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Read the CIA’s Simple Sabotage Field Manual: A Timeless, Kafkaesque Guide to Subverting Any Organization with “Purposeful Stupidity” (1944)

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Thanks, Smilodon. That reads like a outline of the post Kickstarter period of this project. I guess Kevin must have "accidentally" copy pasted that into the Palladium employee manual decades ago when it was declassified. The only thing missing from that article (I didn't read the book yet) is step #1: All decisions must go through me no matter how mundane or how many times the same thing was decided in the past. If the decision proves ultimately to be wrong, it is the fault of the employee, partner, or fan friend who initially brought it to my attention.

Jefffar wrote:
It's a violation of Forums of the Megaverse rules to make posts containing, requesting or promoting the conversions of others IP to a Palladium game system. That rule has been in place since before 2000.

He posted about his rules on Palladium and I had to give him a warning.

What you do here is up to Dakka Dakka's moderators to make their call about.

Oh? So PB has softened their stance on using their terms/properties and conversions to and from them?

Because this seems pretty clear on those matters, requiring the appropriate trademark/copyright symbols and on conversions being verboten.

Not that I'm trying to pick a fight or get Mike into trouble, but let's not be coy, PB has a reputation for C&D letters. The leniency shown to Mike and his pages doing conversions stands out in that context.

If an actual policy has changed, that would be interesting to hear.

 Forar wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
It's a violation of Forums of the Megaverse rules to make posts containing, requesting or promoting the conversions of others IP to a Palladium game system. That rule has been in place since before 2000.

He posted about his rules on Palladium and I had to give him a warning.

What you do here is up to Dakka Dakka's moderators to make their call about.

Oh? So PB has softened their stance on using their terms/properties and conversions to and from them?

Because this seems pretty clear on those matters, requiring the appropriate trademark/copyright symbols and on conversions being verboten.

Not that I'm trying to pick a fight or get Mike into trouble, but let's not be coy, PB has a reputation for C&D letters. The leniency shown to Mike and his pages doing conversions stands out in that context.

If an actual policy has changed, that would be interesting to hear.

Almost got one already for "Malcontent" dice. Still have not seen PB make any. Remember.....they are solo busycwith wave two. All their energy goes towards that.....unless they need to print some Rifts rag, work on an RPG book, whittle themselves a wooden statue to the Rifts gods etc....

Hi Mike

For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?

Also in the PB forums, any necroed thread gets immeadietly locked permanently. Im guessing followed soon after by summary execution.

evilsmurf wrote:
Also in the PB forums, any necroed thread gets immeadietly locked permanently. Im guessing followed soon after by summary execution.

Locking a necroed thread and issuing a warning either official or just in thread is normal and also happens here. Palladium's conversion policy and overalk IP stance is not. Kevin Siembieda hilariously tried to trademark "Necron" a decade back for an undead space race. Apparently doing a simple web search is NOT a part of the rigorous process he uses to determine what words he claims to own.

Joyboozer wrote:
Hi Mike

For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?

An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.

Make or made, Mike? Are you saying ND is still *present tense* making the decisions?

 Mike1975 wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Hi Mike

For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?

An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.

Actually Mike even PB said they made changes to the designs and sent them back to ND, in their updates.

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Hi Mike

For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?

An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.

Actually Mike even PB said they made changes to the designs and sent them back to ND, in their updates.

That's just stretching and dumb dude. PB has no ability with 3D modeling. They were referring to adjusting sizes, details and asking ND to alter the 3D models to better portray the drawings. ND did the work. It's like me seeing a picture and seeing a mech with the arms to small and telling the artist to adjust it some.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Hi Mike

For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?

An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.

Actually Mike even PB said they made changes to the designs and sent them back to ND, in their updates.

That's just stretching and dumb dude. PB has no ability with 3D modeling. They were referring to adjusting sizes, details and asking ND to alter the 3D models to better portray the drawings. ND did the work. It's like me seeing a picture and seeing a mech with the arms to small and telling the artist to adjust it some.

and thats just like PB having the factory (not the original one ND suggested) do the cuts, ND sent the designs as solid pieces with minimal designs, the factory cut them up, thats why all the #D drawings of the splits were from the factory, not ND.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Hi Mike

For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?

An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.

But Wayne was being told the cuts were terrible in the comments when he bothered to post picks. If Palladium had bothered listening to backers at any point instead of labelling them haterz, it should have been obvious.
WRRD must have some experience building miniatures, did they never ask him for an opinion?
It seems like what you are trying to say us is that ND gave the final ok, but as you pointed out when we all complained about the ND/ Palladium bait and switch, everyone should have known Palladium would be in charge.
So, it doesn't really matter who gave the OK, if Palladium had updated more, listened to feedback, and not been in a rush for gencon, we wouldn't be in this situation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, going further, are we to take this blame ND stance as to why Palladium need to relaunch? It will be ND free?
Some pathetic attempt by Palladium to relaunch the game with a hinted at notion that all its problems were because of a third party, and assurances that they are no longer involved, so that this time around everything will be absolutely mouth watering and the best possible product, everyone says so?

