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evilsmurf wrote:
Ok on the fb page is Alundra Dalamiq a real person or a dummy account? The tone of the replies reminds me of Wayne, although it could just as easily be nimmy.

Given the minimal information and the tone they're taking, I'm guessing it might be the same person as "Kevin". They're not looking to do anything but stir up the pot against a group of people who are either banned from commenting back or still permitted to post but likely aware that they could be next on the block (for those that remotely give a gak about being able to post there, obviously).

Could just be a gak stirrer, like that Russell guy that used to come around.

I saw a long dead thread for another project pop up and figured I'd post a link here. Sedition Wars was the first kickstarter that familiarized me with the business model and tempted me to pledge whereas Robotech Tactics was the first kickstarter that made me click the pledge button. I've pretty much seen them following the same general path (lots of promise, stretch goal bloat, bonkers final funding compared to the original goal, bad choices regarding minis manufacturing, blame game shuffling between partners, poor support post launch, minis being worked on but never released, etc). After languishing for several years, it looks like Sedition War's plug is finally being pulled:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/509493.page

Since Robotech was funded roughly one year later, I expect the same to happen to Robotech in 2017 if not sooner. Unlike Kevin Siembieda, I didn't find Mike McVey's comments/updates to be obnoxious, deceitful, and insulting so the downward spiral may hit the bottom even sooner for this project.

Considering all the new and vitriolic voices that began posting after the most recent update(RRT of course) I'm pretty sure the scales have tipped against PB. It's a waiting game now to see if the FTC listens to our reports and if the MI AG cares enough. Considering their economic situation it may be that they'll let PB get away with it in order to not lose revenue from PB's taxes.

My state won't do anything and we're in much better shape than MI..

There's only been a few backers maybe less than ten who have filed with the FTC or AG. There's me, Asterios, Talizvar and maybe one more. I still need to file with the AG. If more backers filed then something might happen. Until then...

evilsmurf wrote:
Ok on the fb page is Alundra Dalamiq a real person or a dummy account? The tone of the replies reminds me of Wayne, although it could just as easily be nimmy.

Ding! We have a winner!

darkminstrel wrote:
Considering all the new and vitriolic voices that began posting after the most recent update(RRT of course) I'm pretty sure the scales have tipped against PB. It's a waiting game now to see if the FTC listens to our reports and if the MI AG cares enough. Considering their economic situation it may be that they'll let PB get away with it in order to not lose revenue from PB's taxes.

My state won't do anything and we're in much better shape than MI..

The silent majority will except in extreme circumstances stay silent in regards to directly commenting about the KS on the KS, the Palladium facebook page, or the megaversal forums. They'll instead likely speak through (lack of) participation at community events like tournaments and (absent) retail sales.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
There's only been a few backers maybe less than ten who have filed with the FTC or AG. There's me, Asterios, Talizvar and maybe one more. I still need to file with the AG. If more backers filed then something might happen. Until then...

You can add me to the list. I also think it's been more, maybe not breaking the 20 person mark but I think 10 is too conservative.

I'm on the list with BBB, MI AG, and FTC filings.

That's five so far. Six with Marek.

I've managed to find an unexpected day off. So, if someone wants to toss me their template for complaints for the three agencies, I'll stop tossing feces from the sidelines and get mine submitted today.

We can't assume that the five or ten people who have spoken up here or in comments are the only ones who have done so, especially with people posting links to the agencies in question on FB and KS and who knows where else for weeks (months?)

Of course I'm not trying to allude to some potential avalanche of others, nor do I think we'll a massive uprising anytime soon, but noting we simply cannot know the entirety of the numbers who have reported in to each. Even when they're listed (like th BBB seems to have done inconsistently at times?), who knows how many others might have fallen short of some internal requirements or actually been resolved or whatever.

We shouldn't oversell our perceived 'support', but I sincerely doubt only 5 or 6 people have filed after all these weeks. Months.

Years.

Forar, I believe the correct term is "Tsunami", not "Avalanche".

The "Tsunami" has passed, and it appears to have been little more than the ripple a pebble makes when dropped into the ocean.

So, we now have to pin our hopes on the next big thing - The Potential (sort of) Spontaneous Legal Avalanche!

Surely we can pin ours hopes to Palladium doing the right thing and delivering what they sold people in a timely manner?
There's no way Kevin could be posting a bold faced lie every update, right Jeffar?
Because, there's no excuses this time is there? He can't say oh, I just get carried away because I care so much, or get over excited, when he has publicly said that anything other than Palladium absolutely delivering wave 2 is just lies spread by people trying to take down Palladium.
So, we are absolutely getting everything we payed for, right Jeffar?
Because the only alternative is that Kevin is quite deliberately doing everything he's always been accused of doing for years, but has always been defended against as it couldn't be proven as anything but his word against someone else's.
We have to take him at his word because, at this stage, anything else is a deliberate fraud, which he would not do. Right Jeffar?

You guys are too negative. I don't care what you think but I'll be celebrating the huge milestone we're reaching tomorrow... the 1,000th day after funding! Yes, that's right! For a project that was supposed to go into production in its entirety in 40 days, we'll be at 1,000!!! with no production in sight for half the rewards! Surely being 2,500% late (and, no, I didn't misplace a decimal point!) deserves some sort of mention in the annals of super awesome projects?

