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 Genoside07 wrote:
Has anyone considered small claims court?
Offer to return unopened boxes for full refund.

Iirc (not a lawyer) from some web research (apply salt as needed), you generally can only file against a company in their home state (Michigan) or possibly another state where they are physically present even if only temporarily doing business (so Indiana because of gencon for example). Beyond the cost of filing and serving them making it not worth it based on the remaining percentage value of the average pledge, it just isn't likely legally possible for most backers. Ironically, Forar and friends might have a shot if Canadian courts work that way during Anime North.

Wouldn't fly for anything but backerkit purchase and then only in whatever the statutory returns period for michigan is.

Backers have not explicitly made a purchase.

We instead have a contractual obligation on PBs part to deliver promised rewards, or to refund if they cannot or will not deliver.

Now they can argue that till the cows come home, but they are also obliged to make a 'good faith' effort to deliver the reward.

'Good faith' does not mean that they, or we, need to believe they are working correctly. It effectively means that they must adhere to relevant professional standards of quality and method for the field of endeavour they are operating in.

In short they are contractually obliged to not be fethers about it. Guess where they've dropped the ball?

Heh, I should be a paralegal or something:

http://www.manteselaw.com/files/The%20UCC%20and%20Keeping%20the%20Good%20Faith.pdf

does anyone feel like this update just pushed the release date on wave 2 to 2017 ?
"UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
This week there has been a lot of discussions and planning about new Robotech® product releases and the ideas, products and people to help us facilitate our plans as we put them in place. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is our top priority for 2016 and 2017, but there are a lot of moving pieces and we want our next push to really deliver. We’ll be keeping you posted as details are nailed down."

Also PB mentions something about Strategicon and how they are doing this and that and so forth there, did they bother to let Strategicon know this? hell Strategicon does not even have them as a dealer or even a sponsor, so wonder how PB intends to do all they say they are doing with no games assigned, no booth space assigned and no sign ups assigned.

Yes I've noticed. Clearly they're not making a good faith effort to finish wave two.

 Forar wrote:
And yeah, the 2017 mention didn't go unnoticed. That doesn't bode well at all. "Heating up in the spring/summer", and 2016/2017? Heh.

 Forar wrote:
Edit: also worth noting, RRT 'being a priority for 2016/2017' isn't mutually exclusive with delivering wave 2 this year. It would require giving them vastly more benefit of the doubt than they deserve, as quietly tucking 'bad news' in like this is totally their style, but to save someone the trouble of pointing it out, I figured I'd mention it myself. I don't buy it for a second, I do think this is them trying to ease into telling us they are immensely fethed, but one could argue (in a wonderfully Palladium'esque way) that it's not impossible. I mean, there are other possibilities.

Like 2017 being when they might launch the next Kickstarter.

That was just... last page. So yeah, it was noticed.

Unless most of the thread has me on Ignore.

... does most of the thread have me on ignore? :-(

 Forar wrote:

 Forar wrote:
And yeah, the 2017 mention didn't go unnoticed. That doesn't bode well at all. "Heating up in the spring/summer", and 2016/2017? Heh.

 Forar wrote:
Edit: also worth noting, RRT 'being a priority for 2016/2017' isn't mutually exclusive with delivering wave 2 this year. It would require giving them vastly more benefit of the doubt than they deserve, as quietly tucking 'bad news' in like this is totally their style, but to save someone the trouble of pointing it out, I figured I'd mention it myself. I don't buy it for a second, I do think this is them trying to ease into telling us they are immensely fethed, but one could argue (in a wonderfully Palladium'esque way) that it's not impossible. I mean, there are other possibilities.

Like 2017 being when they might launch the next Kickstarter.

That was just... last page. So yeah, it was noticed.

Unless most of the thread has me on Ignore.

... does most of the thread have me on ignore? :-(

nope it was on last page, and who lives in the past? other then PB that is.

 Forar wrote:

 Forar wrote:
And yeah, the 2017 mention didn't go unnoticed. That doesn't bode well at all. "Heating up in the spring/summer", and 2016/2017? Heh.