Don't forget cheapness. If there's one overriding factor with these people (apart from incompetence, and fan-friends telling them their poop smells like roses), it's cheapness.

Always cheapness.

Merijeek wrote:
Don't forget cheapness. If there's one overriding factor with these people (apart from incompetence, and fan-friends telling them their poop smells like roses), it's cheapness.
Always cheapness.

Definitely.

Another rather annoying trait about companies like PB, Prodos, or DP9, et al, is that more often than not even the decision to be their ''enemy'' in the first place is taken away from most everyone individually or as a group type.
Such organizations decide whenever or wherever for whatever ''reasons'' either directly, or indirectly through the inevitable fan-friends of convenience, who is and isn't a detractor (I.E. filthy hater) and by so doing turn self-justifying perception into self-fulfilling reality.

It's kind of like trying to counter terrorism with terror; by the time whomever has bombed their village yet again or renditioned umpteen family members into unmonitored interrogation, if there wasn't hardcore feelings and/or actual hostile intent against those responsible there soon will be anyways.

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 warboss wrote:
Make or made, Mike? Are you saying ND is still *present tense* making the decisions?

ND has been out of things for a while. They did what they thought they needed to and ran.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Hi Mike

For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?

An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.

But Wayne was being told the cuts were terrible in the comments when he bothered to post picks. If Palladium had bothered listening to backers at any point instead of labelling them haterz, it should have been obvious.
WRRD must have some experience building miniatures, did they never ask him for an opinion?
It seems like what you are trying to say us is that ND gave the final ok, but as you pointed out when we all complained about the ND/ Palladium bait and switch, everyone should have known Palladium would be in charge.
So, it doesn't really matter who gave the OK, if Palladium had updated more, listened to feedback, and not been in a rush for gencon, we wouldn't be in this situation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

In fact, going further, are we to take this blame ND stance as to why Palladium need to relaunch? It will be ND free?
Some pathetic attempt by Palladium to relaunch the game with a hinted at notion that all its problems were because of a third party, and assurances that they are no longer involved, so that this time around everything will be absolutely mouth watering and the best possible product, everyone says so?

Never said PB was not at fault, just that this whitewash that it is all on them....I don't agree with it. If MY name was on something, you'd be sure that I would make sure it was a decent product in my mind. I would not let PB put my name one something as central as the minis and let the things turned to crap without asking to have my name removed from the product. ND, in my mind, took off and dissapeared way to quick and cleanly and with what seems to be little protest. Now that being said, I've never said the Lion's share of the fault was on PB. Although a large and growing percentage is as time goes to PB as they continue to muck things up and make them worse and worse. Regardless, both share a good deal of fault IMHO and only the end game will reveal how much and what percentage we can apportion and where.

The relaunch IMO is just another gimmick to buy time and pretend things will change. Until I hear actual information of what the relaunch will entail, it is just so much smoke.

They did take off quick, and as I've said before, can easily see ND playing it sleazy.
But say they were legit, what was the alternative? If you had the option to get out or keep dealing with Palladium, wouldn't you take the out?
You mentioned how you got tired of dealing with Wayne, how would it have gone if he's tardiness was costing you business hours rather than just wasting your time?

Joyboozer wrote:
Hi Mike

For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?

The only case of a designer making cuts that I know of is DFG where the designer/owner told the WGF guys where to make/improve the cuts after they passed him the cuts they already made. It seems that it's common factory practice for factories to make the cuts from models and then send them for approval rather than designers making the cuts, no matter what Palladium or Kevin says.

 Smilodon_UP wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Don't forget cheapness. If there's one overriding factor with these people (apart from incompetence, and fan-friends telling them their poop smells like roses), it's cheapness.
Always cheapness.

Definitely.

Another rather annoying trait about companies like PB, Prodos, or DP9, et al, is that more often than not even the decision to be their ''enemy'' in the first place is taken away from most everyone individually or as a group type.
Such organizations decide whenever or wherever for whatever ''reasons'' either directly, or indirectly through the inevitable fan-friends of convenience, who is and isn't a detractor (I.E. filthy hater) and by so doing turn self-justifying perception into self-fulfilling reality.

Kind of like demanding people prove a negative with proprietary documents, and if people can't do that (and no, they can't), clearly it isn't their hero's fault?

 Mike1975 wrote:


ND has been out of things for a while. They did what they thought they needed to and ran.

Thanks for the clarification.

The relaunch IMO is just another gimmick to buy time and pretend things will change. Until I hear actual information of what the relaunch will entail, it is just so much smoke.