Absolutely, we should totally set a date to celebrate that milestone, then completely miss it!

Joyboozer, as I am not an employee of Palladium, I'm not qualified to give any sort of answer that is worth more than my own opinion. Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck.

My opinion is that they still intend to get it out, they just haven't worked out the path from where they are to where they need to be yet and are keeping quiet until they have it.

Jefffar wrote:
Joyboozer, as I am not an employee of Palladium, I'm not qualified to give any sort of answer that is worth more than my own opinion. Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck.

My opinion is that they still intend to get it out, they just haven't worked out the path from where they are to where they need to be yet and are keeping quiet until they have it.

But...they are being answered by Kevin. The answer is that we're totally getting everything, Wave Two is totally their main focus, and that all this effort is going to result in better models at a reduced part count.

So, why would any questions be "Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck"? Certainly you're not starting to doubt their previous answers.

Which might have held a little water if that was remotely what they've said to us, with transparency and an effort to communicate clearly where they are and how things are progressing.

But their defense for an entire calendar year has been "we're trimming the parts count!" and "we're working on it but we can't tell you how because reasons".

It took them half a year in 2014 to go from renders to prototypes to molds to test sprues to production in earnest. We saw it happen, they shared the process with us, and then clamped shut around March of 2015, right after promising more info to be forthcoming. And that update was reasonably well received! There were people who were critical of the 'stubby Lancer' and some of the details on the Ghost, but overall the response was pretty good, especially contrasted over... more controversial periods of the project.

And yet when I've spoken to PB, it's been cited that they allegedly received some highly nasty feedback through other channels (which may be true, but I don't buy there being a massive outcry in private channels when we've already seen that the KS community will very openly speak their minds on Comments and Update Comments).

They've had over 3 years to get to this point (overall), and over 1.5 to get from Wave 1 completing design to get to where we are now with no end in sight.

I get that you're just a guy expressing his opinion, and you're fully welcome to share it. Hell, I appreciate it. But as I tried to express to Chuck when I've talked to him (and I feel he heard me clearly), to the backers, if they allegedly spend hundreds of hours working each month on something but have nothing to show for it, it appears no different (from the outside) than them doing nothing. Nature abhors a vacuum, and similarly backers abhor silence when they've given hundreds of dollars apiece and received maybe 1/2-2/3 of what they're owed.

It's kind of the battle that has been waged for years (*sigh*), and I'm not one to 'purity test' people and expect them to have the exact same opinion, the exact same breaking point, but a view like you've expressed requires giving them some measure of benefit of the doubt, and I know you're not alone in doing so.

But for those that aren't (like many of the regulars here), hopefully we can all see why that wouldn't carry much weight.

The last time I talked to Chuck, he remained optimistic about things proceeding this year, that he didn't foresee it sliding further, but that always has caveats. Unfortunately, we're at a point where even issues legitimately beyond their control will garner ire, because they haven't been forthcoming with anything but excuses, delays, and obfuscation.

Hell, we've even seen it with the "spring/summer" commentary (my own snark noting that "summer" ends in late September, officially) and the minor "what the feth?" when they commented on RRT being a priority for "2016/2017"; one COULD give them benefit of the doubt and believe they might intend to deliver Wave 2 in 2016 and proceed to other products in the following year(s), but they don't get that kind of faith when using vague terms and insinuations.

I've been saying for years (*sigh*), Show, Don't Tell.

They keep Telling us everything is okay, but until they Show us some measure of progress, I think they're only going to keep making things worse for themselves. You don't build trust with 12 months of silence and obfuscation, and if they sincerely want to even begin to Restart The Conversation, they need to begin with something of substance.

"We're totes working on stuff!" isn't substance, and 12 months of it hasn't sweetened things.

And I'm sure you know all this, you've heard it before, but I find it somewhat cathartic to lay out just how obnoxiously long this running gag has been going on.

Like intentionally attacking a straw man without intending to attack any particular poster or their statements; it's a jumping off point for why we are where we are that kind of rattles around in my head from time to time.

 Forar wrote:
The last time I talked to Chuck, he remained optimistic about things proceeding this year, that he didn't foresee it sliding further, but that always has caveats.

Just as a side note to casual thread readers, Alex was also optimistic about things proceeding well that year when I made my one and only phone call to Palladium a week or two after the Great Communications Restart of 2015. Of course, nothing proceeded at all from the viewpoint of backers and the restart was more of a CD skip that just picked up right where it left off. I suspect Palladium employees aren't allowed to be anything other than vaguely optimistic with outsiders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:
Joyboozer, as I am not an employee of Palladium, I'm not qualified to give any sort of answer that is worth more than my own opinion. Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck.

My opinion is that they still intend to get it out, they just haven't worked out the path from where they are to where they need to be yet and are keeping quiet until they have it.

The above is indistinguishable from not intending to ever get it out yet unwilling to give back the money from a backer's perspective in the absence of any concrete information.

Well, sure. But it's different when it comes straight from Kevin!

