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 Mike1975 wrote:
BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

Call me petty, but I will take what little "progress" I can get.
I did not find it "funny" you thought PB valued your opinion on things only to find out otherwise later... but we all have made some incorrect assumptions about those nutters.


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 Forar wrote:
When I called and talked to Chuck I was polite but noted my displeasure clearly. It's entirely possible to disagree with someone or a business without being a massive donkey cave about it.

I have typically found in a business setting being rude or worse, to swear is like giving permission to be ignored.
It is hard to hang-up or not give some plausible explanation when a person is presenting a grievance in a civilized way.
I still have too many people I deal with that seem to be looking for a dog to kick than to get their problem dealt with: they tend to forget the "dog" may bite.

 Mike1975 wrote:
BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

The only effect I could see the F rating having would be in the occasional future business dealings Palladium gets into outside of the gaming industry. If they apply for a business loan, a simple background check by the bank would reveal the F rating and complaints and affect their interest rate. If they partnered up with someone else to license Rifts outside of tabletop gaming, it may give the partner a bit of pause when evaluating the current popularity/reputation of the IP/company.

It won't have any noticeable effect on Palladium within the niche gaming industry though as their reputation has been tarnished for decades. The only positive commentary/discussion I see about anything Palladium Books online outside of their own forums is generally limited to talking about what was (in the 1980's and 90's) and not what is. If someone does a google search about Palladium, they'll likely find negative discussion about them on wierd sounding places like RPG.net (a site for rocket propelled grenades??) and some dakkadakka or something site (wtf?!? is that even English?). Most folks not into tabletop gaming will however recognize the BBB name and recognize the significance of the F rating even if they don't understand the intricacies of how to fudge the rating or the controversies around the BBB.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

Call me petty, but I will take what little "progress" I can get.
I did not find it "funny" you thought PB valued your opinion on things only to find out otherwise later... but we all have made some incorrect assumptions about those nutters.


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 Forar wrote:
When I called and talked to Chuck I was polite but noted my displeasure clearly. It's entirely possible to disagree with someone or a business without being a massive donkey cave about it.

I have typically found in a business setting being rude or worse, to swear is like giving permission to be ignored.
It is hard to hang-up or not give some plausible explanation when a person is presenting a grievance in a civilized way. I still have too many people I deal with that seem to be looking for a dog to kick than to get their problem dealt with: they tend to forget the "dog" may bite.

We tried the be nice to PB and did a 10 questions thing ages back. I helped put it together and posed it to PB after cleaning up some of the questions. I get ridiculed by some like Merijeek because PB actually responded. They responded to about 6 of the questions and ignored the rest, some of which I would have ignored too. Being polite was tried with mixed results. Being a jerk has been tried with pretty much Zero results to date. Go figure. Being nice gets you at least something. Being an ass gets you ignored.

Someone calls me screaming and I'm likely to ignore them too just like some guy named Zero did when he called PB directly a long time ago.



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 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

The only effect I could see the F rating having would be in the occasional future business dealings Palladium gets into outside of the gaming industry. If they apply for a business loan, a simple background check by the bank would reveal the F rating and complaints and affect their interest rate. If they partnered up with someone else to license Rifts outside of tabletop gaming, it may give the partner a bit of pause when evaluating the current popularity/reputation of the IP/company.

It won't have any noticeable effect on Palladium within the niche gaming industry though as their reputation has been tarnished for decades. The only positive commentary/discussion I see about anything Palladium Books online outside of their own forums is generally limited to talking about what was (in the 1980's and 90's) and not what is. If someone does a google search about Palladium, they'll likely find negative discussion about them on wierd sounding places like RPG.net (a site for rocket propelled grenades??) and some dakkadakka or something site (wtf?!? is that even English?). Most folks not into tabletop gaming will however recognize the BBB name and recognize the significance of the F rating even if they don't understand the intricacies of how to fudge the rating or the controversies around the BBB.

Agreed, and with PB's present financial state I don't see anyone giving them a loan regardless of the BBB rating, so in my estimation net results = zero.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Agreed, and with PB's present financial state I don't see anyone giving them a loan regardless of the BBB rating, so in my estimation net results = zero.

They have collateral in their IP as well as property (IIRC they own their building judging from posts back during the crisis of treachery!). They could get a loan but I suspect they'd have to secure it with something tangible. In any case, if they want to "fix" their rating back to an A, they'll have to pay $400 to become a member. The big fat F is largely a placebo effect for fans but I could also see it constantly prodding Kevin's ego.

