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Which seems unlikely. So we can complain or do something about it. Personally I plan on never seeing them and will use what I can however I can. Then if they show up I will use them and move on. One thing though, I will probably not buy a single thing from PB ever again and the books can usually be found online in PDF somewhere.

 n815e wrote:
The refunds are required if possible, even if they didn't write that they would provide them.
It's only an assumption that they don't have the money to produce the models and therefore also to provide refunds.
It may be reasonable, but it's just as reasonable to assume that they are not producing for other reasons.

PB could also be in a position, if they didn't have the funds to produce, to prove to the satisfaction of courts that they did their best to produce and ran out of money for legitimate reasons.

True as Mike points out there's as of yet no pressing reason for PB to be spending the money on production if they know they need X amount of money and they currently have only Y amount available (well, aside from creating something to show the backers they ARE working on things, but they've shown a certain amount of disinterest in that). We can even throw the rhetorical bone that it's only the increase in shipping since the campaign closed that is imposing a shortfall; that shipping is more expensive is both true and a substantial factor with the number of backers on this project.

However, if they're in a position where they have to prove to a court that they have spent all the money from the project in good faith (which would be something of a stretch but we'll go with it for debate's sake), enough bad things would have had to have happened to their finances that I'm not sure they survive it anyway. Rick may have been hyperbolic on some points, but the cost of vindicating themselves, if indeed they can be vindicated, would likely come up to a substantial sum in and of itself.

Obviously I am of the opinion that they would not be able to fully vindicate themselves in those circumstances, but until more people with standing get annoyed enough with PB's antics we'll probably not know one way or another.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I think it's all just a lot of childish whining. You either do something about it like Rick, let it go, or complain to the same people who have heard it all 100 times before accomplishing nothing. Real honest desire for change would mean contacting media or other agencies to try to get the word out to new and different sources.

If you find my commentary so distasteful, feel free to put me on ignore. Given the general tone of this thread, I'm not sure why you'd even come here. Not that you aren't welcome, you're free to read and post as you like.

But much like Kevin, you don't get to determine what I think, feel, or how I choose to express myself.

Alpharius, on the other hand... *looks around nervously*

Anyway, skip the generalities and get specific. I have cited, specifically, with fething references, what I have issues with, and have even presented suggestions as to how they might address them, including writing them a lengthy email on the matter and talking to Chuck for ~40 minutes last month. Just because I'm not willing to ring up one of the law firms in my building doesn't mean I need to 'bend over and think of England' while those donkey caves sit on a grand or two of product they still owe me and my friends.

What, specifically, do you find misguided? That I find distasteful PB's lack of transparency? What is childish about wishing to hold a company accountable for their failings? The world is not purely black and white, and as a grown man with young children I sure as hell hope you can appreciate the vast spectrum in between those extremes.

I can be unhappy without launching a class action lawsuit. I can chat with Warboss and Morgan and Mr. Dachi and others without needing to have a torch in one hand and a pitchfork in the other as we take a roadtrip to PB's warehouse.

Frankly, trying to get a laugh out of some of these gents over a shared experience is vastly more entertainment than PB has provided directly, so nope, I can't see giving that up anytime soon.

It's funny but on Boardgamegeek and every so often here, you get good and frustrated yourself with them and the situation. Really let the claws out. But at other times, like now, anyone who isn't at your level of frustration is being unreasonable. It's 'childish', too extreme, but hey surely YOUR concerns and frustrations are worthwhile.

Mike wrote:The problem with the GHQ thing is that PB did not think it through and got greedy. Way before PB even thought about Conventionals I wrote up the rules for some players by their request. GHQ had quite a few orders for use with RRT and wound up getting pointed my way. I put them in contact with PB BUT PB decided they could make $ and priced things over GHQ. Why would I buy PB ones when I can get the same minis cheaper from the source? That question never seemed to cross their minds so their pre-sale was a failure and they never released the Conventional rules.

Oh so you're allowed to call them greedy and take issue with how they do business? I guess since you just went and spent dozens (hundreds?) of hours retro-engineering their game and then decided to make your own, you're the only one allowed to express anything but quiet patience for this campaign?