 Forar wrote:
Edit: also worth noting, RRT 'being a priority for 2016/2017' isn't mutually exclusive with delivering wave 2 this year. It would require giving them vastly more benefit of the doubt than they deserve, as quietly tucking 'bad news' in like this is totally their style, but to save someone the trouble of pointing it out, I figured I'd mention it myself. I don't buy it for a second, I do think this is them trying to ease into telling us they are immensely fethed, but one could argue (in a wonderfully Palladium'esque way) that it's not impossible. I mean, there are other possibilities.

Like 2017 being when they might launch the next Kickstarter.

That was just... last page. So yeah, it was noticed.

Unless most of the thread has me on Ignore.

... does most of the thread have me on ignore? :-(

I just today got that update. I couldn't find it, so didn't comment because it was still hearsay to me. These guys are horrible. Glad to be forewarned though, it kind of lessened my rage, though I am still a bit cheesed off.

Actually Palladiums terrible customer service, constant well publicised delays etc probably make it harder to prove they are not making a 'good faith' effort to fullfill the KS

considering all their business and other RPG work is conducted in the same slow and sloppy way

After posting my final letter to PB on the project page and getting a "So sorry, much salt." response I wrote Kickstarter support one final time. Pretty much the same thing in a form letter.

The site that makes you agree to a ToS doesn't make rulings on a breach of the ToS? Sounds like they have chosen the wrong side of the battle. Sure supporting project creators means more show up and Kickstarter gets paid but holding creators to their agreement means more confidence in the site and pencils out to more money for Kickstarter as well. Seems that they want more projects and backers can go and feth off.

Which is extremely short-sighted, of course.

KS supports creators to bring in more money -> More backers get burned the same way as PB backers [amongst others] have been -> More backers refuse to back any more projects -> Less projects fund -> Less money paid to KS.

Simple cause and effect diagram, really.

@Darkminstrel: What can you reasonably expect KS to do right now? Shutting down the KS project page? That would only hurt us as the proof of how much Palladium has lied and broken promises would be harder to reference. Unless they charge every creator for insurance to cover some basic pledge amount (something I've suggested and support), they can't get our money back. It's not reasonable to expect them to sue every failed kickstarter on backers' behalf either. About the only thing I'd expect them as a responsible company to do is to NEVER EVER allow anyone who ran a kickstarter that failed to substantially deliver to run another one again. Realistically though there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of them doing that so it's up to us to make sure Palladium doesn't crowdfund successfully on their site by spreading the word until they make good on their existing promises.

@Conrad: Until backers stop backing (insert haters gonna hate variant pic here), KS won't care. The only thing that matters to them is the total amount pledged each year across all projects.

 warboss wrote:
@Darkminstrel: What can you reasonably expect KS to do right now? Shutting down the KS project page? That would only hurt us as the proof of how much Palladium has lied and broken promises would be harder to reference. Unless they charge every creator for insurance to cover some basic pledge amount (something I've suggested and support), they can't get our money back. It's not reasonable to expect them to sue every failed kickstarter on backers' behalf either. About the only thing I'd expect them as a responsible company to do is to NEVER EVER allow anyone who ran a kickstarter that failed to substantially deliver to run another one again. Realistically though there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of them doing that so it's up to us to make sure Palladium doesn't crowdfund successfully on their site by spreading the word until they make good on their existing promises.

I don't expect Kickstarter to do anything directly. But the things I think they can and should do, are firstly, actually follow up on complaints about creators from backers. Secondly, put pressure on creators to PROPERLY update and/or complete their projects. And finally, if the creator refuses to do anything, or continues to do meaningless wankery (ie, PB's issuances), threaten to issue, and then follow up with if the inactions aren't remedied, an edict stating that Kickstarter considers the project to have failed.

While it doesn't actually DO anything, it'd make the legal aspects that Kickstarter specifically state as safeguards (ToU Section 4) a lot easier for backers to accomplish. Part of the issue with trying to do so, is that as long as PB proclaim to be "working on it", and don't openly admit they can't complete it, it doesn't trip the "unable to complete the project" condition that requires a refund, regardless of the timeframe. Making it much harder to convince authorities that it's failed. If Kickstarter said a more legalistic "Yup, we think this project has failed, the creators refuse to do anything. We believe the backers that want it are entitled to a refund.", that'd go a long way IMO to pressuring the creators into offering a refund, and at the worst gives the various regulatory bodies, or private legal actions a firmer footing in taking it to court.