I definitely agree with that. The "relaunch", like the scale discussion and conventional vehicles, will likely just be another temporary distraction (jazz hands in Forar's parlance) and will probably only include expansions and products that are NOT under the scope of the kickstarter, half of which were promised to be released free this past summer. I do NOT expect the wave 2 kickstarter rewards to be a part of this next sham but rather the wave 2 paper standees and conventional vehicle rules that are months late already and probably the "advanced rules" book for sale that will be the lynchpin of this "relaunch". Oh, and the "exclusive" minis will be available for everyone yet again assuming that they're at some point made not available after months of grab bag inclusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
They did take off quick, and as I've said before, can easily see ND playing it sleazy.
But say they were legit, what was the alternative? If you had the option to get out or keep dealing with Palladium, wouldn't you take the out?
You mentioned how you got tired of dealing with Wayne, how would it have gone if he's tardiness was costing you business hours rather than just wasting your time?

That is a good point. If Mike got tired of dealing with Wayne for only a small set of optional rules after a few phone calls, I can imagine that dealing with them on the main KS rewards on a daily basis was probably much more taxing. Doing what they were contractually obligated to and possibly over until they realized it wouldn't stop and then saying enough is enough is reasonable potentially from their perspective. ND was at the time already in deep water for their own KS that they screwed up themselves and likely doing free revisions/work apparently outside of the scope of their contract (constant revisions? managing post KS communications? free packing/shipping labor?) was probably a relatively low priority.

Even somebody as detail oriented and control freaky (in a good way) as Adam at Kingdom Death has the factory make the cuts on his plastic models,

the people who make the cuts are specialists and even his high end sculptors are not trained (well enough) in this activity,

however once the cuts have been made he goes over the results with a fine toothed comb to ensure they make sense in regards to what he wants to achieve..... so removing cuts in the middle of fine details, sprue gates on faces etc

the professional cutters will do what makes most sense in terms of fitting stuff in a certain sprue area and will allow the plastic to flow properly to fill the mould, but they may well not understand the details of what matters in terms of where the cuts are made, where the gates are placed etc, that's down to the end user to specify

A "re-launch" is just another way for PB to make old product "seem like new!".
It is like trying to make a first impression... again.
I think they genuinely want to try to flog RRT for all it's worth since it is stock on-hand.
The distraction from wave2 would be a pleasant bonus but I think they may be past that pretense by now.

Oh lookie! It has been over two months and a day since our last KS update!

I find the blame-game of ND and PB kind of odd.
Not having sufficient knowledge on a given subject will not prevent someone from being able to manage a project successfully.
I would think ND being accountable for fault is completely based on the terms of their contract.
PB's lack of knowledge or oversight are both items that could have been easily remedied at their end so I still think they are accountable and at fault no matter what.
You would think PB would scream blue-murder otherwise.

Despite being on the topic of PB and pretty much being turned against them myself, every business should perform "due diligence" and research any new endeavor.
It is always wonderful to engage the "experts" but it is always good to learn all you can so you can spot when things are not right.
I have reviewed so many businesses where people would say "I have done this for 20 years! I know what I am doing."
Which you must always assume they have not learned a thing during that time.
They know how to make things really well with 20 year old technology.

BUT in the end, we are not told squat about wave 2 other than half-baked assurances.
I would not be surprised to receive my models in high quality dental plaster. <edit> If at all, and only during threat of government intervention of the nasty kind.

I like the comparison to making a first impression again.

As for ND and PB... I agree that ND likely screwed up in 2013 and possibly early 2014 behind the scenes. They had a history of an ongoing screw up with Relic Knights at the time so their record was hardly spotless. The difference though is that they seemed to have learned their lesson(s) judging from their actions and accomplishments since whereas Palladium has not and continues to make the same mistakes over and over. Even if ND was entirely (or... say... 98%) responsible for the initial screwups, Palladium has had now AT LEAST one full calendar year to recognize, address, and correct the lingering effects since ND waved goodbye. The reality is that they've had two full years since the mistakes were made public at spartangate and the wave split and 2 1/2 years since Palladium themselves admitted they knew about the scope of the cluster feth. That is more than enough time for a team of semi-competent people to correct those initial mistakes multiple times over.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Never said PB was not at fault, just that this whitewash that it is all on them....I don't agree with it. If MY name was on something, you'd be sure that I would make sure it was a decent product in my mind. I would not let PB put my name one something as central as the minis and let the things turned to crap without asking to have my name removed from the product. ND, in my mind, took off and dissapeared way to quick and cleanly and with what seems to be little protest. Now that being said, I've never said the Lion's share of the fault was on PB. Although a large and growing percentage is as time goes to PB as they continue to muck things up and make them worse and worse. Regardless, both share a good deal of fault IMHO and only the end game will reveal how much and what percentage we can apportion and where.