Please. It's not like the BBB is Yelp.

Joyboozer wrote:
Jeffar, are what point would he become the moustache twirling villan?
When he keeps exhibiting the same behaviour no matter the effect on his customers?
When the amount of money becomes quite significant?
When years from now they're still working on wave 2?
Willing incompetence is not an excuse.

That's the point. I don't see this as willing. I see this mostly as an outgrowth of the long standing issues Palladium has demonstrated as long as I've been one of their customers. It's biting particularly hard this time because:

1) Money was laid out before product was delivered, which is not their standard business model
2) This project is a lot higher profile than anything they've done in years (decades even) which brings a lot of attention

I'm not saying that the situation isn't bad or that Palladium can be excused for their failures to meet commitments or their failures to communicate in a fashion appropriate to the situation. I'm also waiting on my Wave 2 and some answers.

I'm mostly objecting to the characterization of this being some sort of intentional fraud. That's what I meant by the mustache twirling part. I think Kevin wants to put this product out, but has run into something that he didn't expect. I just wish he'd start opening up in detail about what the delay is and what he's doing to get past it.

Jefffar wrote:
I'm mostly objecting to the characterization of this being some sort of intentional fraud. That's what I meant by the mustache twirling part. I think Kevin wants to put this product out, but has run into something that he didn't expect. I just wish he'd start opening up in detail about what the delay is and what he's doing to get past it.

His bruised pride and vindictive sulking after HIS company's massive failures is what folks refer to as the mustache twirling. His initial intentions may have been good but it doesn't excuse the lack of prepardness and public effort that have characterized this project since funding and led to an over 400% delay in fulfillment from the earliest "wild guess" (because using the word "estimate" requires that it be based initially in fact and not just day dreaming). When the failure was undeniable to all, he instead goes first on the offensive (china! ninja division! angry backers! they're the problem!).. when that doesn't work he tried smoke and mirrors (scale change! non-exclusive "exclusive" minis! vaporware conventional vehicle rules!)... and when that fails to steer the discussion away from the failure then he just clams up like a sulking child sitting in a corner after being caught redhanded. He's pretty much tried everything EXCEPT being open and honest. His intentions over three years ago when this project was first being "planned" (I hesitate to use that word) aren't the issue anymore but rather his actions after the failures first started piling up in the three years since. THAT is the mustache twirling villainy that folks refer to.

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the supposedly upcoming "relaunch" of the game? Do you think it will work?

Jefffar wrote:
I'm mostly objecting to the characterization of this being some sort of intentional fraud.

Except, it *IS* fraud.

Kevin took money based on promises to deliver, cannot / will not deliver, and refuses to give refunds for product not delivered.

That is pretty much a straight definition of fraud, pure and simple.


If it were as simple as a minor estimation error in production scheduling, we would have *ALL* product in hand by now.

Otherwise, we should have our money back.


What Kevin can't do is hold onto money indefinitely, and not do anything toward delivery.

And this latest claim of mental illness? That's fething bullgak. I don't give a feth about his mental state.


Deliver or refund. Simple as that.

Jeffar, he has lied numerous times during this project. Not made a mistake or was given the wrong information, he flat out lied, knowing he was lying, then tried to cover for it later (and failing in the process).

Part of the problem here, imo, has always been proportionality.

If a 1 month project is a year late, that's a big deal.

If a 2 year project is 6 months late, that's not nearly as big a deal.

We're talking an allegedly half year project that's probably going to butt up against the 3 to 3.5 year mark (or longer). 7 months becoming 36-42+ is where they lose what little leeway they might have otherwise had remaining.

It's part of managing expectations, something that they can faceplant on as much as they want with RPG books, but when money has changed hands already, it's not acceptable for them to just faff about at it for as long as they like.

We've had it pointed out (here, on the KS comments, on PB's forums) that campaigns are often late, but if you look deeper, it is my experience that campaigns who transparently *tell* backers what is going on fare better than those that try to hide it. I was a backer for Wyrd's RPG, that was scheduled to deliver in about 3 quarters of a year, and took 2 (to fully deliver, most of the stuff was mailed out around the 1.75 mark). They were silent for months on end, and had to be poked and prodded regularly for responses.

And they got lambasted over it. Obviously they're still in business, it's not like it was a mortal wound, but it absolutely tarnished my view of how they do business.

Contrasted against Kingdom Death, which was around 2 years late, and pulled in even more money than this, but while I'm sure there were those that got frustrated, I haven't seen nearly the same ongoing pervasive negative responses. Why? Because they delivered a product that many seem happy with, AND they would deliver minor novels of updates on a (I believe) regular basis.

