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Jefffer

Your missing the point. You want to prove one thing when PB has way more problems like completing this project. Your also ignoring the fact that Kevin refuses to adapt which is why PB is slowly dying. Just like Kevin you seem to be conveniently ignoring that Kevin still thinks the Internet and PDFs are still a fad or that the presentation of his books is woefully poor. So if you still want to argue something of little consequence then be my guest.

But you don't understand. Someone cast (almost certainly true) aspersions at the boss!

Merijeek wrote:
But then, from what Kevin's puppet Wayne said, they'd offer refunds!

And when has anything they said one day, meant anything the next day?

GuyverBlue wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
But then, from what Kevin's puppet Wayne said, they'd offer refunds!

And when has anything they said one day, meant anything the next day?

When Kevin claimed he didn't actually say that backers would get their copies before retail. Turns out it's completely true, it was confirmed the very next day.
Kevin always includes a cassette recording audio transcript of everything he writes so the reader can listen to his voice as they read the letter. This was not done with the updates in which it was written that backers would receive their copies first, so technically, he never said it.
It's completely true and I'm certainly not going to trawl the internet for proof that I'm wrong.

It's strange. I got home today and found a box from a KickStarter that ended on June 3rd of 2015 (i.e. - just a hair under 2 years after RRT) that contained my entire small pledge almost exactly when the delivery was estimated for in December of 2015. While it's obviously January, as a technically international backer the first week of January is "close enough" considering holidays and so forth. This box contained 11 different kinds of hard plastic models, which all seem to be reasonably well-executed (leaving aside any aesthetics comparison as inherently subjective) and by sculpt count relatively equal with RRT Wave 1 if my math and reading skills haven't failed entirely. The company who produced this raised less than 5% of the amount PB had to work with, though in fairness they had only 15% of the packages to dispatch. They also had actually put in the groundwork years in advance of collecting money, which likely made the project actually 98% done when the campaign was posted.

Why bring this up? Because the company who did it is the same minds behind Dakka, and to be able to accomplish such a clearly unpossible feats as having a clearly defined timetable, updated progress and sticking to their plans they are clearly wizards and/or have some dark pact with an unholy entity. Thus, any opinion expressed by Dakka members can be safely discounted, as who would really consider listening to such a godless bunch?

It does provide an interesting contrast to the struggles here though. Perhaps a bit of apples-and-oranges as SAS doesn't have to deal with a licensor or any of that nonsense, but it is more evidence that producing a miniatures game is not rocket surgery nor even brain science. Is it work, and probably a metric ton of it? Sure, but it's *do-able* work if you set your mind to it. I suppose the most charitable thing that could be said is it DID take SAS four years to get the product to market, but somehow I can't find giving PB that long with taking money from people up-front to be acceptable. Maybe I'm just weird though and too much of a "customer" and not enough of a "fan-friend."

Tooling complexity on the ME minis is also significantly higher than RRT. In particular the Hunter, Scarecrow and both Angels have very nicely done sliding-core moulds to result in easy-to-assemble, detailed-on-multiple-face models.

Edit: And I had my hands on both pre-pro and ready to produce plastics well in advance for painting up for marketing work. The guys were proper organised, and generally a pleasure to work for.

Your also comparing a company that likely had someone with some "Project Management" skills. PB has none and never put someone in place to handle things. Jeff was hired but then expected to do much more than RRT and does not really count. Again, it comes down to PB treating RRT like a red-headed stepchild.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Jefffer

Your missing the point. You want to prove one thing when PB has way more problems like completing this project. Your also ignoring the fact that Kevin refuses to adapt which is why PB is slowly dying. Just like Kevin you seem to be conveniently ignoring that Kevin still thinks the Internet and PDFs are still a fad or that the presentation of his books is woefully poor. So if you still want to argue something of little consequence then be my guest.

Did I ever say there wasn't something wrong about this? Did I ever say that there doesn't need to be better communication? Did I ever say they don't need to get the productcompleted as quickly as possible?

You seem to be confusing a post clarifying the way Palladium has operated in my experience as a customer with a claim that this is perfect or the best way to work. You seem to think that I don't want the product I've paid for. You seem to think I don't want them to be able to produce product faster and more frequently.

Well you're wrong. I'm as frustrated as the rest of you by this situation. For me this is the same frustrations I've had with Palladium since the last century.

My goal was to provide insight into how Palladium has wound up this way. Some folks, like myself, have found the product enjoyable enough to tolerate this sort of thing, some have not. I can appreciate both points of view.

