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I think the bigger point to take from that is "IF that was all the good that was going to come PB's way, what is the situation for them now after the unholy gak-up that the KS turned out to be?"

I can't see them being able to make a profit of the KS for many years. Even if they banked the unused portion of the funds, the interest on that is not going to pay for the increased costs from splitting shipping, delays, and what must be multiple revisions of remaining rewards.

It's more likely that they will end up worse off after this, but that will not worry me. I now have my SDF-1 [bigger, better, more detailed than PB's efforts stand much of a chance of being] and a Robotech Changer Vexar model as a good sized Skull 1. Who knows, I may even be able to get my hands on the trainer variant so I can make them both into a diorama.

But I positively WON'T worry about wave 2 [although I may well look into a complaint here in Britain.] and I certainly won't be getting the VF box I wanted to try 'real world' and 'manga style' paint jobs on them. PB wouldn't get a wooden nickel from me in future.

 Mike1975 wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.

No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....

Did Kevin seemed surprised about that "thank you"? I don't have my Powers Unlimited books anymore (sold them years ago) but IIRC at least in Villains Unlimited others were credited individually for certain powers but that was Kevin Siembieda as author and not Carmen.

I had heard about his board game but no one ever posted pictures to my knowledge so I can't comment about that (and never played Talisman anyways). IIRC, that was the same Open House though that Kevin took his super secret you didn't know you were voting during a casual chat with him "poll" and came up with 99% of rifts fans being happy with the rifts rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n815e wrote:
It's fuzzy.
I'm not accusing them of anything, I'm just pointing out that prior to the KS they wrote what could be taken as admission that they planned on using the funds for other things as well as the KS.

It's up to any subsequent lawsuit to determine if that is true.

In my decided NOT a lawyer but I watch Judge Judy the Bully occasionally view, he could claim SOME of the day to day operating costs of his business from lawn care to the electric bill to payroll but it would have to be commensurate with the percentage of time he spends on RRPGT overall. I could however see a company that is always on the edge of the next crisis of treachery using the big Robotech fund to just much more than that real percentage despite not actually putting in the proportionate amount of work daily (as evidenced by ZERO public progress on wave two rewards fulfilled in the past year).

Either way, Rick will start peeling back the layers on the onion of deceit in just a few weeks when he files his oft mentioned and delayed lawsuit so we'll know soon enough.

 Mike1975 wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.

No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....

You may have very narrowly got those rules axed for pointing that out.
I suspect Kevin can barely tolerate ideas from those "close to him" (or receiving his guidance) never mind another step or two removed.

 warboss wrote:

Either way, Rick will start peeling back the layers on the onion of deceit in just a few weeks when he files his oft mentioned and delayed lawsuit so we'll know soon enough.

Legal Tsunami©®™ shoutout!!!

 Mike1975 wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.

No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....

Interesting, I wonder how this applies to the original rules having to be completely rewritten...

 Talizvar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.

No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....

You may have very narrowly got those rules axed for pointing that out.
I suspect Kevin can barely tolerate ideas from those "close to him" (or receiving his guidance) never mind another step or two removed.

I was polite when I pointed it out and actually was only annoyed. I only asked for recognition for working them up. Then to see the "preview" that Carmen wrote up and had his signature on and like 80% or more was word for word what I had done with some help from the great guys on the FB page, that needed to be pointed out. I did so and from what I understand Kevin was surprised and had Carmen apologize for in a group where we discussed those and other rules. That's it. Carmen may have made a mistake, maybe not, but I felt it needed to be pointed out, so I did.

Yay!!! Lawsuit!! Go get 'em!!

Even if I never see a dime back, I would still be happy knowing that he didn't have my money either. Rater than being stolen it would go to one standing up for a righteous cause

File soon and be our hero...

Joyboozer wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.

No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....

Interesting, I wonder how this applies to the original rules having to be completely rewritten...

When Carmen changed a few things, I found some horrible inbalances in points. 4 A-10's for example cost as much as a squadron of 2 Tomahawks and 2 Defenders. I ran that through my cost calcs and said no way. I did a re-write but I did not take in to account the sheer number of minis and actual dollar cost to build a squadron. I was asked to make some changes. I did and sent it to PB. I think it took me 2 weeks to make all the changes since I made squadrons smaller and redid all the cards. Since I sent cards and not text stats it was confusing to them since they could not understand them (another sure sign of them not really knowing the rules at all).