If PB were dropping 19 page giant updates every couple of months filled with details of production and their snags and resolutions, I think the base would be much more charitable. Instead they hide behind "people are mean to us!" and have spent over 10 months making vague assertions rather than providing information.

I even pointed this out to Chuck, and he responded that the response from the community (regarding the February sprue breakdown images) had been highly negative, but directed straight to them (phone calls and emails and whatnot). Honestly, while not wishing to call him a liar, I find it hard to believe that the response was a fraction as bad. Go look at those updates, literally THOUSANDS of responses.

The February update has 200, most of which are generally positive or at least constructive.

Forar, Palladium has a long history of choosing what feedback they hear and ignoring the rest. At the 2012 (iirc) Open House, Kevin Siembieda took a super secret poll asking folks if they were happy with the existing RPG rules WITHOUT actually asking folks that question. He came up with a 99% happy 1% unhappy with Palladium result from just walking through the crowd and engaging in random small talk. After he boasted about it in a murmur, enough unhappy attendees who were never asked their opinion at the Open House posted in the response thread to blow that supposed number out of the water. Chuck may just be carrying on a time honored tradition passed down from the boss to tailor the vote result to match the desired predetermined conclusion (in his case, not responding to those mean backers who keep complaining about crappy products and multiyear delays).

Yeah, I'm aware of their Failure To Understand A Self-Selecting Population (and other failures in that 'survey'), I was more commenting on the disconnect between the facts as presented (there wasn't a fraction of the public blow up) and the results we saw anyway (they went radio silent for 10, pushing 11 months now anyway).

 Mike1975 wrote:
We tried the be nice to PB and did a 10 questions thing ages back. I helped put it together and posed it to PB after cleaning up some of the questions. I get ridiculed by some like Merijeek because PB actually responded. They responded to about 6 of the questions and ignored the rest, some of which I would have ignored too. Being polite was tried with mixed results. Being a jerk has been tried with pretty much Zero results to date. Go figure. Being nice gets you at least something. Being an ass gets you ignored.

Someone calls me screaming and I'm likely to ignore them too just like some guy named Zero did when he called PB directly a long time ago.

Except Zero wasn't ignored. In fact he was the opposite of ignored. He got a PB representative to attend to the KS. While the actual discussion was a hysterical (in both meanings of the word) shouting match, it was basically the last time anyone at Palladium communicated with backers on the KS in real time. Heck, it had Wayne give one of my favourite quotables to Forar. But there was some actual meaningful discussion with other backers, that likely would NOT have happened, without Zero doing what he did.

I am a little late on this because I wanted to give it a bit of time.

Jefffar wrote:
I'm mostly objecting to the characterization of this being some sort of intentional fraud.

" In law, fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain." Yes, it IS intentional fraud.
No amount of honest stupidity will explain being over two years late on finished estimated ship date.
No amount of sensitivity to negativity can justify taking money from people and not giving an honest update in over 10 months or the mentioned 2 years past delivery.
I specifically select some product listed in the backer kit for purchase after the kickstarter and they say "no refunds" and Kickstarter is not a store.
The American FTC has shown that kickstarter creators are accountable for their promised "rewards" if the KS is funded.

That's what I meant by the mustache twirling part. I think Kevin wants to put this product out, but has run into something that he didn't expect. I just wish he'd start opening up in detail about what the delay is and what he's doing to get past it.

Kevin will chose what is expedient for him.
We were told initially we would only be charged $40 for any pledge that involves the starter box or higher.
Later we were told we had to pay for each instance... whoops!
It costs too much you need to pay! That was soooo unexpected!

My best pet theories are A) Too much money was spent on retail stock OR B) Kev put the brakes on steel dies since they are soooo expensive and he is trying to find a cheaper method.
All the while no rush: typical PB product delays are 3 to 4 years and if a really messy project, it can take a decade.
Unless a clear law can take him down for a time limitation he will say it is being worked on forever.

Jeffar, I was upset when I once pre-ordered a book from Chapters and then found out I would get it about a week after release date since all copies were shipped to their stores for retail sale.
Advantage for pre-order with Chapters?
Worse than buying on release.
Do you not see how their bad behavior breaks so many social contracts on how businesses conduct themselves?
Pre-order and kickstarters are banned from my spending.
I only back companies I know for sure make a point of doing good customer service.
PB is dead to me, I will do what I reasonably can to warn others away from them.
PB closing their doors would not be a bad thing either.