So, no. don't stop having issues with what Palladium's doing. It's your right as a customer to express your dissatisfaction with the situation. I just disagree with some of the things being said about this situation.


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Merijeek 651554 836379. 4 null wrote:But you don't understand. Someone cast (almost certainly true) aspersions at the boss!

He doesn't sign my paycheques

Well, I just spent a few minutes lodging a complaint with the FTC. https://www.ftc.gov/
For those wanting to do so, some appropriate dates to include / check for in your emails
Initial contact / kickstarter launch: 18 April 2013
Funding (date you paid out to Amazon) on or around 20 May 2013
ROW shipping completion of Wave 1 update: 14 May 2015
I suggest everyone who hasn't done so lodge a complaint - it's not a lot of effort and it's past time this project and PB was either forced to put up, or was shut down for breach of contract.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Your also comparing a company that likely had someone with some "Project Management" skills. PB has none and never put someone in place to handle things. Jeff was hired but then expected to do much more than RRT and does not really count. Again, it comes down to PB treating RRT like a red-headed stepchild.

Dakka are a bunch of dudes. Intelligent, skilled, creative, and dedicated dudes, but I'm willing to bet PB has been in business nearly as long as some of them have been alive. Interest and experience playing such games presumably didn't change the need for research and planning and all the other things that went into making that an apparently smooth endeavor.

Project managers are great. I love the PM's I work with, occasionally scary folks as they are, but it's more than just needing a PM, they'd need one and for Kevin not to feth with every thing he or she did.

The longer this bullgak goes on, the less likely a PM would've really saved this project. Hell, it might've been actively counterproductive; they'd have been paying someone to be another cog under the 'waiting on Kevin for answers' machine.

It may not be a perfect apples to apples comparison, but it does at some level showcase that minis production is *doable* in a reasonable timeframe, with quality results, on a smaller quantity level (which doesn't benefit from economy of scale), and emphasizes how unreasonable PB's current time line has been. Being wargamers doesn't make people experts at getting minis made, and PB allegedly had done their research. They keep hiding behind how hard and new this all is, and yet a group that I'm guessing doesn't have a warehouse and somewhere around a century in business experience between them managed to pull things off in a fraction of the time.

Adding someone else to report to Kevin would not triple their efficiency. Everything I've read about Kevin leads me to believe there's no way he'd give up a fraction of the micro-managing control that'd be necessary to do the job.

At this point, a PM might've just ended up another waste of money and as someone else to get thrown under the bus.

Unless we can point to someone on the SAS team that has a background in project management, I don't accept that as an explanation or deflection. There's no "to be fair, maybe this hypothetical thing happened..." to be found.

And if one of them does, provably, have that kind of career training and experience, I will cheerfully withdraw this counterpoint.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Your also comparing a company that likely had someone with some "Project Management" skills. PB has none and never put someone in place to handle things. Jeff was hired but then expected to do much more than RRT and does not really count. Again, it comes down to PB treating RRT like a red-headed stepchild.

Not to worry, Mike. The guy known for doing quick pencil sketches was promoted to take his place. I'm not sure how to describe the reasoning behind that without violating rule #1. What is the opposite of a meritocracy? Nepotistic dictatorship? While I don't personally know Chuck Walton, I do know that mad crazy project management skills were not a part of his publicly known speciality in the industry and the complete LACK of public progress in 2015 sure doesn't bolster a cache of hidden skills either. Palladium should have hired an outsider with the necessary experience and not just promoted a fan friend/freelancer/employee from working on something completely different to work on the biggest project in the company's history that is already a massive failure in terms of delivery, execution, and public relations.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Your also comparing a company that likely had someone with some "Project Management" skills. PB has none and never put someone in place to handle things. Jeff was hired but then expected to do much more than RRT and does not really count. Again, it comes down to PB treating RRT like a red-headed stepchild.

Indeed, or at least SAS got their "we have no idea what the hell we're doing" time squared away before "going public" as it were. There's a long list of company failures on this project, but the buck stops with the company who has their name on the project. PB has been around long enough that they can't apply for a pass on the freshman fouls that SAS would be allowed (and notably did not commit in any case). Heck, they can't even really lay claim to the sophomore screw-ups that Mantic could being a six-year old company that experienced insane growing pains; they've been in business for nearly 35. damn. years.

