.

That's the thing. Stormonu didn't need to put a cost on the books and cards. PB already did. $80 for the books, cards, and all the contained miniatures, which he factored out at the start. You don't need to break that part down.

As for the colored template, I'm figuring that they've considered that resolved, just as they did the Tomahawk/Defender thing, which also lead to it being an issue with the Daedelus box (the graphic specifically shows 8 Tomahawks, people got the same 4/4 split as normal, even though it would have been easy to just add in more Toma sprues. "Oops, we done stuffed up, our bad, but tough luck" seems to be an onrunnning theme. I'm half expecting if they do produce Wave 2, they'll forget about the promise made with regards the VEF/1D box too, and use the same excuse.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Asterios wrote:
wonders if PB can feel the burn ? also I was a little more generous then you Stormanu and just prorated the undelivered portion of the RRT as $50 since couldn't really put a cost on things like the books and cards and such. also i'm still waiting on the promised dual colored blast template promised.

That's the thing. Stormonu didn't need to put a cost on the books and cards. PB already did. $80 for the books, cards, and all the contained miniatures, which he factored out at the start. You don't need to break that part down.

As for the colored template, I'm figuring that they've considered that resolved, just as they did the Tomahawk/Defender thing, which also lead to it being an issue with the Daedelus box (the graphic specifically shows 8 Tomahawks, people got the same 4/4 split as normal, even though it would have been easy to just add in more Toma sprues. "Oops, we done stuffed up, our bad, but tough luck" seems to be an onrunnning theme. I'm half expecting if they do produce Wave 2, they'll forget about the promise made with regards the VEF/1D box too, and use the same excuse.

or they will just give out paper stand-ins and say oops our bad, thing is they are used to their fan base excusing their behavior and letting them slide which is also now happening with many backers, they let PB slide and as long as good people do nothing evil shall run rampant.

So PB fan is now name-calling? Oversensitive aren't you?

Not at all. Calling someone a PB fan here is being dismissive. Pretending it isn't is disingenuous, but your posts are getting more and more disingenuous as we go.

I'm curious why you assume the DEFAULT state for ND and PB is that they're sharing the profits.

I never once claimed they were. I never claimed anything about their financial agreement. You did, however. So feel free to back it up. I know you can't, which is why you keep trying to pass it off to me.
Probably best for you to drop it.

Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?

ND may have screwed up

Yep.

Says the person who seems to be very emotionally invested in PB and Kevin.

I think it is fairly clear I don't actually care about PB or Kevin, that I actually only care about this game and getting the remainder of my pledge. I don't like nor hate them.
Unlike so many who post here.

 n815e wrote:


I think it is fairly clear I don't actually care about PB or Kevin, that I actually only care about this game and getting the remainder of my pledge. I don't like nor hate them.
Unlike so many who post here.

I wish I could sit back and just wait for Wave 2 to show up, would've really like my Monster. I did so for Zombicide season 2, and was pretty patient with Z3 - though in both cases at worst their stuff was only a month or two late.

However, after the Defiance KS, watching Prodos circle the drain on how their handling AvP (I'm so glad now I was too tapped out at the time to get into the KS) and waiting for 6 months on D&D cards on a stupid Gale Force 9/Battlefront order (that was screwed up 3 times), I don't feel like I can sit back and trust PB could let this run on autopilot to the end. To me, they obviously need a kick in a rear (or head, I guess) to realize this is other people's money they are sitting on, and just sitting on it isn't acceptable.

I don't know about you, but both Zombicide 2 and Zombicide 3 (Wave 1) arrived *early* for me - that's why I'd be OK backing CMoN projects.

But yeah, it would be nice to get the Wave 2 stuff by this time next year.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't know about you, but both Zombicide 2 and Zombicide 3 (Wave 1) arrived *early* for me - that's why I'd be OK backing CMoN projects.