Jefffar wrote:
Couple of things to point out there on that list.

The UEEF marines sourcebook is out as of this fall.

Books 33 and 34 were the only two previously crowdfunded products in Palladium history (crowdfunded on their own site incidentally) and while delayed both did appear.

Recon, a miniatures wargame that Palladium bought any turned into an RPG in the 1980s promised a new RPG version cross compatible with the standard Palladium system in the 'next 6 months' in my 1989 copy. My understanding is that project has been through the hands of several authors (including Kevin's now ex-wife) and different conceptualizations but has never done better than coming up for pre-orders before sinking back below the radar.

I'm pointing this out to show that:

1 Palladium has a 100% record of being late but complete on Crowdfunded products before RTT.

2 Kevin has a habit of talking about projects very early (sometimes at the conceptual stage) in the development cycle which results in a lot of projects missing their original delivery dates by a considerable margin. In part this is due to the weird rules distributors for some of his products force on him (apparently they buy 6 months in advance so if he doesn'thype a product at least 6 months before he releases it they wwon't buy it when it comes out) but mostly its because he gets excited about a product but can't reliably predict when it will be completed.

A - no he has not completed his previous Crowdfunding. My understanding is that there are STILL people waiting on the personal phone call. THAT was a reward thus no it is not completed years after the fact.

B - in the heyday of the 90's yeah sure a 6 month advance push of a book was warranted or risk it not getting carried right away.....now? bs, you know what causes distributors to not carry an item? Repeated 6 month delivery notice but 18+ month actual delivery with no other products to fill the hole of the one they are waiting on.

C - "but the habit has stayed" And her einlies the fething problem with PB. They. Don't. Learn. Or. Adapt. Thus they have been dying a slow death for over a decade and will continue this slow death spiral as long as Kevin REFUSES to learn and adapt. And the clowns he surrounds himself with do not help matters as everythign out of their mouths tell kevin he is awesome and great and can apprently do no wrong and that it is everyone else's fault not hs won.

 Forar wrote:

If PB were dropping 19 page giant updates every couple of months filled with details of production and their snags and resolutions, I think the base would be much more charitable.

This point has always been my stance. A delay is fine when you keep your customers informed. A delay without communication becomes a delaying tactic and begins to hint at fraud.

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Agreed, and with PB's present financial state I don't see anyone giving them a loan regardless of the BBB rating, so in my estimation net results = zero.

They have collateral in their IP as well as property (IIRC they own their building judging from posts back during the crisis of treachery!). They could get a loan but I suspect they'd have to secure it with something tangible. In any case, if they want to "fix" their rating back to an A, they'll have to pay $400 to become a member. The big fat F is largely a placebo effect for fans but I could also see it constantly prodding Kevin's ego.

Man, I could have sworn I was assured over and over that PB's fiances were just fine. Maybe I'm just misremembering who it was who told me that.

Merijeek wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

Agreed, and with PB's present financial state I don't see anyone giving them a loan regardless of the BBB rating, so in my estimation net results = zero.

They have collateral in their IP as well as property (IIRC they own their building judging from posts back during the crisis of treachery!). They could get a loan but I suspect they'd have to secure it with something tangible. In any case, if they want to "fix" their rating back to an A, they'll have to pay $400 to become a member. The big fat F is largely a placebo effect for fans but I could also see it constantly prodding Kevin's ego.

Man, I could have sworn I was assured over and over that PB's fiances were just fine. Maybe I'm just misremembering who it was who told me that.

I've heard that as well (including directly from Alex during my one useless post "restarting the discussion" phone call)... but that isn't what I was talking about. My point was rather that an F rating with the BBB might have an affect on the terms and conditions of getting a business loan, not on paying their phone bills and payroll.

 Cypher-xv wrote:

A - no he has not completed his previous Crowdfunding. My understanding is that there are STILL people waiting on the personal phone call. THAT was a reward thus no it is not completed years after the fact.

Source? I've not heard this.

Merijeek, feel feel to look for a quote for that for as long as you want. You won't find me swearing to PB not having money being a problem. I may have doubted but I never swore to it. Your probably confusing people again.

It's not surprising. After all, long distance calling isn't free, you know!

Jefffar wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:

A - no he has not completed his previous Crowdfunding. My understanding is that there are STILL people waiting on the personal phone call. THAT was a reward thus no it is not completed years after the fact.

Source? I've not heard this.

It came up a number of times on their forums, often during chatter about RRT being late (NG1/2 backers sharing their issues with other crowdfunded projects). I've done a little searching, but, well, you know how those forums are.