As Forar pointed out much more eloquently, adding expertise doesn't translate directly into results. PB's core problem is, unfortunately, Kevin himself. His management style and work methods are ill-suited to what needs doing, but he appears to lack the self-awareness/humility to step out of the way and let more competent people at the required tasks do what they need to do (and since that sounds like a slam on KS, nobody is competent at all things that a business would need to do; I am woefully incompetent at drawing up budget projections, which is why my job description doesn't require that). Based on evidence presented by previous contractors and employees with PB, I don't think he would know how to allow the person the authority they would need to get things done anyway. Sure, those reports are going to be negatively biased, but in totality it is hard to discount the over-arching theme of needless micro-management as disgruntled ex-employees dining on sour grapes.

At the risk of getting into Rickensian saber-rattling, a company that can't get their act together after three decades of operations is probably an ideal candidate to be culled from the marketplace, especially if they're taking money from consumers and then not honoring their obligations in a timely manner.

 Krinsath wrote:
It's strange. I got home today and found a box from a KickStarter that ended on June 3rd of 2015 (i.e. - just a hair under 2 years after RRT) that contained my entire small pledge almost exactly when the delivery was estimated for in December of 2015. While it's obviously January, as a technically international backer the first week of January is "close enough" considering holidays and so forth. This box contained 11 different kinds of hard plastic models, which all seem to be reasonably well-executed (leaving aside any aesthetics comparison as inherently subjective) and by sculpt count relatively equal with RRT Wave 1 if my math and reading skills haven't failed entirely. The company who produced this raised less than 5% of the amount PB had to work with, though in fairness they had only 15% of the packages to dispatch. They also had actually put in the groundwork years in advance of collecting money, which likely made the project actually 98% done when the campaign was posted.

[fan-friend] SEE? ANOTHER KICKSTARTER LATE! And yet YOU ATTACK THE BLESSED ONE BECAUSE HIS KICKSTARTER IS LATE!!!11!!! Another data point supporting our point![/fan-friend]



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Jefffar wrote:

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Merijeek 651554 836379. 4 null wrote:But you don't understand. Someone cast (almost certainly true) aspersions at the boss!

He doesn't sign my paycheques

Hmm. Better point out where I said that he did so.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Just after Valentine's Day!? *gasp*

I wonder when their rights to the IP expire this time? Of all the assertions that have been leveled against them, that one I find most compelling.

If their right to even do the work is lost next year, then that's an awfully short clock to run out before 'oops, sorry, we CAN'T do it, legally'.

Not that it'd change the expectation for them to make good on things anyway (refund demands and other product or whatever), but hey, a way to turn some of those cores laying around the warehouse into something other than dust collectors!

According to Wikipedia, they had the license from 1986 to 1995, and reacquired the license in 2007. Though their own Website claims it was in 2008. Looks like their Shadow Chronicles book was released in Sept 2008, so obviously they had it before then.

Sooooo, if they got another decade long contract, and that thing runs out in 2017....

Wouldn't mean squat. As per a statement from PB that I quoted a couple days ago, March 18th, 2014, an expiry of license puts them right in the crapper.

Palladium Books on March 18, 2014
This isn't Jeff, this is Wayne. I was nearby while Jeff was on the phone with you, and he was calm and polite the entire call, whereas you were rude and resorted to name-calling. He simply did not say the things you claim.
We're sorry about the delay in delivering the rewards for this project, but it is coming, and soon. There is no question about whether we will deliver. If something were to happen that would cause us to be unable to deliver we would, of course, offer refunds as Kickstarter's terms dictate. But that is not the case here; not even close. We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. Wave Two by the end of the year, hopefully well before. Screaming and calling names won't speed up the process.

The highlighted text being the relevant bit. If they legally can't make the product, I'd like to know how they can argue that that wouldn't count as "unable to deliver". It's the very definition of the phrase.

Partial delivery means they have been able to deliver, though. There's a box containing some fraction of what I ordered sitting in my apartment right now. As terrible as this project has been, that does still put it in a better situation than three of the other projects that I've backed.

And losing the license next year seems pretty conditional given how long they've had it and reasonable assumptions about what's required to renew it. I mean, presumably they have a year to come up with a plausible sounding plan that addresses any concerns Harmony Gold may have. Us discontented rabble aren't the ones that PB needs to convince about anything.

If the license was yanked, the odds of getting a useful partial refund is pretty much zero, though, because 5000 or so Kickstarter backers would probably have to stand in line behind creditors and people with real money.