Yeah, I got the Wave 1 for Z2 a day before the campaign's estimated shipping date, and the Z3 base game was sent out months(?) ahead of time. Both ended up being late for overall delivery but neither time was I worried - especially with Z3 when they lost the container in port! Why? Because they let us know what was going on, and were ready to make it right (in the latter, sending out what they had and ordering a replacement container at their own cost).

With PB, I feel the exact opposite - I feel uniformed and I get the sense that they just don't care as much as they should. I doubt they've EVER had a million dollars at their disposal before or after the KS for ANYTHING they have ever done, and right now "it's not their focus." - and clearly hasn't been for a year.

I gotta get this rant off my chest, because it really, really bugs me. I have been, for years and years, a procrastinator - and still slip into that habit every so often. And I think that is why PB's procrastination infuriates me so. I've been in situations at work where it's "hurry up and wait" and not been in a hurry to push something to completion. But PB takes the cake. They SHOULD have been working on ironing out the Wave 2 production the moment they got notification that the factory was starting to send Wave 1 out the door. AT WORST, it should have been about 4 months before they had something ironed out to start getting pre-production pieces. Two months AT MOST to iron out quality issues. That would have put them at what - Jan/Feb 2015 producing Wave 2? There is NO excuse that things have taken this long, especially with the silent treatment they have been giving us.

But yeah, it would be nice to get the Wave 2 stuff by this time next year.

That...that just depresses me - makes my stomach sink through the floor - that it could be how long we'd have to wait (at least). Though I've gotten to the point where I now believe they just don't have the money (nor enthusiasm) left to do all of Wave 2. I think Kevin's gotten bored and shelved the project until it somehow interests him in the future, when he comes up with some sham or half-arsed idea to promote it.

Wave 2 is a thing of the past, it is a smoke screen, this is why I'm going the lengths I am, it is because PB has shown us no evidence that wave 2 exists or is even being worked on, all they have done is shown us 3D images of the stuff ND did last year.

@stormonu: I did my own calculations and came up slightly different. I used the early bird pricing of $70 for the core box as that is the pricing in line with the showdown and reckless tiers. The super Valks are also $35 for 2.

So total is $420 for a non early bird battlecry and $410 for early birds, showdown and reckless tiers. Not too big a difference as the prorated cost comes out to about $57 per battlecry and a smidge higher for the non early bird battlecries.

Sending a similar request and will see how pb responds.

 Stormonu wrote:
That...that just depresses me - makes my stomach sink through the floor - that it could be how long we'd have to wait (at least). Though I've gotten to the point where I now believe they just don't have the money (nor enthusiasm) left to do all of Wave 2. I think Kevin's gotten bored and shelved the project until it somehow interests him in the future, when he comes up with some sham or half-arsed idea to promote it.

Fantastic that you care enough after all their shenanigans to have these feelings...
I am certain of their lack of enthusiasm, I think they may have clued into trying to keep the money than have it rolled into expensive dies and stock that does not sell.
They tend to overlook that the money is for meeting their committed "rewards" not for core business funding.
Funny though, I am sure he is torn since this is the biggest captive audience he has had for decades so it gives him the attention he craves but legal and BBB pokes are making him nervous until they linger long enough and have no traction and he can get all bold with us again.
As long as he thinks he can find a new way to get more cash from this cow he will take runs at it... as long as he can make us forget and pay for new product we already paid for in the kickstarter.

I suspect they're treating that robotech money like tax breaks for a home business. As long as they put in that paltry token amount of effort into the project weekly ("we made a phone call yesterday!!") that they believe constitutes them meeting the bare minimum to keep the letter of the kickstarter contract valid, they can use some of those funds to pay ongoing costs. I mean, they need to keep staff paid to make that phone call, right? Tiny percent of that bill comes from robotech. They need to pay the phone bill, electric bill, and mortage on the building to prep for and make than phone call, right? A tiny percent of those get taken from the robotech fund. Those are legitimate uses of the funds IF AND ONLY IF they're actually making progress. After a few years of delays, those tiny percent nibbles add up and in the meantime we as backers have been shown NOTHING since February as definitive progress on the existing rewards. We've instead gotten empty promises, a bunch of ancillary side projects that are NOT within the scope of the original kickstarter like "exclusive" and paper minis, and a single paragraph of rules corrections (sandwiched in a page of filler).