I think the initial hopes for sales drooped as the sales were not looking that good. Problem was they rushed to present something that was half-finished, or rather, had not been discussed by a group but only by two people as far as I knew. Then I put a hold on it since I wanted it down right.

Later, it looked like the sales had slumped since the promised rules were not made a priority and not reviewed quickly so they could be released. The lack of rules cause sales to slump. The lack of sales caused the desire of PB to do things quickly to slump and whammo....no progress and extreme frustration on my part.

Thankfully in the end, Jaymz said screw it and posted the rules up for everyone. Too late to effect sales since everyone can buy just about everything directly from GHQ for a cheaper price. If PB stopped seeing pure dollars and saw that this would have been a good will project to pump up RRT they could have let GHQ sell the minis and simply made some cards and sold those online for a small price and still made some $. In fact that is what I had suggested. Instead this became another nail in the coffin....

And now I'm completely swapped over to writing, building and playtesting my Skirmish version of RRT.

 Mike1975 wrote:
And now I'm completely swapped over to writing, building and playtesting my Skirmish version of RRT.

Would it be irony if Mikerobotech Tactics had a tournament at the next Adpeticon but there wasn't an official one?

Because it feels like it'd be irony.

LOL, Skirmish is different enough....it's made for smaller games.

Lose the fixed squadrons....you still have them but you make your own.

You can use squads or individual units. Only Squads can use Close Formation.

A few rules mechanics changes (Anti-Missile for one)

Then reduced Command Points but introduces Tokens and Action Points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still need to playtest it though

I've been watching this thread (and the previous one) play out over the course of many many pages, and i've just got to say that this is almost as engaging as watching the original robotech saga. Action, suspense, drama, humour, cool looking mecha. Although this is actually happening in real life, so i hope it works out for everyone. My advice - the longer you wait to reclaim your money, the less chance you'll ever see it again. I got burned by a business who kept giving me delays and excuses right up until the paypal limit expired, then i got silence. Its been what, over 2 years now? Sometimes acting in good faith and being willing to accept 'unforeseen/unfortunate' circumstances will just get you burned. Good luck.

 Torga_DW wrote:
I've been watching this thread (and the previous one) play out over the course of many many pages, and i've just got to say that this is almost as engaging as watching the original robotech saga. Action, suspense, drama, humour, cool looking mecha. Although this is actually happening in real life, so i hope it works out for everyone. My advice - the longer you wait to reclaim your money, the less chance you'll ever see it again. I got burned by a business who kept giving me delays and excuses right up until the paypal limit expired, then i got silence. Its been what, over 2 years now? Sometimes acting in good faith and being willing to accept 'unforeseen/unfortunate' circumstances will just get you burned. Good luck.

It's definitely an entertaining run, especially for those not financially tied to the project, or willing to write off their pledge in exchange for the LOL's.

As for the reclamation prospects, that's only going to happen for a small number of backers. Getting money back via established means (chargeback on Credit Cards for example) are well past the typical 60/90/120 day limit they usually offer. Some people have had luck going beyond that, with a particularly friendly bank, but most will disallow it. It's currently been 2 1/4 years since people got charged by the Pledge Manager, and it's over 2 1/2 if you didn't add to your order from the initial campaign.

The only way I can see anyone recovering funds, is if they do personal individual complaints/demands/suits (and those can be expensive and aren't guaranteed success). People hoping for some kind of class action that they can get in on without much work/expenditure are going to get pennies on the dollar if they get anything. While I don't think PB are necessarily bankrupt, or even don't have enough to actually manufacture Wave 2, I have significant doubt that after other creditors are factored in, they are incredibly unlikely to have the funds to refund backers the full amount. And if the individual suits are successful, and precedent on the issue is set, it'll set off a run, and a long slide into bankruptcy. Because beyond a few people who will write off their pledge for the sake of the company, noone wants to be left without a chair when the music stops.

As an example of what I mean, re costs vs refund, take the MACII Monster. Numbers used may not reflect reality, and are used for explanation purposes only.
Say on average just over half the backers bought one. Some bought multiples, some bought one, some bought none. So, 3000 Monsters for backer fulfillment.
Let's say the Monster is 3 sprues, and each sprue is $20K. And manufacturing and shipping of those sprues is another $20K. And then another $10K for shipping to backers (as part of a larger order. So, that's $90K for expenditure.
Refunding backers would cost ~$110-$120K. So that's $20K-$30K loss by offering a refund. Apply that across all of the outstanding items, and take into account the inability to make more for much less (ie, the first 3000 Monsters cost $90K, the second 3000 will only cost $20K), and PB offering refunds at this stage seems like a non-starter.

quick anyone know if PB will even be at Adepticon next year?