 Krinsath wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
Your also comparing a company that likely had someone with some "Project Management" skills. PB has none and never put someone in place to handle things. Jeff was hired but then expected to do much more than RRT and does not really count. Again, it comes down to PB treating RRT like a red-headed stepchild.

Indeed, or at least SAS got their "we have no idea what the hell we're doing" time squared away before "going public" as it were. There's a long list of company failures on this project, but the buck stops with the company who has their name on the project. PB has been around long enough that they can't apply for a pass on the freshman fouls that SAS would be allowed (and notably did not commit in any case). Heck, they can't even really lay claim to the sophomore screw-ups that Mantic could being a six-year old company that experienced insane growing pains; they've been in business for nearly 35. damn. years.

As Forar pointed out much more eloquently, adding expertise doesn't translate directly into results. PB's core problem is, unfortunately, Kevin himself. His management style and work methods are ill-suited to what needs doing, but he appears to lack the self-awareness/humility to step out of the way and let more competent people at the required tasks do what they need to do (and since that sounds like a slam on KS, nobody is competent at all things that a business would need to do; I am woefully incompetent at drawing up budget projections, which is why my job description doesn't require that). Based on evidence presented by previous contractors and employees with PB, I don't think he would know how to allow the person the authority they would need to get things done anyway. Sure, those reports are going to be negatively biased, but in totality it is hard to discount the over-arching theme of needless micro-management as disgruntled ex-employees dining on sour grapes.

At the risk of getting into Rickensian saber-rattling, a company that can't get their act together after three decades of operations is probably an ideal candidate to be culled from the marketplace, especially if they're taking money from consumers and then not honoring their obligations in a timely manner.

True BUT again, the idea that it was all because of Kevin, however likely is only an ASSUMPTION.....and until proven stays that way. The only way to disprove it would be for
A. An insider to talk
B. ND to open up
C. HG to open up

None are likely to happen. Kevin for the most part, while hands on with a lot of writing, seemed pretty out of the loop on most of the rest with RRT. That coming from the only person here who was on any conference calls with respect to RRT. I never, ever, got the impression that Kevin himself was very hands on with RRT. He was never in any of the calls and he, even much later into things, had no clue how the game was played.


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It is just as likely a combo of PB, HG and ND and an overly complex and barely or more likely mismanaged system where there was no good direction as far as moving forward.

PB is much too willing to let others sit by and do the hard work while they hope to bring in money and glory. If you sit off to the side waiting long enough eventually you realize nothing is getting done.

Same with other projects.....PB was hoping others would do the Lions share of the lifting for the Conventionals and pretty much sitting back with a grin on their faces, and it backfired.

ND is pretty class - if they have nothing good to say, they have nothing to say.

 Mike1975 wrote:

True BUT again, the idea that it was all because of Kevin, however likely is only an ASSUMPTION.....and until proven stays that way. The only way to disprove it would be for
A. An insider to talk
B. ND to open up
C. HG to open up

None are likely to happen.

Isn't your post right here an example of A? You've had experience working for and peeking behind the curtain of the Wonderful Wizard of Palladium.

Kevin for the most part, while hands on with a lot of writing, seemed pretty out of the loop on most of the rest with RRT. That coming from the only person here who was on any conference calls with respect to RRT. I never, ever, got the impression that Kevin himself was very hands on with RRT. He was never in any of the calls and he, even much later into things, had no clue how the game was played.


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It is just as likely a combo of PB, HG and ND and an overly complex and barely or more likely mismanaged system where there was no good direction as far as moving forward.

So who would you say, in your experience, is the go to guy with regards to Robotech now? I know you said you previously communicated with the guy who suddenly and mysteriously left but who took over for him? Did you interact with Chuck Walton in whatever capacity he is acting beyond quick pencil sketcher? I remember reading industry blogs talking about Palladium cattle calls for writers. While the blog didn't admittedly mention palladium by name but it was the only company that employed the writer being talked about (Jason Marker). He said that when the great and mighty Kevin had an idea that he would mailing list it out for writers and pretty much who ever answered first got the job. At FFG, the jobs are supposedly handed out instead based on what the line director thinks each artist has proven he can do successfully. Promotion and production at palladium feels like it is based on immediate convience rather than actual long term planning and merit. All I know for sure is that IMO the "quality" of the earlier Robotech RPG books under Jason Marker (despite me disagreeing strongly with his focus on "real" military organization that conflicts with the actual anime) was a hell of a lot better both in art, production, organization, and coherency than the more recent offerings I got since he left.