Mike wrote:It's also why I've rewritten a lot more, moved away from strictly RRT, and started making a Universe that you can readily make crossovers to so that my RRT minis can be used with Battletech or PlasmaBlast or Microworld, CAV, etc.

Ah yes, the ever famous "feth you, I'll make my own, so why the problem? Why don't all 5,000 of us just become game designers in order to get something worthwhile out of this mess?

And before anyone (not naming names) bothers with the "WHY SO SERIOUS, U MAD?" memes, yes, I am frustrated. I guess the apathy I had for the project has subsided, and it remains obnoxious how much transparent contempt they have for the backers. "We'll have more to show in the weeks to come!" Months go by without new info. "We'll deliver in the next 6 months!" Sure, if one ignores that they haven't remotely started jack or gak, because if molds were being milled or test sprues run they'd be shouting that from the rooftops.

I am annoyed at what they have done and have failed to do, and if you think that's 'childish', I guess we're just not going to see eye to eye.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Likely they have some of the $, just not enough to produce, ship to the US, and then reship to customers all of wave 2. If you can't do all 3 there is no reason to spend the $ until you can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
at least wave 2 can be packaged up in tighter boxes or simply into bags........

From my own selling of a starter kit, I'd say most of the weight in the package was actually the rulebook. At this point, if palladium were to come out and be honest FINALLY and say "we don't have enough money to ship", I might be willing to chip in $5-10 to help ship my rewards as long as they themselves covered the rest if it meant getting my stuff months to years faster. If they don't have enough to cover the actual production then IMO they need to gather up their own cash (selling IPs, licenses, bank loan, whatever...) or immediately refund customers. A three year interest free loan is already too long.

Or, they can split Wave 2 in to 2A and 2B, show and deliver what they can.

Or maybe just tool & release the Monsters, which we know would sell in good numbers at retail. Just that one kit would make a lot of people happy.

@Forar, the incessant retelling of the same gets boring. PB is bad has been regurgitated ad nauseum. Feel free, I just think it's a waste of time unless you have an audience that has not heard it before. It's like a politician talking to the base. Cheerleading at best.

As far a PB and GHQ. If you are going to sell a product to an audience and then present is as something cool and new you need to offer something new. Repackaging GHQ stuff and then marking the price up when the entire world sees it clearly is not a way to make money. It'd be like me buying something on Amazon and then expecting to sell it on Amazon for a few bucks more. How do you think that would fare? Not well I'd imagine. Although I do see people on ebay trying it.

You have a right to be frustrated. Other than venting, what has any of it gotten anybody? It's fine to be upset, but if I sit around telling the same buddies the same sob story about the ex again and again every time that we sit down to play a game, I would expect them to call me out on it. Does that mean I have any less reason to complain? No. Just that the rest are tired of hearing it.

Same thing with a 40K player always at the table at a game complaining about 40k prices. Some people will parrot him and go "right on!" others will just groan.

That is pretty much where we are at here. The roundtable with the same arguments going around.

It has to be more than just wave two shipping.

If they could get it made and delivered to the warehouse (or even just end up in the distribution chain directly), surely they'd pull in enough to cover whatever it would cost to ship in North America (because obviously they'd start there again).

Unless they themselves have lost so much faith in the project that they don't think the FPA, MAC-II, Super VT's, and other hot items wouldn't attract enough attention to recoup even that much.

At which point it's done, they just haven't said it aloud yet.

Which would make those of us with concerns or complaints... correct.

And I don't need a lawsuit to be correct.

At the very least; make wave two, go to retail, accept the backers will, again, scream bloody murder, but hey sweet dollars!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Or, they can split Wave 2 in to 2A and 2B, show and deliver what they can.

Or maybe just tool & release the Monsters, which we know would sell in good numbers at retail. Just that one kit would make a lot of people happy.

The problem with that is shipping costs will go up even more splitting packages up. It already cost them something like $100k+ to split into 2 waves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
It has to be more than just wave two shipping.

If they could get it made and delivered to the warehouse (or even just end up in the distribution chain directly), surely they'd pull in enough to cover whatever it would cost to ship in North America (because obviously they'd start there again).