Asterios wrote:
quick anyone know if PB will even be at Adepticon next year?

They're on the "sponsor" page which looks alot like an exhibitor list.

http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=17



Are you planning on serving them with your lawsuit there if they keep ducking your for the months before? If you serve them at adepticon, get it on video and post it along with what your discovery phase reveals. We've been waiting all of 2015 for you to unleash your roaring caged legal beast.

Was just reviewing a few things about kickstarters.

First I started here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter
Great quote here:
"Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill."

So I stumble into an article on how it gets easier to sue:
http://valleywag.gawker.com/it-just-got-easier-to-sue-failed-kickstarter-campaigns-1637720027

Then an article on the FTC with their change on timely delivery:
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/ftc-internet-shopping-refund-rule/

Actual FTC rule here:
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/09/17/2014-22092/mail-or-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

For information, the precedence setting lawsuit for suing a kickstarter creator is here:
http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/2/5675834/washington-sues-card-game-developer-for-failing-to-deliver-on

ANYWAY I look at these kinds of articles to keep me from blowing my top when I hear these tired statements:
"Kickstarter is not a store!" - No, it is a place where people hock their stuff and we are expected to go after them if it goes bad.
"You are investing in a dream!" - We help it along but the FTC has proven that "rewards" are not an optional thing to deliver.
"You are lucky if you get anything at all!" - Lucky no, the creators hope we think that, there are some truly risky things to back but PB is not some guy working out of his garage... though it is really looking like it. Words like "best effort" seem to be lost and being well past the initial delivery date and being progressively more vague on finish date will run them afoul of the new FTC ammendments.

I just cannot understand how it is expected that out of the goodness of our heart we give our money for a project with the "expectation" we may not see a single thing out of it.
A "creator" assumes little risk as long as a nebulous "best effort" is proven.

Then people gleefully point out when things fail that we are suckers for backing things with no guarantee.
I maintain that if some kind of checks and balances are not maintained I have no good reason to back any kickstarter ever again.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
GAH! the dreaded double post!

 warboss wrote:

Asterios wrote:
quick anyone know if PB will even be at Adepticon next year?

They're on the "sponsor" page which looks alot like an exhibitor list.

http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=17



Are you planning on serving them with your lawsuit there if they keep ducking your for the months before? If you serve them at adepticon, get it on video and post it along with what your discovery phase reveals. We've been waiting all of 2015 for you to unleash your roaring caged legal beast.

being on the sponsor page doesn't mean anything , it means they donated something to the gift bag, but as it goes do a search of events and their name doesn't even show up.

 warboss wrote:

Asterios wrote:
quick anyone know if PB will even be at Adepticon next year?

They're on the "sponsor" page which looks alot like an exhibitor list.

http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=17

From the correspondence I got from Adepticon when I asked earlier this week, 1) Submissions for events were finalized on October 2nd, 2) Palladium have no events listed, and 3) Palladium are in the vendor hall, and may run demos there.

So they at least made the effort to show up for the money making side of things. But failed to do, or get someone else to do, the community building side of things.

Morgan Vening wrote:
The only way I can see anyone recovering funds, is if they do personal individual complaints/demands/suits (and those can be expensive and aren't guaranteed success). People hoping for some kind of class action that they can get in on without much work/expenditure are going to get pennies on the dollar if they get anything. While I don't think PB are necessarily bankrupt, or even don't have enough to actually manufacture Wave 2, I have significant doubt that after other creditors are factored in, they are incredibly unlikely to have the funds to refund backers the full amount. And if the individual suits are successful, and precedent on the issue is set, it'll set off a run, and a long slide into bankruptcy. Because beyond a few people who will write off their pledge for the sake of the company, noone wants to be left without a chair when the music stops..

A class action could work out in PBs favor. Many class actions allow actual product or service to be offered to the class in lieu of cash payments (not that the non-exemplars get much anyway), such as the recent Sony class actions.
So a successful class action may look at 200K+ to the lead attorneys, tens of thousands to the exemplars.. .and then everyone else gets a choice of $5, a RTT starter or a Rifter.

Palladium seems illiquid enough that even a (low) total of 400-500K cash award could hurt them, but they would get to liquidate (and write off) their non selling product and remove cause of action from the vast majority of backers.