 Talizvar wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
That...that just depresses me - makes my stomach sink through the floor - that it could be how long we'd have to wait (at least). Though I've gotten to the point where I now believe they just don't have the money (nor enthusiasm) left to do all of Wave 2. I think Kevin's gotten bored and shelved the project until it somehow interests him in the future, when he comes up with some sham or half-arsed idea to promote it.

Fantastic that you care enough after all their shenanigans to have these feelings...
I am certain of their lack of enthusiasm, I think they may have clued into trying to keep the money than have it rolled into expensive dies and stock that does not sell.
They tend to overlook that the money is for meeting their committed "rewards" not for core business funding.
Funny though, I am sure he is torn since this is the biggest captive audience he has had for decades so it gives him the attention he craves but legal and BBB pokes are making him nervous until they linger long enough and have no traction and he can get all bold with us again.
As long as he thinks he can find a new way to get more cash from this cow he will take runs at it... as long as he can make us forget and pay for new product we already paid for in the kickstarter.

Not "real" fans. So, apart from getting a little chub at looking at the length of his email list...they totally don't matter and we all know it.

I swung by the Palladium forums today to see if there was any news/activity and I think I found the latest shocking episode of Palladium breaking their word:

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149582&p=2896751#p2895709

TechnoGolem wrote:

Sigh, I think I am done with X-Mas Surprise Packages. I had planned to order 4 more but more often than not I've been disappointed by my orders.

In the latest order I got yet another duplicate for a book I already owned and wasn't even on my list of requested books. This time I only ordered 1 package but listed 30 books I wanted and still this happened again. :(

Last year was amazing. Sadly I've been disappointed about something with every single order except one. The biggest disappointment this year was getting Robotech RPG Tactics. I never asked for it and my hands are screwed up so I could never even assemble the miniatures if I wanted to. I would much rather have received the books I actually asked for. :(

I'm glad things have worked out for the rest of you. I was hoping to complete my collection this year but sadly it didn't work out. I ended up falling well short of my dream due to duplicates and receiving items I didn't even ask for or want.

My emphasis above. Of course, the official stance of Palladium is that:

http://palladium-store.com/1001/product/XMAS-X-Mas-Surprise-Package.html

Palladium Books wrote:
* Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Main Box Set – A small number of RRT main box games have been put aside for the 2015 Surprise Package! Give us a good reason to send you this awesome game with 30+ game pieces, rule book, 50 cards, 24 dice and more, and we’ll consider you. But you’d better have been a very good girl or boy. This game has a $99.95 value, so if you are one of the lucky ones to get one in your Grab Bag, it is the only item you will receive! An incredible way to try this game. Very limited.
Only people who request this item will be considered.

The DOUBLE emphasis above is Palladium's. Yes, even when they bold and italicize a definitive statement, they apparently have no qualms about breaking it soon after. This is of course no surprise given that they did the same thing during the 19 page update of everything except actual progress when referring to the latest batch of "exclusive" convention/backer minis... and then promptly broke that promise three times so far in the months since (the ongoing months long grab bag, the first "splash sale", and their Black Friday sale). The "exclusive" minis have been available to EVERYONE longer than they were ever actually exclusive, lol. And now we see that Robotech is such a hot commodity for Palladium that they're willing to just throw it into grab bags willy nilly when someone does NOT want it instead of a selection of 30 books. Yes, the RPG books that no one plays are more valuable than what we kickstarted apparently.