So far I've got this, where Kevin himself admits to having 16 calls to make, 16 months after the project funded (based on the 2012 weekly newsletters I linked earlier).

Edit: Now, I've been curious as to the details of these things, but all their chatter about them keeps referring back to the Megaversal Insider page, which is now gone, which has made finding those details difficult. Further searching lead me here, where Wayne himself sorts out the tiers for NG1.

They had 5 Ultimate Insiders ($250) who were owed "a brief conversation".
10 "Benefactors" ($500) who were owed "a long telephone call".
And one Ultimate Benefactor (not an actual tier in Wayne's list, but presumably it's for significantly more than $500).

They had 16 people for that entire campaign that even came close to the average RRT contribution (emphasis on AVERAGE).

Still looking for NG2.

Edit 2: Okay, found it here, and unsurprisingly the tiers seem to be the same at a glance.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Merijeek, feel feel to look for a quote for that for as long as you want. You won't find me swearing to PB not having money being a problem. I may have doubted but I never swore to it. Your probably confusing people again.

It was some fan-friend who attended open houses regularly. Whether it was you or not, I don't remember. They kind of blur after a while.

Not even able to make a thank you call...

 Forar wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:

A - no he has not completed his previous Crowdfunding. My understanding is that there are STILL people waiting on the personal phone call. THAT was a reward thus no it is not completed years after the fact.

Source? I've not heard this.

It came up a number of times on their forums, often during chatter about RRT being late (NG1/2 backers sharing their issues with other crowdfunded projects). I've done a little searching, but, well, you know how those forums are.

So far I've got this, where Kevin himself admits to having 16 calls to make, 16 months after the project funded (based on the 2012 weekly newsletters I linked earlier).

Edit: Now, I've been curious as to the details of these things, but all their chatter about them keeps referring back to the Megaversal Insider page, which is now gone, which has made finding those details difficult. Further searching lead me here, where Wayne himself sorts out the tiers for NG1.

They had 5 Ultimate Insiders ($250) who were owed "a brief conversation".
10 "Benefactors" ($500) who were owed "a long telephone call".
And one Ultimate Benefactor (not an actual tier in Wayne's list, but presumably it's for significantly more than $500).

They had 16 people for that entire campaign that even came close to the average RRT contribution (emphasis on AVERAGE).

Still looking for NG2.

Edit 2: Okay, found it here, and unsurprisingly the tiers seem to be the same at a glance.

Thats great, but I was specifically referencing the mention that the calls are still outstanding. Your most recent update is more than 2 years old. Do we have confirmation that these are still not complete?

Jefffar

It's been mentioned several times by backers in the fans of PB page. Some of them still complain to this day that they haven't received their phone call from Kevin.

Most recent updates being quite old, that reminds me of something...something on topic.....

Jefffar wrote:
Thats great, but I was specifically referencing the mention that the calls are still outstanding. Your most recent update is more than 2 years old. Do we have confirmation that these are still not complete?

That's great? As I said, that's what I found with a little cursory google'ing. Unless someone wants to pay my hourly rate, I'm not putting hours into a fully cited endeavour.

Also, I didn't bring it up. I remember it being mentioned as well, but since those sort of things blur a little over the last 2-3 years, it could've been before the Dec 2013 admission.

There are a whopping 16 people who can answer whether or not they got their NG1 call. I think taking 1.5+ years to get around to a handful of chats is damning enough as it is. Whether or not Kevin got around to calling them up in the 2 years since is on him.

Point is if Kevin can't finish rewarding the NG backers with a fething phone call then what hope is there for RRT?

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Point is if Kevin can't finish rewarding the NG backers with a fething phone call then what hope is there for RRT?

But, how do you KNOW he hasn't done so. That 16 months after the fact (as Forar pointed out), he hadn't done it, isn't PROOF that he hasn't done it since, track record for inclination to delay things not withstanding.

I mean, even if someone posted yesterday that they hadn't gotten a phonecall, you don't know that Kevin hasn't made a phonecall since. That there is a huge divide between what Kevin says he will do ("We’ll try to provide some more insight on this next week." Dec 12, 2015), and what he does (Absolutely no insight in the following three weeks and counting), is irrelevant. If you can't prove he hasn't done it, in real time, you shouldn't be making such spurious claims, even though if he had done it, he'd likely have mentioned doing so. Kevin is nothing if not humble about making a great deal over mediocre accomplishments.

I expect a retraction of claim, and an apology to Kevin. It's what he deserves.