Unless they themselves have lost so much faith in the project that they don't think the FPA, MAC-II, Super VT's, and other hot items wouldn't attract enough attention to recoup even that much.

At which point it's done, they just haven't said it aloud yet.

Which would make those of us with concerns or complaints... correct.

And I don't need a lawsuit to be correct.

At the very least; make wave two, go to retail, accept the backers will, again, scream bloody murder, but hey sweet dollars!

I fully expect them to try this. Once they have $ for wave 2 they can ship to the US and start selling and tell us that ours will be forthcoming. The retail sales are used to fuel some of the shipping to backers. If this happened I would not be one bit surprised. Since we got wave 1 early I can see this.

Or they could ship retail and wave 2 internationally first since they were last on wave 1 and leave US nationals waiting and hope some of us spend some extra coin on wave 2 before pledges arrive.

I wonder what the "relaunch" will entail........????

 Mike1975 wrote:
@Forar, the incessant retelling of the same gets boring. PB is bad has been regurgitated ad nauseum. Feel free, I just think it's a waste of time unless you have an audience that has not heard it before. It's like a politician talking to the base. Cheerleading at best.

As far a PB and GHQ. If you are going to sell a product to an audience and then present is as something cool and new you need to offer something new. Repackaging GHQ stuff and then marking the price up when the entire world sees it clearly is not a way to make money. It'd be like me buying something on Amazon and then expecting to sell it on Amazon for a few bucks more. How do you think that would fare? Not well I'd imagine. Although I do see people on ebay trying it.

You have a right to be frustrated. Other than venting, what has any of it gotten anybody? It's fine to be upset, but if I sit around telling the same buddies the same sob story about the ex again and again every time that we sit down to play a game, I would expect them to call me out on it. Does that mean I have any less reason to complain? No. Just that the rest are tired of hearing it.

Same thing with a 40K player always at the table at a game complaining about 40k prices. Some people will parrot him and go "right on!" others will just groan.

That is pretty much where we are at here. The roundtable with the same arguments going around.

Then why are you here?

And I mean that sincerely, not in a passive aggressive "and get the feth out of my tree fort" sort of way.

Also now I'd like a tree fort.

But seriously; this thread (across two incarnations) has ranged from unpleasant to toxic to "I only laugh because otherwise I'd cry" for literally years.

Why bother swinging through if there's nothing to see? You drop your own cards or rules once in a while, but there's a separate thread for that, and a whole Facebook group of folks working on... whatever you're working on. I wouldn't know.

If it's just swinging through to see the monkeys fling poop, why bother even putting up the token contradiction? You state you don't care about PB's end of things, have no expectations of wave 2, and see this as a childish temper tantrum.

So why bother? I'm legit curious.

I come here for the laughs and camaraderie found within. Not simply to find a self-reinforcing echo chamber, but more in the 'support group' sense of people who are sharing the same ongoing bullgak. If PB had something of note to share, I'd share it. I have, and would be happy to. Until they get off their asses and do some work, however, mockery of the silence is what we have. Updates were shared when they gave us updates, newsletters are shared (mostly to note how few feths they seem to give about RRT, granted), if they had something to say other than "we totes made a phone call!", we'd talk about that.

Believe me, at times I find it plenty tiring to watch a company apparently struggle to tie its shoelaces for an entire year. But until "we gave 'China' the picturemathingys and they are using scissors to cut the files or something" stops being all they've got, here's where we are.

As I noted, I find it fun enough to point and laugh from the peanut gallery. If you find the thread's topics distasteful, you should do something about it.

Which is what you just said we should do, so hey, good advice to be taken!

Edit: like, this isn't anything new; you've said as much about Fern's ongoing love affair with meme generator sites and the weekly newsletters. But that's on your page, where you have set expectations to be met. Here is a known quantity; unless they get around to doing *something*, it's going to be mockery, and probably juvenile mockery at that. We (or at least I) own that, so isn't it kind of crazy to expect our little community here to act any differently than we have for, what, over 2 years now?

Because I actually still care to see RRT and how it turns out, albeit that care is less and less as I work on Nodal Wars more and more.