Eh... what can you do besides document the string of broken promises? I take solace in knowing that we are only weeks away from Rick dropping the legal hammer and hopefully cracking the wall of silence to see what is really (not) going on behind the scenes. Rick, will you be filing in the first week of 2016?

Palladium fethed up? Unbelievable!

Yeah...that's not fething up. That is 100% exactly what was predicted by...well, just about everyone really.

Now now Warboss, obviously that bolder word was written by someone else, most likely ninja division or the Chinese, who then also snuck in and mis packed the order.
Paladium loves it's fans, and Kevin must be in incredible pain right now.

Merijeek wrote:
Yeah...that's not fething up. That is 100% exactly what was predicted by...well, just about everyone really.

The two are not mutually exclusive in the case of Palladium or Donald Trump.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
Now now Warboss, obviously that bolder word was written by someone else, most likely ninja division or the Chinese, who then also snuck in and mis packed the order.
Paladium loves it's fans, and Kevin must be in incredible pain right now.

Or treachery on the part of another disloyal employee. The possibilities are endless but the probability is always that Palladium just does/says what is most convienent for them at the time.

So, PB gives people things they specifically did not ask for and should not have received?
Why does this not surprise me?
<sing> Your a mean one, Mr Grinch...

Though a version of "I love it" seems more appropriate:

"I got this feeling on a summer day in 2013
I launched my kickstarter. I watched, I let it burn.
I threw your gak into a bag and pushed it out at Christmas.
I bought my car with KS funds.

I don't care, I love it.
I don't care."

Okay, I think I got my silliness out.
Back to my normal griping.

They probably just pull random stuff off of the designated overstock from the year and use it to create the grab bags. I've heard people getting great things that they wanted for the most part. Again, I think it's more of people know they are taking a risk at some random stuff for cheap and it does not always pan out. Plus, with these types of sales, if the person picking your stuff is having a crappy day, you are probably screwed.

 Mike1975 wrote:
They probably just pull random stuff off of the designated overstock from the year and use it to create the grab bags. I've heard people getting great things that they wanted for the most part. Again, I think it's more of people know they are taking a risk at some random stuff for cheap and it does not always pan out. Plus, with these types of sales, if the person picking your stuff is having a crappy day, you are probably screwed.

Of course it a risk it is a grab bag.

Except they quite clearly said only if you ask for RRT would you get a chance to get it and it your whole grab bag. So if you didn't ask for it you should not have to worry about if you get it or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike1975 wrote:
They probably just pull random stuff off of the designated overstock from the year and use it to create the grab bags. I've heard people getting great things that they wanted for the most part. Again, I think it's more of people know they are taking a risk at some random stuff for cheap and it does not always pan out. Plus, with these types of sales, if the person picking your stuff is having a crappy day, you are probably screwed.

Of course it a risk it is a grab bag.

Except they quite clearly said only if you ask for RRT would you get a chance to get it and it your whole grab bag. So if you didn't ask for it you should not have to worry about if you get it or not.

It could be the only way they get rid of the game and get some money at it, since evidently not too many are buying the game willingly or even requesting it.

Given that the PB fan faithful are RPG types, no they wouldn't be requesting RRT. RRT is a totally seperate customer base.

Reading between the lines, he said he got a duplicate book and RRT, but the Grab Bag link notes that if you request the RRT core, it'll be the only thing you get.

So either they tried to 'sweeten the deal' with a book above and beyond what should have been sent in a core box grab bag, or when he says he got 'RRT' stuff, he might have just gotten some expansions and the book(s?).

Let's not overlook that at MSRP, it wouldn't be hard to bump an "$86-92+" package by a solid $75 with a pair of RRT expansions (many in the $37 range) plus an old Rifter or something.

They want a good reason to send us RRT in a grab bag? How about: "You owe me $300 in Robotech minis that you havent even started to produce yet"

 warboss wrote:

The two are not mutually exclusive in the case of Palladium or Donald Trump.

Y'know, if you rip the mustache off Kevin, he does look a lot like Donald Trump - flailing hands and all...