Also, not putting a "♥ Projects We Love" tag on the front page, would be a start. That makes me much madder than it really should. I know it's been there at least a month or two.

But that is precisely what is happening. Since this has all blown up, I have been far more, shall we say, discerning, as to the projects I have backed. One has already fulfilled and I have resin models of far higher quality that PB will ever be able to produce, and the other I am waiting on a 'delayed' pledge which I knew could not be delivered on time because the campaign was so successful they ended up quadrupling their workload to bring out not just a single episode, but 3 and a whole host of extras.

Once that has been delivered, Adios Muchachos. I'm not going to tear myself up on more things that will never be.

Yes, I'll possibly spend more in the long run as retail will cost me more than a KS pledge, but at least I'll have the comfort of knowing that I will get what I see.

I'm not predicting the fall of Ks projects based on my experience alone. The drop in numbers will be insignificant at first. Once 'word of mouth' gets hold, that number will rise. Once more people have been in the same sort of situation as we are, that number will rise. And once that minimum confidence level has been reached, it's going to be very hard indeed to turn things around.

In my own experience, it has been around 30 years since I last bought a PB product. I would have missed this one too, had it not been for .... well, ROBOTECH!

It'll take a lot more than that for me to forget this little effort. PB can survive or die, it makes absolutely no difference to me as I wouldn't give them a wooden nickel from now on. And the fact that the people behind KickStarter have blatantly sat back, belched, and said "Nothing to do with us, Sonny!" has tarred them with the same brush.

Until there is a stable competitor that offers better consumer protection, KS is going to be the leader.

Not hard at the moment, but being the leader doesn't mean you can't fail.

There are around 5,000 people who will not have anything to do with PB after this fiasco. If 10% also get turned off supporting this sort of thing, that's 500 less backers for KS, IGG, and the rest.

Every time KS don't take action to support backers with a legal grievance, hide behind "They are making a good faith effort to complete", etc then they damage their customer base. THAT is not a sound business strategy, and sounds like they (KS) have been taking lessons in company management from PB.

Every time they force a company to stick to set delivery dates, they damage the whole system. KS are, quite obviously, stuffed if they do, stuffed if they don't. But they would help their cause no end if they set out a delay policy. '+50% of original time between campaign closure and delivery is acceptable, 3 times the original time is not' would be acceptable to me, and would mean that backers would have a definite 'cut-off' date where they can file with KS and get their money back [or whatever part of it remained unfulfilled, anyway.]

I was making the 'percentage of time' based approach suggestion years ago, and I still think it's a good idea. It would be a very good reason for creators to be as accurate as they could with their estimates, and then pad on a little more, and then double it.

If a campaign tells me they're going to take 6 months and takes 2 years, that's entirely different than if they'd said they expected to take 18 months and take 2 years. Same result, but the expectations are on the same page at the start.

But how would that account for stretch goals? Obviously letting creators just change the target delivery date up until the end of the campaign would be dangerous, so perhaps this would also incentivize campaign both ways, big and small; have a huge idea for 3 dozen figures? Maybe you don't start at a 70k goal and hope for the best, or instead you do set the goal of 70k for the core set (obviously I'm using RRT here) and only release a dozen or so minis and then launch a second campaign, or use retail profits and skip crowdfunding, whatever.

Campaigns blowing up to gigantic results might feel good at the time, but far too often it just becomes an excuse for delays and problems, and I as someone with around 60 campaigns backed, I'm tired of delays an excuses. Sure, things happen, that is business/life, but there very much seems to be a pattern across a wide variety of campaigns of over-promising and under-delivering.

And if that super padded target time proves to be more than necessary, then they get to deliver X weeks or months early and look like super stars for doing it.

But I guess the common knowledge is that setting a starting goal that's absurdly low to get the (obnoxiously) coveted 'omg we funded in eighteen seconds' and 'omg we're at a billion percent of funding!' proclamations (and on the front page) seems to be the real driver.

