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 CaptKaruthors wrote:

Because then you use those, and go buy an alternative for the non-existent models.

Then Kevin doesn't get the money.

So, really, to do so would be to steal from Kevin.

That's nonsense. He already has the money. He should release them to the backers at the very least...then put them up on DrivethruRPG.com for a small fee to the public. Now he gets some money from the people that didn't back the Kickstarter...and gets to claim forward progress. That's win-win for PB. Doing nothing gains nothing..and people will make their own anyways. Net gain for PB? Nothing. If they are completed...they should release them. Period.

Way overthinking things.....just plane old uncaring and laziness

palaeomerus wrote:


He might be a candidate for Starwars Imperial Assault if he likes Starwars.

I ended up getting a windfall payout for some work I did and bought up all of wave 1 and wave 2 of SW:Armada. My kid loves SW but the ships really got him excited. Now THAT is a game done right.

darkminstrel wrote:

palaeomerus wrote:

He might be a candidate for Starwars Imperial Assault if he likes Starwars.

I ended up getting a windfall payout for some work I did and bought up all of wave 1 and wave 2 of SW:Armada. My kid loves SW but the ships really got him excited. Now THAT is a game done right.

<sigh> That is the main game I get to play lately.
Fast to setup and not bad for play speed either.

I will have to continue prettying up what I have for RRT now that I am all committed again and all.

Way overthinking things.....just plane old uncaring and laziness

That's what I figured. So much failure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well sure. You've already paid for the miniatures. Guess what? Means you don't count.

OTHER people, who haven't paid for the miniatures. Are they going to not use an alternative for the weeks days months year multiple years they had access to cards but no game pieces? Of course not. And if those people find alternatives, they might not go ahead and spend money on Mouthwatering Palladium Books Miniatures(tm) when they've already got something.

For me that crap still doesn't fly because I'll still buy the plastic versions when they come out as well. Currently, the Gnerl alternatives I'm using are more expensive than the eventual boxed set of them. It's no different than when GW released new plastic eldar fire prisms and wave serpents, etc. I had the ones with the metal gun bits...but still bought the new prisms. Same thing with the serpents. I had several converted ones...but still bought the plastic kits anyways.

I have a suspicion that PB will try to stop anything they think may fall within the IP because they MIGHT get around to making those items and do not want the demand gone before they get there. We would not want them hurting their heads in figuring out if they will get around to making a given product within Kevin's allotted life span.

This is why we cannot have nice things.

 Talizvar wrote:
I have a suspicion that PB will try to stop anything they think may fall within the IP because they MIGHT get around to making those items and do not want the demand gone before they get there. We would not want them hurting their heads in figuring out if they will get around to making a given product within Kevin's allotted life span.

This is why we cannot have nice things.

That is why we just don't tell them when we do get nice things......

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

For me that crap still doesn't fly because I'll still buy the plastic versions when they come out as well. Currently, the Gnerl alternatives I'm using are more expensive than the eventual boxed set of them. It's no different than when GW released new plastic eldar fire prisms and wave serpents, etc. I had the ones with the metal gun bits...but still bought the new prisms. Same thing with the serpents. I had several converted ones...but still bought the plastic kits anyways.

Sure, and with five minutes of work you could download a free PDF of just about any game book you could possibly want. But you'd probably still go ahead and buy the real book if you wanted it.

But it took PB how long to start producing PDFs?

Downloading the pdf doesn't simulate the drama associated with this project that has for better or worse become the "meat". Unless each PDF is personalized with art of Kevin and each user's mother in various compromising positions, it's a pale imitation of the entirety of the Robotech ExperienceTM.

Not putting up the wave two standees because they'd hurt sales would make them putting up the wave one standees (which are actually on shelves right now) completely contradictory.

Laziness, apathy, holding something in their back pocket, whatever it might be, loss of sales doesn't resonate with me.

Unless they saw already flagging sales instantly die off when they put out the wave one standees, I can't imagine doing one but not the other for a reason that MIGHT hurt wave 2, but would then allegedly ACTIVELY be harming wave 1.

Kevin Siembieda has in the past commented on day to day sales and tried to diagnose the issue (to assign blame to someone?) the same day. He freaked out when sales dropped overnight with their new website and webstore when it was unleashed upon the gaming world and considered iirc pulling it back. Nevermind that it was the first update of their website since probably the 1990's and people and folks were likely exploring it instead of buying temporarily... there was one less rifter issue sold overnight! Panic! Quick, deploy the emergency logo dice bags! He doesn't have any qualms screwing over thousands of current customers whose money he already has as well as cutting his future potential fanbase significantly with the same dick move.. but if someone else does something that means a grab bag sale was lost that week then they will rue the day they crossed his path!