Apparently this is PBs new way to try and build up a player community....What better way than to forcefully induct their best fans (people who actually order their grab bags) so that these fan-friends can now support RRT as well while having the game.

 Forar wrote:
Reading between the lines, he said he got a duplicate book and RRT, but the Grab Bag link notes that if you request the RRT core, it'll be the only thing you get.

So either they tried to 'sweeten the deal' with a book above and beyond what should have been sent in a core box grab bag, or when he says he got 'RRT' stuff, he might have just gotten some expansions and the book(s?).

Let's not overlook that at MSRP, it wouldn't be hard to bump an "$86-92+" package by a solid $75 with a pair of RRT expansions (many in the $37 range) plus an old Rifter or something.

That's not how I'm reading it. It sounds like he already had the rulebook (probably from a previous grab bag) and got just the robotech starter box as his only grab bag this year despite not asking/wanting it and supposedly giving a 30 book wish list of stuff he actually wanted. YMMV. Either way, he didn't want it and palladium broke their faux exclusivity promise and threw it in a grab bag anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike1975 wrote:
They probably just pull random stuff off of the designated overstock from the year and use it to create the grab bags. I've heard people getting great things that they wanted for the most part. Again, I think it's more of people know they are taking a risk at some random stuff for cheap and it does not always pan out. Plus, with these types of sales, if the person picking your stuff is having a crappy day, you are probably screwed.

Indeed, I've said several times in the thread that my one and only grab bag in 2013 was actually quite nice both in terms of content and items I actually wanted. It's just frustrating to see Palladium yet again promise faux rarity only to break their word soon after. It's the (lack of) principle in the situation. As others have said, it's nothing new and sadly par for the course for Palladium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I got a mid week update from Palladium not long ago. Apparently they "forgot" to turn off the extra special sale that includes 40-50% discounts on RRPGT as well as the totally not exclusive minis. They've decided to extend the sale after the fact just like with every Grab Bag in recent memory.

Crazy Kevin is has everything at INSANE PRICES! Come buy it all before the owners get back from Bermuda and cancel the sale!

 warboss wrote:
That's not how I'm reading it. It sounds like he already had the rulebook (probably from a previous grab bag) and got just the robotech starter box as his only grab bag this year despite not asking/wanting it and supposedly giving a 30 book wish list of stuff he actually wanted. YMMV. Either way, he didn't want it and palladium broke their faux exclusivity promise and threw it in a grab bag anyways.

In the post you quoted he says he got a duplicate of a book he already had, not a second copy of the RRT rule book.

As I noted, it's possible he did get a core, I'm simply pointing out that he didn't *say* he got a core. He said he got RRT. For all we know they shipped him 3 VT squad boxes (or some other combination of expansions). That'd be $111 (msrp) in value right there!

One of us could ask him for clarification, but we can agree that it doesn't really matter. I'm not so much correcting you as I am thinking outside the box as to what he might have gotten. A weekend of sales later, CoolStuffInc still has the same quantity of Spartan/Phalanx boxes and Artillery Pod boxes they had before their Black Friday sales began (3 and 13 respectively).

Ergo, expansions found in the core box (ie; 2/3 of them) might not be selling particularly well elsewhere too.

Also, let's check the big board!

Days since the last update: 56
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **145**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 276
Days since the campaign ended: 926

Days until the end of Q2 2016: 212 (current "ideal")
Days until Gencon 2016: 245
Days until the end of 2016: 396

It has been a month longer since we got substantial information than they have left until Gencon. As in, they have ~8 months to go and it has been 9 months since they showed us anything tangible. Like, mull that over for a second. Getting done in 7 months would be 'ideal', 8 would be Gencon time, and they have 11 and change until Black Friday 2016 (gotta pimp those sales!), and yet here we are, with nothing for an entire year but 5 sprue breakdowns and more *Jazzhands* than we know what to do with.