And yes, it would be nice if KS did more than just provide the platform. That is their stated goal, but their alleged emphasis on community and giving back would be appreciated in at least holding people's feet to the fire after the money was collected. I get why they want no part in it, it's a dirty, ugly mess involving Creators who end up not knowing their donkey from a hole in the ground, and Backers who are occasionally the worst aspects of humanity all rolled into one, but there are reasonable limits that I think most outsiders could understand, let alone those who own the very platform these... 'projects' get funded upon.

RRT being an utter gakshow, combined with a few other failed campaigns, excessively delayed campaigns, and other factors have certainly made me more hesitant to back at a considerable level. My beloved Dwarven Forge are basically the exception, because they're now 3 for 3 on delivering awesome stuff at a reasonable (to me) price in a timely fashion. Flying Frog Production's "Shadows of Brimstone" is a case of something heavily delayed due to massive stretch goal bloat, but as it has become my favourite game, I'm just glad to see them making incremental progress.

But most of the others are prone to being $1-25 or so; a 'tip' to a project that I think holds potential, or maybe a low end thing. The days of dropping $50-500+ on campaigns is not quite behind me, but it's done with a lot more caution and grilling of creators.

And even that's only worth so much once they have our cash.

Projects that state up front a reasonable refund policy from the start definitely get a nod, and I think that kind of 'escape hatch' option might become a necessity for anything tempting enough to go really deep into.

 Forar wrote:
Projects that state up front a reasonable refund policy from the start definitely get a nod, and I think that kind of 'escape hatch' option might become a necessity for anything tempting enough to go really deep into.

Lol... *snicker at that last part* Kegel kickstarter.

While I agree in theory with what you and Conner said, we'd just end up in the same spot we're largely in right now. Palladium pledged to offer refunds right after saying backers get their items first in a one shipment 6-8 months after funding all the while keeping backers well informed to the goings on behind the scenes? We might have had a much stronger legal leg to stand on (as with a blanket statement from KS that if you're 200% past your delivery and it's considered failed and refunds are warranted when demanded) but we'd still be standing around doing nothing. It's simply not worth it to sue for most of us and that is the only real way of enforcing a contract. I don't think the strength of the contract is much of an issue (we can and do list the myriad of ways palladium has chosen to break it) and I suspect almost any judge would see a contract that went from 6-8 months for full delivery to 36 months for partial delivery (with no end in sight) as a breach and grounds for a refund plus possibly damages... but it has to actually get to that point and even if it did (barring governmental involvement) would be on a case/backer by case/backer basis. You can have the most iron clad contract in the world but if you can't afford to enforce it then it's not worth the electrons its stored on.

I think the only option is through the Michigan Small Claims Courts. Cost of around $25 for claims under $600. However, that means throwing good money after bad, and having to spend time and effort documenting everything so it's watertight.

It absolutely wouldn't be a silver bullet, but something would be better than nothing, or the tissue thin veneer of coverage we may or may not have now.

I foresee a day when there is law crafted to better protect Crowdfunding backers, but probably not until some Senator (or their grandchild) gets ripped off for a couple hundred bucks, or one of us becomes a congress member (obviously I won't be, so get to it Warboss!). It's not new in the usual sense of the term (KS itself being around 7 years old), but the law in general has lagged behind the internet advancing almost laughably.

Even if it just made things easier for whoever among those 100'ish MI backers, having the risk of 2-3+% of ones backer base have a fairly firm standing to tens of thousands of dollars might be a better reason to show interest rather than disdain. To share information rather than remaining silent.

I'm not expecting an overnight solution to occur, but as with many things (like making miniatures), an iterative series of steps towards improvement would be fine with me.

winterdyne wrote:
I think the only option is through the Michigan Small Claims Courts. Cost of around $25 for claims under $600. However, that means throwing good money after bad, and having to spend time and effort documenting everything so it's watertight.

http://courts.mi.gov/Self-help/center/casetype/Pages/SmallClaimsSH.aspx

I did a quick google search. I hope that helps. You'll at a minimum also have to pay for their certified mail notice of the lawsuit sent to Palladium. Reading down a bit at the douche moves section, Palladium could ask for a jury trial, full trial, or that their always ready to pounce lawyer represent them and it gets moved out of small claims to district court resulting in likely much higher fees for you to proceed. Also...

If the plaintiff does not appear and the defendant does appear, the case may be dismissed.