In contrast the Rick legal tsunami could maybe cost them 25K or so, but if its successful and more and more backers follow that route it would be death by a thousand cuts. Though I suppose he could always get a court order compelling manufacture of wave 2...
The real harm to PB would be a regulator getting involved & brining suit. While on the back end to us backers the results will be on par with a class action, a regulator could easily tack on a million or more in fines and the possibility of actual criminal penalties rather than just civil.

So I guess keep sending in those complaints?

 Talizvar wrote:
Then an article on the FTC with their change on timely delivery:
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/ftc-internet-shopping-refund-rule/

Actual FTC rule here:
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/09/17/2014-22092/mail-or-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Those are really interesting, and they do tend to cover pre-orders (the whole "listed date, or now + 30"). It's unclear as yet as to if Kickstarter falls into that category yet, from a legal perspective.

The next time someone contacts the BBB or FTC or AG, they should probably ask as part of the request for refund, something like "If no refund is available at this time, can a date be supplied that will constitute a 'time stated' under section I of the "Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise" Rule, or should the 30 days for no time stated be counted as of receipt of this request?"

One of the most frustrating things is PB continuing to slide the release date, with zero accountability and seemingly no expectation of having to work on stuff, especially given the release dates are so unrealistic. At no point in the last year plus, have I believed there was any chance of them accomplishing a stated release date. Not October 2014 when stated in January 2014, not End of 2015 when stated in April, not EoQ1 2016 when stated in July, and not EoQ2 2016 when stated recently. Heck, even the vagueness of sometime in 2016 I consider at best "possible but unlikely".

More than anything, forcing PB to have to stick to a specific date or be required (by that rule) to issue refunds, will either get people their money back, or force PB to give a REALISTIC date, and actually have a deadline to complete by, without going off on flights of fancy to do other stuff.

Gencon 2017?
Gencon 2020?
I am looking at the section where if the revised date is unsuitable a refund is to be given.
But PB is very clear on "NO REFUNDS!" but as FTC document states in it's objectives is for a refund to be given if the shipping date is not agreeable.
The FTC stance is that PB is on the hook for the rewards so all that is left is a form of "statute of limitations" but a bit in reverse: How long can they claim they SHALL ship until they are afoul of some limit?
A decade?

 Talizvar wrote:
Gencon 2017?
Gencon 2020?
I am looking at the section where if the revised date is unsuitable a refund is to be given.
But PB is very clear on "NO REFUNDS!" but as FTC document states in it's objectives is for a refund to be given if the shipping date is not agreeable.
The FTC stance is that PB is on the hook for the rewards so all that is left is a form of "statute of limitations" but a bit in reverse: How long can they claim they SHALL ship until they are afoul of some limit?
A decade?

actually they are afoul, they were 30 days after December 13 2013, now people have ti file with the FTC if they want their money refunded or a lawsuit, but sitting on their rears will get nothing done and waiting too long will leave them with nothing since PB will have nothing left after the FTC gets done with them and refunds all those who filed with them.

Asterios wrote:

actually they are afoul, they were 30 days after December 13 2013, now people have ti file with the FTC if they want their money refunded or a lawsuit, but sitting on their rears will get nothing done and waiting too long will leave them with nothing since PB will have nothing left after the FTC gets done with them and refunds all those who filed with them.

I agree that folks like me who are waiting will be most at risk of getting nothing. I'm counting on the pathfinders like yourself as the "ringleader" to pave the way with your lawsuit coming up in just a few weeks.

 Talizvar wrote:
Gencon 2017?
Gencon 2020?
I am looking at the section where if the revised date is unsuitable a refund is to be given.
But PB is very clear on "NO REFUNDS!" but as FTC document states in it's objectives is for a refund to be given if the shipping date is not agreeable.
The FTC stance is that PB is on the hook for the rewards so all that is left is a form of "statute of limitations" but a bit in reverse: How long can they claim they SHALL ship until they are afoul of some limit?
A decade?

Gencon 2017, Gencon 2020, at least people would have a date, rather than the current nebulous "pregnancy* of soon".
* Because each release date seems to be 9 months from the date of announcement.

Might be worth adding "If the responding date of completion exceeds the statute of limitations, what happens then?". The FTC should have an answer there, and I'd expect it to be that the limitation won't start until after the passing of the date of completion.