I also come here for the comraderie and friends. Why would that be any different? Not everyone here is a resounding chamber. That does not mean I'm not going to chide someone who goes on about the same, as you would say, fething thing, for the hundredth time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After all, I put $770 bucks into the mess

 Mike1975 wrote:
Because I actually still care to see RRT and how it turns out, albeit that care is less and less as I work on Nodal Wars more and more.

I also come here for the comraderie and friends. Why would that be any different? Not everyone here is a resounding chamber. That does not mean I'm not going to chide someone who goes on about the same, as you would say, fething thing, for the hundredth time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After all, I put $770 bucks into the mess

I'm not trying to shoo you away as I enjoy your posts and think you contribute useful things but I'm not sure your expectations are realistic. Until Palladium gives us something new to complain about (and not giving us new promises to break soon after seems to be the only change they're capable of) or they fulfill their obligations (yeah... I'm not holding my breath for that), there simply isn't much of anything different to discuss actually about RRT in a RRT thread. You're coming up with your own house rule set and I've come up with my own (much smaller in scope) but those aren't really RRT but offshoot side projects and they'll never gain the traction that theoretically RRT was capable of in the past nor will they garner the same level of discussion.

For me, I think Forar puts in enough effort to make the various...commentaries interesting, humorous and entertaining.

But, as always, if you think a post breaks the rules of the site - just report it.

Otherwise, we find that oftentimes, complaining about complaining usually has the opposite effect then what the person complaining about complaining was after!

Remember, this thread is the current reigning champion for Most Shamefully Negative Thread on Dakka Dakka.

(Though the various AoS ones are giving it a serious run for its money!)

Surely this one wins, there's no RRT version of Talys, so we're at least 98% negative.

Sweet! When the "relaunch" of the game occurs to much fanfare this year with the release of one metal model and a second answered FAQ question, can we get a new thread to round out the trilogy???

Alright I have been perusing this as a lurker for quite some time....and I'd like to put two things to rest.

And before any "defender" of any kind says prove it, no, it is none of your damn business who exactly told me the following, suffice to say THEY would be in a position to know and were told the first item by Kevin "The Machine" almighty directly and while the second item is their perspective/opinion, considering how close they had worked and communicated with Kevin, I am completely willing to take it face value (and this person still works closely with Kevin)

1 - The money is gone. Period. Stop. No more KS money left.

2 - Kevin is indeed the crux of the problem for a variety of reason. One primary one is actually taking Wayne at his own lying word as to how things are going in regards to RRT items. Wayne has proven he is full of crap already and is the PRIMARY reason I walked away myself from both helping Mike and the others vet rules etc as well as heading up a major Fantasy Project for Palladium. I had to provide dates to prove how full of crap Wayne was in that regard. I was also told that this is not the first nor the 5th or 6th time (in other words it is common occurrence he repeatedly gets away with) that he says he "didn't get something" or something hegot wasn;t what he asked for. Perfect example were the conventional rules that he got THE FINAL VERSION OF July 21 2015 IN THE FORMAT HE DEMANDED and at the end of September claimed to only gotten a mess he hadn't had time to fix.....to which I said liar, screw you and released EXACTLY what Mike sent him after Mike, myself and a few others went over in full bull rush because Wayne was in a hurry to get it done before Gencon. Here we sit in January and still not a damn thing.

So all this "it's only an assumption" can bite me. They have no money and it is Kevin's fault we are where we are. Period. Full Stop. Do not proceed.

/rant

Joyboozer wrote:Surely this one wins, there's no RRT version of Talys, so we're at least 98% negative.

That is a very good point - so, the winner, and STILL Undisputed Heavy Weight Champion of the World...

Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion!

warboss wrote:Sweet! When the "relaunch" of the game occurs to much fanfare this year with the release of one metal model and a second answered FAQ question, can we get a new thread to round out the trilogy???

Yes, absolutely!

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
Because I actually still care to see RRT and how it turns out, albeit that care is less and less as I work on Nodal Wars more and more.