This comes across as splitting hairs, Mike. Nobody sensible that I've seen is proclaiming PB the devil nor ND saints beyond reproach, but as has been brought up again and again, if one team is doing the work and the other is signing off on it (PB and HG), the lions share ends up with the people who signed off (at least) on what was done, if not actively directed the workers towards the end result. Some keep stating that ND 'ran away', when it seems equally (if not more) likely that they completed their obligations and washed their hands of dealing with PB further, which is an entirely sensible thing to do.

As was discussed pages ago, arguing repeatedly whether PB is 90% at fault or 80% at fault is pointless, the end results of stagnation and transparent attempts at obfuscation are on them. When we're finally told that Q2 is no longer even an ideal but 'guys why not buy some core boxes and exclusives while waiting for the new totally firm target of Black Friday 2016!' it'll still settle on their shoulders. As you point out they seem to be flailing about to grasp onto any distraction they can get their hands on, "ND betraaaaaayed ussssss!" just being one along the way that has few direct refutations, due to ND's ongoing silence on the matter.

We'll probably never know where the exact breakdowns lay. One side is an unreliable narrator known for self-aggrandizement and minimization of fault, the other has been silent to the point of an NDA (or some other contractual obligation) potentially being involved. I think ND pulling all references to RRT from their site and list of supported games is plenty of distancing themselves, wouldn't you? Frankly they may not have any say what goes on the packaging and whatnot going forward; they did the work, the layout is done, what makes it reasonable to think they have the kind of pull/clout to get that changed?

The only way we'll get a full point by point breakdown would be if someone really went to work on them legally (over this or something else that ended up cracking open the books), or if such a contract was broken, voided, or otherwise ended, at which point I'd love to get a full blown tell-all from someone on the inside.

Look, maybe it's nitpicking of my own, but part of the communication issue here comes down to using absolutes. It's never "I think ND fethed them in an uncomfortable place", it's "ND fethed them." It's not "maybe _____", it's almost always stated definitively, and as someone who has spoken to Kevin and Wayne and others on the project, who has been on calls, that comes across as muddying the waters between opinion and knowledge of fact. Further complicated because Kevin and co have cried wolf so many times that being told of another dastardly betrayal simply doesn't carry much weight.

I know I'm *very* conscious of what I state as opinion. I try to cite my sources, to show the train of thought or connections that led from A to B to C. Maybe that's just my anal retentive side showing, but your inclusion in aspects of the project make it hard to separate "this is what Mike thinks" versus "this is what Mike knows, but probably shouldn't be saying out loud, or cannot provide sourcing for... or the sourcing is Kevin so take with a fatal level of salt."

Edit: also, my thread on the PB forums is gone. :-(

 Forar wrote:
Some keep stating that ND 'ran away', when it seems equally (if not more) likely that they completed their obligations and washed their hands of dealing with PB further, which is an entirely sensible thing to do.

You know what? ND "ran away" from Prodos, after completing their distribution obligations and washed their hands of dealing with further dealing with Prodos. Equally sensible to run away screaming from the AvP mess. But you know what? I bet there's a Prodos white knight who's arguing that the US distribution is ND's fault...

I haven't seen one likely because they publicly bailed before ever receiving a single item (iirc prodos didn't ship to them for weeks after the announcement naming them as distributor and giving a date). Like I said... They've apparently learned a least a partial lesson after dealing with Palladium although they shouldn't have gotten mixed up at all with AVP if they had completely learned it. All they need to do now is volunteer to handle layout and production for Mekton Zero's kickstarter and the circle of suck is complete.

Wait, ND could relaunch the KS for HG's Robotech relaunch... That would be the ultimate cherry on the gak sandwich.

OTOH, if we look at actual US-oriented anime, the Animeigo BGC KS seems to have done pretty well, delivering with extras in Dec. '14 vs. estimated target Aug '14. Backers pretty happy with it, too. Too bad I didn't back that instead of this...

We all understand the pain:

 warboss wrote:
All they need to do now is volunteer to handle layout and production for Mekton Zero's kickstarter and the circle of suck is complete.

I think they're still looking for someone to do the miniatures.

Say what you will about Mekton Zero's KS (and there's a lot to say), they're at least offering refunds to unsatisfied backers.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Wait, ND could relaunch the KS for HG's Robotech relaunch... That would be the ultimate cherry on the gak sandwich.

OTOH, if we look at actual US-oriented anime, the Animeigo BGC KS seems to have done pretty well, delivering with extras in Dec. '14 vs. estimated target Aug '14. Backers pretty happy with it, too. Too bad I didn't back that instead of this...

Thanks for posting about that. I hadn't seen it, and BGC is probably my all time favorite outside Robotech.