PB is much too willing to let others sit by and do the hard work while they hope to bring in money and glory. If you sit off to the side waiting long enough eventually you realize nothing is getting done.

Same with other projects.....PB was hoping others would do the Lions share of the lifting for the Conventionals and pretty much sitting back with a grin on their faces, and it backfired.

The impression that I get from Palladium and other companies in decline is that, despite their words, they view fandom as a priveledge that they bestow unto customers instead of the opposite. If you read their Rifter contribution agreement, they and only they decide whether they'll pay you for your contribution regardless of whether they use it or not. That's ridiculous to me. Either pay everyone for publishing their work that you claim permanent ownership of or make it clear that you don't pay anyone . Don't leave it up to a whim. And don't change a line or two and then stuff your name onto it as first author so that you can offer less payment ala the Bill Coffin post.

Yes Mike, it is an assumption, but it's an assumption based on extant evidence of the operations of PB to date; that Kevin will be quiet for weeks on end providing no guidance nor feedback until it's "crunch-time" at which point he has to go in and "fix" all the things that the contractor(s) did wrong and play the messiah role. Nothing about the arc of RRT seems to be deviating from that fairly credibly-established arc, though I concede you do have more inside information than most and perhaps their path to the same old problems was different this time around. In my own guesswork, I think where PB got bitten in this circumstance is by how glacial the movement of plastics tooling/production is in comparison to print. You can play cavalry with a book and ride in to save the day at the 11th hour as KS is reportedly wont to do, but even people who know what they're doing with plastics injection can get snarled up by scheduling or engineering problems and it's not something that someone out of their depth is going to be able to BS their way through.

By way of further comparison we can look at JohnHwangDD's favorite "should have hired a project manager" project with KD:M. They too embarked on injected-plastic miniatures, which was actually a post-funding shift. You had scope creep from all hell on that project, and it's hard to say John is wrong in his need assessment from a pure timely completion perspective. You had a creator who was likely woefully inexperienced with the rigors of HIPS production at the start, and a manufacturer that wasn't well-versed in the more complex designs the project required at that time. They were/are also horribly delayed on fulfillment. However, the miniatures have been done with a really staggering amount of sculpts/parts completed since May of 2015; the hold-up on final project completion is now the printed materials/boxing (see also: John is probably right-ish on the PM to curtail the creep). Even allowing that KD:M funded four months before RRT, we're past the timetable taken by a comparable project in scope, backer count, experience and funding making good on the major manufacturing end of the equation. That PB does not produce any sort of evidence of product is, in my view, simply insane.

I mean really, there simply can't be nothing done for Wave 2 in the past six months+, right? And if they do honestly have no tangible progress for this long while playing with other people's money...yeah, they deserve any unpleasant things that happen to their company, IMO.

@Warboss....I would say maybe A since I never worked closely from within or near the PB office so I can only speak to impressions and people will believe what they want to regardless. I can understand the desire to throw it all on Kevin's plate. In the end he is at fault, but there is also making crap up to fit one's own perception of reality and that is wrong.

Right now I could not say who is in charge. Wayne never cared to focus on RRT and I'm not sure how Chuck is doing. I kinda cut the cords with the whole deal with the Blast rules and basically said if they want help they know where to find me and that it'll cost.

With this restart, I'm very dubious and doubt it is anything more than more wordsmithing.

Agreed on the fandom part. PB's arrogance is what is killing things and what has been killing things for many years.

@Krisanth....I'm glad you agree it is an assumption. It is based on perception and history, not evidence. We have no first hand evidence of what is happening within on this mess. We have supposition based on other projects. That's it. Anything short of that and it's basically someone lying to themselves to fit a picture.

Where PB likely got bitten is their lackadaisical approach to work and not knowing how to do hard work or work with others. They assume way too much of others and pretty much never know what they are getting into short of re-writing and repackaging older materials.

I truly believe myself that nearly nothing has been done on wave 2. If it was Kevin, per past performance, would tend to want to crow about it. I think that we are on hold. People can continue to guess the reasons why. Do I think they intend to do wave 2? Yes. That does not mean that they are at this moment capable of doing so or that they should be let off because of their incompetence.

On the other hand, making spurious assumptions as to intentions because we are upset should be below any of us. The one time I spoke to Kevin on the phone for over an hour he seemed energetic but a big cagey to me. I've spoke of that before. But in the end he seemed honestly wanting to do the right things even if possibly inept or incapable of doing so.