*jazz hands*

 Cypher-xv wrote:
That's five so far. Six with Marek.

well according to the BBB they have had 14 complaints filed and closed in the past year (PB's rating is now a "D") so assuming more people would have filed with the MI AG and/or the FTC then the BBB the number could be escalating.

 warboss wrote:
[Just as a side note to casual thread readers, Alex was also optimistic about things proceeding well that year when I made my one and only phone call to Palladium a week or two after the Great Communications Restart of 2015. Of course, nothing proceeded at all from the viewpoint of backers and the restart was more of a CD skip that just picked up right where it left off. I suspect Palladium employees aren't allowed to be anything other than vaguely optimistic with outsiders.

I actually joked with Chuck about how much he had to 'toe the company line', but also commented on respecting that he has bills to pay and joined long after a lot of this gak had been allegedly sorted out.

My first chat with him was back in late Oct or early Nov 2015, I believe, and recently checked in with him recently (a week or so ago, I believe). Granted, being new makes him the 'low man on the totem pole' so I'm not expecting him to go out in a blaze of glory. He also noted that I'm not alone in being a reasonable person with criticism to share. Whatever 'lashing out' some have done, it's not the only feedback they're getting.

I think I might make it a quarterly'ish endeavor, because I highly doubt we'll see much (or any) movement in the next 3 months, and while I don't have high hopes for it making much of a difference, it feels good to occasionally do a little more than just bitch about things on the interwebs.

One of my two friends is getting to a 'Feth Palladium" state where I think he'd be on board with filing, not sure how patient the third gentleman will remain, but as noted the other day, I have begun compiling information.

If I decide to start filing, I'm going to be able to cite and provide considerable context.

Not to insinuate another Legal Tsunami, simply noting... I've found a new aspect to my ongoing hobby here.

 Forar wrote:
I think I might make it a quarterly'ish endeavor, because I highly doubt we'll see much (or any) movement in the next 3 months, and while I don't have high hopes for it making much of a difference, it feels good to occasionally do a little more than just bitch about things on the interwebs.

Keep us updated. I don't expect anything to change from one quarter to the next beyond the anticipated delivery date moving one quarter/year further but it'll at least be something slightly new to complain about.

Not to insinuate another Legal Tsunami, simply noting... I've found a new aspect to my ongoing hobby here.

Putting the complaint template together will probably be easier than assembling a prototype Palladium destroid! *zing* In any case, a template (along with a chronological date of the various lies and broken promises) would be helpful to the community.

Merijeek wrote:
But...they are being answered by Kevin. The answer is that we're totally getting everything, Wave Two is totally their main focus, and that all this effort is going to result in better models at a reduced part count.

So, why would any questions be "Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck"? Certainly you're not starting to doubt their previous answers.

Someone was asking me to provide an answer, I was just pointing out that I'm not the one who can provide an official answer.

I'll offer my insight and opinion on the official answers being given. I'll give my opinion on what is probably going on. However I do not have any more information than anyone else here does.

 Forar wrote:
I actually joked with Chuck about how much he had to 'toe the company line', but also commented on respecting that he has bills to pay and joined long after a lot of this gak had been allegedly sorted out.

My first chat with him was back in late Oct or early Nov 2015, I believe, and recently checked in with him recently (a week or so ago, I believe). Granted, being new makes him the 'low man on the totem pole' so I'm not expecting him to go out in a blaze of glory.

He's been an employee for years although I don't recall when he was exactly brought on full time. He art freelanced for years, got put on full time maybe two or three years ago IIRC, and then became whatever it is that he is with regards to Robotech last year sometime after the other guy left/got canned/ran away/whatever. He was likely at a minimum a witness to the behind the scenes stupidity that got us to this 1,000 day point (although probably not an active direct participant until the last year or so).

 warboss wrote:
The above is indistinguishable from not intending to ever get it out yet unwilling to give back the money from a backer's perspective in the absence of any concrete information.

I didn't say it wasn't. Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of the evidence present and their own opinion of it. Just because ours don't completely line up makes either of them invalid.

Jefffar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
But...they are being answered by Kevin. The answer is that we're totally getting everything, Wave Two is totally their main focus, and that all this effort is going to result in better models at a reduced part count.

So, why would any questions be "Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck"? Certainly you're not starting to doubt their previous answers.

Someone was asking me to provide an answer, I was just pointing out that I'm not the one who can provide an official answer.

I'll offer my insight and opinion on the official answers being given. I'll give my opinion on what is probably going on. However I do not have any more information than anyone else here does.

As someone who has seen all the exact same information as everyone else, as you've just admitted, please explain why you'd believe that work is being done to deliver Wave Two. Because in the last year there has been, literally, zero evidence other than "Kevin says so".

Merijeek wrote:
As someone who has seen all the exact same information as everyone else, as you've just admitted, please explain why you'd believe that work is being done to deliver Wave Two. Because in the last year there has been, literally, zero evidence other than "Kevin says so".

I didn't say there was work done, I just said I believe they still intend to get the product out.

Though I will point out, your own statement indicates that 100% of the evidence that has come out (Statements from Kevin) is supportive of it being worked on.