I also come here for the comraderie and friends. Why would that be any different? Not everyone here is a resounding chamber. That does not mean I'm not going to chide someone who goes on about the same, as you would say, fething thing, for the hundredth time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After all, I put $770 bucks into the mess

I'm not trying to shoo you away as I enjoy your posts and think you contribute useful things but I'm not sure your expectations are realistic. Until Palladium gives us something new to complain about (and not giving us new promises to break soon after seems to be the only change they're capable of) or they fulfill their obligations (yeah... I'm not holding my breath for that), there simply isn't much of anything different to discuss actually about RRT in a RRT thread. You're coming up with your own house rule set and I've come up with my own (much smaller in scope) but those aren't really RRT but offshoot side projects and they'll never gain the traction that theoretically RRT was capable of in the past nor will they garner the same level of discussion.

I don't plan on any of it working with PB....I will either use my own rules set myself or see if someone wants to do the minis for it. It's become more of a hobby and a way to forget the RRT mess. Which reminds me I need to call someone this afternoon.

jaymz wrote:
Alright I have been perusing this as a lurker for quite some time....and I'd like to put two things to rest.

And before any "defender" of any kind says prove it, no, it is none of your damn business who exactly told me the following, suffice to say THEY would be in a position to know and were told the first item by Kevin "The Machine" almighty directly and while the second item is their perspective/opinion, considering how close they had worked and communicated with Kevin, I am completely willing to take it face value (and this person still works closely with Kevin)

1 - The money is gone. Period. Stop. No more KS money left.

2 - Kevin is indeed the crux of the problem for a variety of reason. One primary one is actually taking Wayne at his own lying word as to how things are going in regards to RRT items. Wayne has proven he is full of crap already and is the PRIMARY reason I walked away myself from both helping Mike and the others vet rules etc as well as heading up a major Fantasy Project for Palladium. I had to provide dates to prove how full of crap Wayne was in that regard. I was also told that this is not the first nor the 5th or 6th time (in other words it is common occurrence he repeatedly gets away with) that he says he "didn't get something" or something hegot wasn;t what he asked for. Perfect example were the conventional rules that he got THE FINAL VERSION OF July 21 2015 IN THE FORMAT HE DEMANDED and at the end of September claimed to only gotten a mess he hadn't had time to fix.....to which I said liar, screw you and released EXACTLY what Mike sent him after Mike, myself and a few others went over in full bull rush because Wayne was in a hurry to get it done before Gencon. Here we sit in January and still not a damn thing.

So all this "it's only an assumption" can bite me. They have no money and it is Kevin's fault we are where we are. Period. Full Stop. Do not proceed.

/rant

Well, that first part would suck. I expected them to be low on funds compared to maybe what they planned initially on a paper napkin all those years ago but to be out completely is more than just inflation, increased shipping costs over the years, and supplier price increases. Also, welcome to dakka. Please don't bicker with Jorel though in case he follows!

This is not a huge company we are talking about here, 5 in-house staff and a handful of independent artists they dole out jobs to.
With the extremely low publication rate, I really wonder what they do to fill the day.

But yes, as Mike pointed out it is whining "to complain in a feeble or petulant way".
Any attempts made short of hitting them between the eyes with a lawsuit is feeble.
They do not respond to normal company market pressures so normal means of complaints or looking for compensation is not recognized by PB.
Some of it is somewhat productive darkening their kickstarter comments but means little if they do not intend of running another.
The BBB rating going down will mean little to potential customers in the scheme of things.
It also appears there are sufficient customers buying product that they are not scrambling to keep the lights on.

The difficulty is this is sitting in limbo, if there was any kind of closure I would be very happy.
Yes, whining over this bulgak is a waste of time but you figure it will go even worse if ignored.
Plus, allowing someone who knowingly is doing wrong to keep the money is offensive.

Okay! FTC complaint lodged! See if it is any better than BBB.

 Alpharius wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:Surely this one wins, there's no RRT version of Talys, so we're at least 98% negative.

That is a very good point - so, the winner, and STILL Undisputed Heavy Weight Champion of the World...

Robotech RPG Tactics - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion!

Yay! We're number 1 at something!

:-D

Edit; woah, Jaymz is here! Hi Jaymz!