 Mike1975 wrote:
@Warboss....I would say maybe A since I never worked closely from within or near the PB office so I can only speak to impressions and people will believe what they want to regardless. I can understand the desire to throw it all on Kevin's plate. In the end he is at fault, but there is also making crap up to fit one's own perception of reality and that is wrong.

Right now I could not say who is in charge. Wayne never cared to focus on RRT and I'm not sure how Chuck is doing. I kinda cut the cords with the whole deal with the Blast rules and basically said if they want help they know where to find me and that it'll cost.

With this restart, I'm very dubious and doubt it is anything more than more wordsmithing.

Agreed on the fandom part. PB's arrogance is what is killing things and what has been killing things for many years.

Good point (in that you weren't on site to view the day to day interactions). I can only assume that you would have ultimately arrived at the same conclusion quicker with greater contact though... I thought that the reason for your work stoppage was with regards to the conventional vehicle rules and not the blast rules? Or am I misremembering a story about Carmen laying claim to the playtesters' ideas and work as his own?

I agree that there's far too much malice attributed to KS as some sort of intent to defraud; I don't believe PB's actions rise to the level of criminal barring much more evidence. I think we agree that this is more down to inexperience and general incompetence in miniature wargaming products. If one ignores that Kevin's company is (or at least was) sitting on a large sum of other people's money, everything I've read actually paints a tale of an at least somewhat-talented person struggling with his own blind spots and limitations. That's something I think we can all understand and relate to as being a common part of the human experience, and I'd have a hard time believing anyone who claimed they had not wrestled with the same at some point in their lives.

At the end of the day though, his company, of which he is the owner and thus accountable, DID take a very large sum of money from a great many people and unfortunately that's where my sympathy for him ends. As nice of a person as he no doubt is and as genuine as his desire to complete the project may in fact be, you don't get any points for trying in business. In the words of a well-known philosopher: you do or do not; there is no try.

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
@Warboss....I would say maybe A since I never worked closely from within or near the PB office so I can only speak to impressions and people will believe what they want to regardless. I can understand the desire to throw it all on Kevin's plate. In the end he is at fault, but there is also making crap up to fit one's own perception of reality and that is wrong.

Right now I could not say who is in charge. Wayne never cared to focus on RRT and I'm not sure how Chuck is doing. I kinda cut the cords with the whole deal with the Blast rules and basically said if they want help they know where to find me and that it'll cost.

With this restart, I'm very dubious and doubt it is anything more than more wordsmithing.

Agreed on the fandom part. PB's arrogance is what is killing things and what has been killing things for many years.

Good point (in that you weren't on site to view the day to day interactions). I can only assume that you would have ultimately arrived at the same conclusion quicker with greater contact though... I thought that the reason for your work stoppage was with regards to the conventional vehicle rules and not the blast rules? Or am I misremembering a story about Carmen laying claim to the playtesters' ideas and work as his own?

Carmen apologized and I would have gone on helping but with the Blast rules I threw in the towel. If it was not for me pushing even that would likely have never happened.

So what was wrong with the blast rules? Was it the timing/delay? The massive complexity that they added to the explanation? Changing what was actually playtested to something else on a whim from Palladium? I'm not sure which if any of those particular blast rules straw options was the one that broke your camel's back.

I mean, presumably they have a year to come up with a plausible sounding plan that addresses any concerns Harmony Gold may have. Us discontented rabble aren't the ones that PB needs to convince about anything.

Harmony Gold doesn't care as long as they get the check in the mail. If someone offered more money, that would be the only reason why they would pull the license from Palladium.

If the license was yanked, the odds of getting a useful partial refund is pretty much zero, though, because 5000 or so Kickstarter backers would probably have to stand in line behind creditors and people with real money.

I think you are confusing losing the license with losing the company.

Which brings us back to one of my favourite sayings, and one I know I've used here before;

'Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.'

Whether it's because Kevin is the chokepoint or because ND are actually dastardly villains or because Wayne and Jeff wasted hours setting up a bare knuckle boxing gym in the warehouse or whatever; they have obligations, they're not meeting them, and it has been nearly a year since they even showed some measure of progress.

I wholeheartedly agree that people should be annoyed with them for actual reasons, because the list of things they've fethed up and/or failed to do is long enough without the need to weave things from whole cloth.