Again, it won't be a good answer, but it'd pin down PB so they can't continue to weasle further into the future, as they have for the last 18 months. And if they do give some kind of ambit bulldrek claim like Gencon 2020, they get to be harangued publicly for that too. Basically, it forces them to have to look at what they can do, and give a realistic timetable. And that's really the first step. That's assuming the FTC don't see an ambit claim and turn around and go "Sorry, not good enough, give a more realistic one, or start issuing refunds to those who want it".

First step is pinning PB's foot to the floor.

Asterios wrote:
actually they are afoul, they were 30 days after December 13 2013, now people have ti file with the FTC if they want their money refunded or a lawsuit, but sitting on their rears will get nothing done and waiting too long will leave them with nothing since PB will have nothing left after the FTC gets done with them and refunds all those who filed with them.

Would I be a bad person if I feel happy my money is lost to the FTC if PB is found guilty?
Write it off as "public service" money to help pay those who are willing to take the time to set PB's customer service practices on fire.
While you are looking around I am still unsure how a Canadian can jump on that bandwagon since my government seems clueless.
So if there is room to "file" with the FTC I am game, probably not near as dry and useless as the BBB claims.

Yep, it is a crime to take someone's money and keep it for yourself without delivering a product. I would rather see my funds in the pockets of those who hold the evildoers accountable than to see the evildoers use it to buy cars, pay their bills, renovate their homes, etc.

I have seen KS campaigns fail that used all their money and could not deliver a product. Most of those had great communication, were honest, and literally failed due to scale and lack of funds. This is a different story. PB raised a ton of funds. They still have the funds (or used them personally and not for the project). They just stopped producing what we paid for and stopped communication. This shows intent... this shows a theft of a large sum of money from many different jurisdictions and countries... this means federal felonious crime.

Dust had a failed campaign that was similar, but lawsuits are harder as Dust Studios is in China. They still delivered everything but the freebies that were promised, PB hasn't even delivered all that was paid for.

 Talizvar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
actually they are afoul, they were 30 days after December 13 2013, now people have ti file with the FTC if they want their money refunded or a lawsuit, but sitting on their rears will get nothing done and waiting too long will leave them with nothing since PB will have nothing left after the FTC gets done with them and refunds all those who filed with them.

Would I be a bad person if I feel happy my money is lost to the FTC if PB is found guilty?
Write it off as "public service" money to help pay those who are willing to take the time to set PB's customer service practices on fire.
While you are looking around I am still unsure how a Canadian can jump on that bandwagon since my government seems clueless.
So if there is room to "file" with the FTC I am game, probably not near as dry and useless as the BBB claims.

like I said i'm not in it for the money since all I have missing is like $120 so if the FTC takes the reigns no reason for me to do a suit, but have said that from the start that if the AG or FTC step in my part is done. I want PB held accountable above all else.

but like I said thats if either the AG or the FTC step up.

you can file with the FTC does not matter what country you are in, as long as the company is in the USA.

Great observation from the KS page:

"Michael Hansen
Insomnia & boredom led me to Palladium's newsletter (or whatever) for last week. I enjoyed this;

"This is the game Robotech® fans have wanted for decades."
This also appears to be the game that Robotech® fans will want for decades to come.

...hack comedy ahoy! I need to sleep so badly..."

Well, I sort of worked on some Robotech stuff this past week... for the Halo ship game. I kept the shiny overcoat on the models as a nod to the usual covenant paint scheme but I hope they resemble a slightly different misguided alien armada out to destroy earth! More pics and me pontificating at my blog sig link for those interested.

I just spent the passed two days sitting in a house that was imitating an island. I watched both my cars, both my tractors, all my chickens, and 16 acres of my godscursed property go from being fields to being a lake and I can tell you it didn't make me as upset as I still am at PB not delivering wave 2. Do you know why? Because I'll get new chickens come spring, they'll lay eggs in the summer, my insurance is going to cover the repairs on my cars, my tractors I'll be able to salvage with some time and my pile o' greenhouse can be torn down and rebuilt.

But getting this bloody wave 2 delivered is worse than being stuck in a flood.

Any other PNWers in here gonna give me an a'men?

The upside is that I packed in a week of firewood, had 2 weeks of water stores, 6 months of food, and 38 gallons of wine as well as tons of board games to keep me and my kid occupied. So...it wasn't all bad.

@darkminstrel: Funny how it is easier to accept an act of god than an act of a control freak. I think it says more about your temperament. Oh yeah: amen.
We can only hope the geese on their property turn on them.