Sure, and with five minutes of work you could download a free PDF of just about any game book you could possibly want. But you'd probably still go ahead and buy the real book if you wanted it.

Not sure what your point is? But in this example...yes I have actually done that. I've done it with FW books, RPG books, etc. If the book is good, I'll buy it...even if I may have had a free pdf of it at one point.

 Forar wrote:
Not putting up the wave two standees because they'd hurt sales would make them putting up the wave one standees (which are actually on shelves right now) completely contradictory.

Laziness, apathy, holding something in their back pocket, whatever it might be, loss of sales doesn't resonate with me.

Unless they saw already flagging sales instantly die off when they put out the wave one standees, I can't imagine doing one but not the other for a reason that MIGHT hurt wave 2, but would then allegedly ACTIVELY be harming wave 1.

The reason given was that they would have to do the cards to go with them before they could release the standees . Problem is we already know they have them done and had them done quite some time ago (predating wave one) as told to us by Mike who has the damn things. Even if they hadn't been done yet that's maybe MAYBE two days work.

It was not about a possible sales loss.

You are accurate with the terms apathy and laziness. I'd add ineptitude, incompetence, indifference, and downright lack of character whatsoever.

Yeah, that's my point Jaymz. Some in this very thread were speculating it could be about lost sales.

I'm aware of the 'we need to do the wave two cards' excuse, but as pointed out, they have them, and it's not a Herculean task even if they needed to be built from scratch (y'know, file incompatibility or whatever).

There are a lot of reasons I can get behind, but "worried they'll lose sales of wave two stuff" doesn't sit right. If people are excited about MAC-II's and (plastic) FPA/MPA/Zentraedi Infantry, they'll get them. They won't see a paper standee and say "oh, well, I could've gotten some figures, but man these pictures are way better!"

Anyone willing to drop $30 for a MAC-II is not going to print off a picture and consider that good enough. And thinking that could be remotely the case is to ignore that the internet exists. We can go find a dozen viable MAC-II pics (from the series, fan drawn, PB's very own) for little standees right now, and scaling it to proper size isn't exactly a challenging endeavor.

 Forar wrote:
Yeah, that's my point Jaymz. Some in this very thread were speculating it could be about lost sales.

I'm aware of the 'we need to do the wave two cards' excuse, but as pointed out, they have them, and it's not a Herculean task even if they needed to be built from scratch (y'know, file incompatibility or whatever).

There are a lot of reasons I can get behind, but "worried they'll lose sales of wave two stuff" doesn't sit right. If people are excited about MAC-II's and (plastic) FPA/MPA/Zentraedi Infantry, they'll get them. They won't see a paper standee and say "oh, well, I could've gotten some figures, but man these pictures are way better!"

Anyone willing to drop $30 for a MAC-II is not going to print off a picture and consider that good enough. And thinking that could be remotely the case is to ignore that the internet exists. We can go find a dozen viable MAC-II pics (from the series, fan drawn, PB's very own) for little standees right now, and scaling it to proper size isn't exactly a challenging endeavor.

In general, no, paper doesn't replace plastic in terms of tabletop games generally. That said... there is some pretty impressive origami out there.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~bu9t-sm/vf1.html

 Forar wrote:
Yeah, that's my point Jaymz. Some in this very thread were speculating it could be about lost sales.

I'm aware of the 'we need to do the wave two cards' excuse, but as pointed out, they have them, and it's not a Herculean task even if they needed to be built from scratch (y'know, file incompatibility or whatever).

There are a lot of reasons I can get behind, but "worried they'll lose sales of wave two stuff" doesn't sit right. If people are excited about MAC-II's and (plastic) FPA/MPA/Zentraedi Infantry, they'll get them. They won't see a paper standee and say "oh, well, I could've gotten some figures, but man these pictures are way better!"

Anyone willing to drop $30 for a MAC-II is not going to print off a picture and consider that good enough. And thinking that could be remotely the case is to ignore that the internet exists. We can go find a dozen viable MAC-II pics (from the series, fan drawn, PB's very own) for little standees right now, and scaling it to proper size isn't exactly a challenging endeavor.

not to mention that it's already been done for them for more than a few years......even if they want to say, here are crappy ones until we get good ones done.....all I needed was a few pics from them to make it happen.

The reason given was that they would have to do the cards to go with them before they could release the standees . Problem is we already know they have them done and had them done quite some time ago (predating wave one) as told to us by Mike who has the damn things. Even if they hadn't been done yet that's maybe MAYBE two days work.

Agreed. Plus if they didn't have them done..they have the templates and could easily make all of them within a few days tops.

It was not about a possible sales loss.

Yeah, sales loss makes no sense to me. They already have the backers money. If they were concerned about loss of sales for the general public...that crap doesn't fly. People still would rather have the laminated official cards vs. printouts and also the actual models vs. stand ins.