As I've asked others before, how long does this charade go on? People (Mike, some on the PB Forums, a rare voice on the KS comments) keep asking for patience or recognition of extenuating circumstances, or noting how X, Y, or Z would've made things better, but that's all academic. They are the ones who need to finish this, full stop. Their name is on the box, period. ND has stated they handed over the models, and PB has admitted that they have them, gave them 'to China', and as per late August (the big update showcasing these renders they gave 'China' to work with and craft sprue breakdowns because of a file incompatibility and reasons), yet here we are.

Before we go another round of Rebuttal Theater, ask yourselves this; was this all justifiable in 2013? 2014? 2015? Is it really worth defending in 2016? Is it still going to be worth defending in 2017? How many *years*, significant portions of our life expectancy, are acceptable to go by?

I joke darkly once in a while with Morgan that actuarial tables are in play. With a fan base of a cartoon from the 80's, it becomes less of a funny joke each passing year. It was one thing for people to cry OMG LAWSUIT! in 2014, and much mockery was had (Hi Rick!), but two years later?

Much like the bullgak ending up on PB's lap (again, their name on the box, they hold the license, etc, etc), Kevin is the man in charge. If he's the one giving directives, the buck stops with him. If he's hands off, how the hell is he letting the biggest project their company has ever done flounder for 2.5 years? In the end, it's on him to act or appoint people to act. "He's just so busy writing and editing and getting colonoscopies" ran out of merit a long time ago.

I feel like this just comes down to splitting hairs and theoreticals. "Oh but if they had a PM this wouldn't have happened!" Yeah, and if I, Forar, had the license I think we would be further along by now, but that ship has sailed. "Oh, we don't KNOW Kevin is the hold up!" Sure, nor do we know that he isn't rolling around naked in a pile of money like an RPG enthusiastic Scrooge McDuck.

We know he's the man at the top. We've gotten the Great Insider Tale from Bill Coffin about his managerial approach, and at his age I frankly doubt that has changed much. We've seen his grandiose dreams and declarations come back to to haunt them time and again (if to a lesser degree because they don't usually take money up front).

As is often said, this is indeed a new place for them; actual responsibility to consumers whom expect a measure of accountability. They aren't a couple of guys in their 30's hand cranking out their first RPG book anymore. They like to proclaim themselves trendsetters and of importance to the gaming community, then they should fething act like it.

But hey, I'm sure tonight or tomorrow we'll get the usual late week PB Newsletter, with the super special Early January State Of The Union Address, where they tell us, no really, this year RRT will deliver, along with three dozen books they're totally working on. Any day now. Annnnnny daaaaaaaay.

*jazz hands*

 n815e wrote:

If the license was yanked, the odds of getting a useful partial refund is pretty much zero, though, because 5000 or so Kickstarter backers would probably have to stand in line behind creditors and people with real money.

I think you are confusing losing the license with losing the company.

He's just skipping a few steps in the math and taking on a few (likely reasonable) assumptions.

If PB lost the license, they would be legally unable to produce Wave 2. Were that to occur, they are on the record as stating that they would offer refunds. He believes that they do not have the money required to do so (the aforementioned assumption), which would entail bankruptcy/liquidation. If they went against that publicly-available statement, they'd face lawsuits which would result in the same effect of exhausting monies. At that point, creditors go to the front of the line as would any legal judgements/fines. Ergo, if PB lost that license before fulfilling Wave 2 in some sort of legally-sufficient fashion, it would be the same as losing the company.

I think you have the overall right of it though that HG doesn't care so long as the check shows up on time and doesn't bounce. Only other circumstances I see them pulling it is 1) your theory on a company offering significantly more money (doubtful) or 2) the company who has the licensed right to make board games (which explains why it had to be an outgrowth of the RPG rather than it's own product) deciding they don't like RRT and threatening HG with breach of contract if they don't pull it. While we see similar kerfuffles with Star Wars and FFG, given that this mystery company has not released any games that I'm aware of and thus could be entirely theoretical, I rate the likelihood of that occurring well-below the appearance of Wave 2, and I'm not at all optimistic on Wave 2.

 warboss wrote:
So what was wrong with the blast rules? Was it the timing/delay? The massive complexity that they added to the explanation? Changing what was actually playtested to something else on a whim from Palladium? I'm not sure which if any of those particular blast rules straw options was the one that broke your camel's back.

It was the massive effort to get PB to pay attention as the team worked on these. PB would only glance and opine on any rules if at all and then arbitrarily changed a few things without even asking what the reasoning was for some of the changes. Got sick of it, and this was soon after the insanity of the Conventional Rules that I had given them months before and that were still likely sitting unopened in a computer email.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
Which brings us back to one of my favourite sayings, and one I know I've used here before;

'Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.'