Edit 2: Good luck with the FTC. Which did you file under? Internet shopping? They have started glancing at crowdfunding (by their own admission), but don't seem to have a clear "you think this Kickstarter is full of gak" listing in the complaints section.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I don't plan on any of it working with PB....I will either use my own rules set myself or see if someone wants to do the minis for it. It's become more of a hobby and a way to forget the RRT mess. Which reminds me I need to call someone this afternoon.

I have it on good authority that making a single phone call counts as tremendous effort towards accomplishing large million dollar projects. Be careful of maintaining your mental health and make sure to drink lots of water to keep hydrated. If you get tired, just take a break for a few years.

Yes, I put it under the "Internet shopping" it gets them in the right frame of mind before PB exclaims "Kickstarter is not a store!" or for that matter, the backer kit! Since the FTC's head manager has made some pretty clear statements on expectations for kickstarter rewards, enough complaints may get some lower level civil servant types moving looking to be noticed... you never know if you do not try.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Or, they can split Wave 2 in to 2A and 2B, show and deliver what they can.

Or maybe just tool & release the Monsters, which we know would sell in good numbers at retail. Just that one kit would make a lot of people happy.

The problem with that is shipping costs will go up even more splitting packages up. It already cost them something like $100k+ to split into 2 waves.

So? They took in big money, it'll cost big money to ship. Either they deliver, or they refund.

I have a feeling they can't do either one

 Forar wrote:


Edit; woah, Jaymz is here! Hi Jaymz!

Yes I have finally been dragged in...

"and so it was he appeared.....and with him chaos would follow"

Did your source reveal what they spent the money on? Were the costs seriously lowballed as Mike said? Have we been paying all of Palladium's operating costs for almost three years while on getting part of me effort for half that time and almost no progress for the other half? Did palladium sign some BS overcharged deals because they didn't do their due diligence? Was there another crisis of treachery? All of the above? I'm curious how the hundreds of thousands of dollars that should be there might have potentially disappeared.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I have a feeling they can't do either one

All the more reason that they should be driven into bankruptcy and liquidated.

 warboss wrote:
Did your source reveal what they spent the money on? Were the costs seriously lowballed as Mike said? Have we been paying all of Palladium's operating costs for almost three years while on getting part of me effort for half that time and almost no progress for the other half? Did palladium sign some BS overcharged deals because they didn't do their due diligence? Was there another crisis of treachery? All of the above? I'm curious how the hundreds of thousands of dollars that should be there might have potentially disappeared.

The only thing we can be certain of, is that it's not Simbieda's fault. 110% chance on that one.

(Note: Loving the wrong people (or the fans) just too gosh darn much does not count as being his fault)

@Jaymz are you KS.

As a "yes it my fault, I trusted so-and+so. I'm such a good trusting guy, but the bent me over" it just the thing you see him post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Jaymz are you KS.

As a "yes it my fault, I trusted so-and+so. I'm such a good trusting guy, but the bent me over" it just the thing you see him post.

 warboss wrote:
Did your source reveal what they spent the money on? Were the costs seriously lowballed as Mike said? Have we been paying all of Palladium's operating costs for almost three years while on getting part of me effort for half that time and almost no progress for the other half? Did palladium sign some BS overcharged deals because they didn't do their due diligence? Was there another crisis of treachery? All of the above? I'm curious how the hundreds of thousands of dollars that should be there might have potentially disappeared.

Yup. There's a lot of questions that deserve to be answered if they are indeed out of money. And if it's the operating costs thing (which I'd suspect is most likely), I'd like them to answer a relatively simple question.

How much time per week, were you spending on getting RRT done?

Not the extra crap, not the looking at other ideas stuff, not conventional forces (which never appeared), not Updates that didn't actually Update. How much time, per week, was spent on completing the project as was promised in the Kickstarter, as a combined total. Because I was tooling around with the math, and it's been 44 weeks since the Feb 28th Update. Meaning that if both Kevin and Wayne each spent one 2hr block a week of productive work (ie, 1/20th of a standard work week, or 1/30th of what they claim to work), that's almost 90 hours of work. Which means there should be SOMETHING to show. And if they're using it for operational costs, I'd be expecting much more than 2hrs of productive work per week. Not all, surely. But way more than that.