You are accurate with the terms apathy and laziness. I'd add ineptitude, incompetence, indifference, and downright lack of character whatsoever.

It gets back to my earlier point. If they say they don't have them ready...then they are either: stupid, or liars.

 Forar wrote:


Anyone willing to drop $30 for a MAC-II is not going to print off a picture and consider that good enough. And thinking that could be remotely the case is to ignore that the internet exists. We can go find a dozen viable MAC-II pics (from the series, fan drawn, PB's very own) for little standees right now, and scaling it to proper size isn't exactly a challenging endeavor.

Mike actually did one sort of 3d

I didn't say it was impossible.

I said that anyone who wanted a model of one, and was willing to pay for the right to have one (in scale, same material, etc), wasn't going to be put off by a paper standee version.

I don't buy a dozen action figures and then print off the ones I'm missing and consider it a 'complete collection'.

Anyone who would use the paper things instead of wanting the real model probably wasn't going to be much of a customer in the first place, and has probably already printed themselves a dozen at minimal cost if they really wanted them.

 Forar wrote:
I didn't say it was impossible.

I said that anyone who wanted a model of one, and was willing to pay for the right to have one (in scale, same material, etc), wasn't going to be put off by a paper standee version.

I don't buy a dozen action figures and then print off the ones I'm missing and consider it a 'complete collection'.

Anyone who would use the paper things instead of wanting the real model probably wasn't going to be much of a customer in the first place, and has probably already printed themselves a dozen at minimal cost if they really wanted them.

Which is a valid point....I've placed mine in a box for now and only use ones that I have nothing that will work at a good proxy.

 Forar wrote:
I didn't say it was impossible.

I said that anyone who wanted a model of one, and was willing to pay for the right to have one (in scale, same material, etc), wasn't going to be put off by a paper standee version.

I don't buy a dozen action figures and then print off the ones I'm missing and consider it a 'complete collection'.

Anyone who would use the paper things instead of wanting the real model probably wasn't going to be much of a customer in the first place, and has probably already printed themselves a dozen at minimal cost if they really wanted them.

I know you didn't say it was impossible...my point was it is easy enough that some of us have already done it.

I don't think Kevin will get us wave two. I feel like he wants to string us along so he doesn't get in trouble with the FTC and so he can try to keep selling us PB junk.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
I don't think Kevin will get us wave two. I feel like he wants to string us along so he doesn't get in trouble with the FTC and so he can try to keep selling us PB junk.

My sentiments exactly.
He keeps our money and has a captive audience: how is this a bad thing in his mind?
It is a small price to pay for keeping his REAL fans the RPG folks receiving his product.
I see this "relaunch" going nowhere, PB really seems to have no appetite to support this line.

Not just PB, but also the few who were willing to spend some time and assist. That includes some long-time people within their RPG ranks that were asked to help with RRT when wave 1 was released.

The sad truth is they will be at conventions this year and it wouldn't surprise me to hear some disgruntled Kickstarter investor flipping their table or ruining their booth. Either will not get our stuff any quicker and I am sure palladium will not understand the anger behind it.

All Quiet on the Martian Front has posted their 'So long, suckers' message on Kickstarter today.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1117201778/all-quiet-on-the-martian-front-miniature-tanks-vs/posts/1476734

Don't expect anything of the sort from Kevin...he'll just keep stringing you along....

The difference being that Palladium has assets that could be seized...

 Genoside07 wrote:
The sad truth is they will be at conventions this year and it wouldn't surprise me to hear some disgruntled Kickstarter investor flipping their table or ruining their booth.

It won't happen. Every year around gencon there are angry backers who swear up and down about how they will tell Kevin off and demand answers. Nothing happens. Now BS did go and speak to Kevin but he was bought off with a free core box. Then when people disagreed with him he picked up his ball and went home.

 totalfailure wrote:
All Quiet on the Martian Front has posted their 'So long, suckers' message on Kickstarter today.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1117201778/all-quiet-on-the-martian-front-miniature-tanks-vs/posts/1476734
Don't expect anything of the sort from Kevin...he'll just keep stringing you along....

"So long suckers" is not so much when nailed with bankruptcy.
It is precisely this outcome why Kevin will say nothing.
I suspect fulfilling wave2 or supplying refunds he would go the same way.
At least those other creators bit the bullet and moved on, an LLC is the way to go to avoid personal ruin.

https://blainepardoe.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/case-study-the-demise-of-alien-dungeon-and-all-quiet-on-the-martian-front/ That was posted by KawCleric over on the RRT Kickstarter page. It reads almost exactly like what we've been going through.

It's also the end that is pretty much predicted for us as well.

Whats the definition of optimism?

Updating your delivery address for wave 2