Whether it's because Kevin is the chokepoint or because ND are actually dastardly villains or because Wayne and Jeff wasted hours setting up a bare knuckle boxing gym in the warehouse or whatever; they have obligations, they're not meeting them, and it has been nearly a year since they even showed some measure of progress.

I wholeheartedly agree that people should be annoyed with them for actual reasons, because the list of things they've fethed up and/or failed to do is long enough without the need to weave things from whole cloth.

As I've asked others before, how long does this charade go on? People (Mike, some on the PB Forums, a rare voice on the KS comments) keep asking for patience or recognition of extenuating circumstances, or noting how X, Y, or Z would've made things better, but that's all academic. They are the ones who need to finish this, full stop. Their name is on the box, period. ND has stated they handed over the models, and PB has admitted that they have them, gave them 'to China', and as per late August (the big update showcasing these renders they gave 'China' to work with and craft sprue breakdowns because of a file incompatibility and reasons), yet here we are.

Before we go another round of Rebuttal Theater, ask yourselves this; was this all justifiable in 2013? 2014? 2015? Is it really worth defending in 2016? Is it still going to be worth defending in 2017? How many *years*, significant portions of our life expectancy, are acceptable to go by?

I joke darkly once in a while with Morgan that actuarial tables are in play. With a fan base of a cartoon from the 80's, it becomes less of a funny joke each passing year. It was one thing for people to cry OMG LAWSUIT! in 2014, and much mockery was had (Hi Rick!), but two years later?

Much like the bullgak ending up on PB's lap (again, their name on the box, they hold the license, etc, etc), Kevin is the man in charge. If he's the one giving directives, the buck stops with him. If he's hands off, how the hell is he letting the biggest project their company has ever done flounder for 2.5 years? In the end, it's on him to act or appoint people to act. "He's just so busy writing and editing and getting colonoscopies" ran out of merit a long time ago.

I feel like this just comes down to splitting hairs and theoreticals. "Oh but if they had a PM this wouldn't have happened!" Yeah, and if I, Forar, had the license I think we would be further along by now, but that ship has sailed. "Oh, we don't KNOW Kevin is the hold up!" Sure, nor do we know that he isn't rolling around naked in a pile of money like an RPG enthusiastic Scrooge McDuck.

We know he's the man at the top. We've gotten the Great Insider Tale from Bill Coffin about his managerial approach, and at his age I frankly doubt that has changed much. We've seen his grandiose dreams and declarations come back to to haunt them time and again (if to a lesser degree because they don't usually take money up front).

As is often said, this is indeed a new place for them; actual responsibility to consumers whom expect a measure of accountability. They aren't a couple of guys in their 30's hand cranking out their first RPG book anymore. They like to proclaim themselves trendsetters and of importance to the gaming community, then they should fething act like it.

But hey, I'm sure tonight or tomorrow we'll get the usual late week PB Newsletter, with the super special Early January State Of The Union Address, where they tell us, no really, this year RRT will deliver, along with three dozen books they're totally working on. Any day now. Annnnnny daaaaaaaay.

*jazz hands*

I think it's all just a lot of childish whining. You either do something about it like Rick, let it go, or complain to the same people who have heard it all 100 times before accomplishing nothing. Real honest desire for change would mean contacting media or other agencies to try to get the word out to new and different sources.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will do my best to create my own game where I can still use what I got and stuff from other games and basically cut PB's rules out of my concerns for good. Some rebalancing and voila. I can use RRT, Battletech, or anything else and that is the best way for me to move on. This way I will never again have the need to buy anything from PB. The best way to protest short of lawsuits is simply to not buy and make sure others do not buy either.

The refunds are required if possible, even if they didn't write that they would provide them.
It's only an assumption that they don't have the money to produce the models and therefore also to provide refunds.
It may be reasonable, but it's just as reasonable to assume that they are not producing for other reasons.

PB could also be in a position, if they didn't have the funds to produce, to prove to the satisfaction of courts that they did their best to produce and ran out of money for legitimate reasons.

Likely they have some of the $, just not enough to produce, ship to the US, and then reship to customers all of wave 2. If you can't do all 3 there is no reason to spend the $ until you can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
at least wave 2 can be packaged up in tighter boxes or simply into bags........

I will do my best to create my own game where I can still use what I got and stuff from other games and basically cut PB's rules out of my concerns for good.

The rules are the least concern for the backers, though.
It's getting the remainder of our models that we care about.