Since your dakka flag comes up as from the UK, the above is likely pertinent to you. If you on the other hand, want to spend about $35 USD just to mess with Palladium for a few months and piss of Kevin Siembieda enough to have him spend a full 80 hour work week crafting a weekly update, murmur, and KS update devoted to telling the world just how dastardly you are, you just might accomplish your goal. Just remember to send the news information about your lawsuit to all the appropriate news sites for the industry (RPG.net, TMP, BOLS, TGN, EnWorld, etc) for added lulz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
It absolutely wouldn't be a silver bullet, but something would be better than nothing, or the tissue thin veneer of coverage we may or may not have now.

I foresee a day when there is law crafted to better protect Crowdfunding backers, but probably not until some Senator (or their grandchild) gets ripped off for a couple hundred bucks, or one of us becomes a congress member (obviously I won't be, so get to it Warboss!). It's not new in the usual sense of the term (KS itself being around 7 years old), but the law in general has lagged behind the internet advancing almost laughably.

My plans for world domination start with winning the megamillions lottery, not politics. Sorry but I've been foiled by numbers yet again! I will however make you Regent of Toronto as well as the Pastry Advisor to the Imperial Court of Me.

Yeah, it'll be a few years before anything gets done. As you said, someone important has to get screwed over before anyone makes a fuss.

From the KS comments.


"Heyas all you dissatisfied folks.
I talked with my friend. First is that because money was taken across state lines a Federal Class action is in play. Second, depending on the financial status of the company it may just be trying to bleed money from a stone. Say PB is required to refund even 500K and they only have assets of 250K (hypothetical), then after they are liquidated and creditors are paid first, backers may see almost nothing after this and lawyer fees (up to 40%). However, he referred me to a local guy that is pretty bloodthirsty and may take up a class action fairly cheap (especially if we can get the backers notified to participate saving his office the time and resources). I will be talking to him next week and see what it would cost to get the ball rolling. So how the outcome is resolved is dependent on the liquidity of the company. I will keep you all informed as other avenues are explored "

I could be satisfied with a lawsuit that put them out of business, particularly if we ended up with the Robotech license as part of a settlement. :/

I would be really happy if the licence went back to the Japanese creators.

That would then let them release all the other material direct to the US, and would make it much easier for even us Europeans to get the original and further material un the English language and not have to put up with subtitles at best.

Doesn't HG hold the copyright on RT? PB going out of business won't affect that at all

This is true, but it doesn't stop me from hoping, or being really happy if HG wanted to distance themselves from the property once they realise how much damage PB have done to it.

If you are remote and are planning some sort of local legal action, courts will often let you "appear" over the phone.

I have done so before, but it varies from County to County.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
From the KS comments.


"Heyas all you dissatisfied folks.
I talked with my friend. First is that because money was taken across state lines a Federal Class action is in play. Second, depending on the financial status of the company it may just be trying to bleed money from a stone. Say PB is required to refund even 500K and they only have assets of 250K (hypothetical), then after they are liquidated and creditors are paid first, backers may see almost nothing after this and lawyer fees (up to 40%). However, he referred me to a local guy that is pretty bloodthirsty and may take up a class action fairly cheap (especially if we can get the backers notified to participate saving his office the time and resources). I will be talking to him next week and see what it would cost to get the ball rolling. So how the outcome is resolved is dependent on the liquidity of the company. I will keep you all informed as other avenues are explored "

That wasn't from Rick, was it?

 Alpharius wrote:
That wasn't from Rick, was it?

No, it was from "tv2112".

Rick seems to have perked up again in the KS comments (Hi Rick!), but no sign of the Legal Tsunami(tm) just yet.

HG only holds the rights to distribute in the US(and this is debatable), the main rights still belong overseas.

 Forar wrote:
Rick seems to have perked up again in the KS comments (Hi Rick!), but no sign of the Legal Tsunami(tm) just yet.

no I perked up because it annoys me how people say you can only do things a certain way when it is just not so, PB did not split the parts because it was only way to do detail, they split the parts because they were cheap.

Ok on the fb page is Alundra Dalamiq a real person or a dummy account? The tone of the replies reminds me of Wayne, although it could just as easily be nimmy.