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 Forar wrote:
While it's never going to be a perfect apples to apples comparison, HG seems to be dealing with problems vastly more transparently than RRT.

Or, you know, actually dealing with it. At all.

Back to Robotech (and apologies my part in the side track discussion of another anime robot minis kickstarter)...

For all you 3D printer knowledgeable folks, does anyone know of a source for tiny (roughly 1/1250 scale or <1cm) zentraedi mecha? I was thinking of making some flight stands for my Halo Zentraedi fleet and was hoping something like that (whether plastic, resin, metal, or shapeways) existed. I know they have tiny RDF/UEDF mecha as part of the larger expensive SDF kits and I've found some tiny human mecha but I don't think I've ever seen teeny tiny Zentraedi models. I'd be mounting them 1-3 per 2cm square base so they need to be tiny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:

Also, the pedant in me would like to note that we received 70/97 figures per Battle Cry, making it much closer to 2/3 by raw quantity (though admittedly that's ignoring add ons, which some I know went into heavily, such as our long suffering Decal recipient).

Thanks for the clarification (no sarcasm). I thought the amount received was lower proportionately but I guess Palladium will have to excuse my error given that I pledged for them so many years earlier (sarcasm).

 Smilodon_UP wrote:
Something I find personally amusing (not about how the backers have been treated, mind) is that I've seen at least two folks make comments against Palladium, yet at the same time they're somehow perfectly okay with another company *cough*DP9*cough* pulling the same kind of stunts either now or in the past.

I think its rather unfair to compare the problems the DP9 HG kickstarter, and the problems with the PB RRPGT kickstarter.

No argument that the DP9 issue is a problem of their own making, but they owned up to it. Yeah, they had to drop two of the plastic figures they promised as stretch goals, but that's only two figures out of the still generous number in most of the backer packages and their delays are measured in months, not years. Personally, I'd rather they drop two figures rather than go out of business trying to include them. Also, no one seems to be in any doubt that DP9 will still fulfill their promised pledge packages (minus two figures). They continue to post updates on their progress, including digital renderings of most/all the figures and recently actual photographs of the finished steel molds.

PB on the other hand has repeatedly lied, blamed other people, refused to post substantive updates and just ignored their backers to the point where most people have accepted that PB will never complete the Wave 2 fulfillment.

Big difference in my eyes. YMMV of course.

So, it's likely that sometime between April and June we'll get another Simbieda epic ramble about how much he loves everyone and wants to restart the discussion on a good, healthy, and forgiving note.

Will we be getting a new thread at that point?

Merijeek wrote:
So, it's likely that sometime between April and June we'll get another Simbieda epic ramble about how much he loves everyone and wants to restart the discussion on a good, healthy, and forgiving note.

Will we be getting a new thread at that point?

I proposed a third thread a few weeks ago when the "relaunch" occurs as this one is getting long in the tooth but that relaunch, like reward completion, keeps moving further off in the distance. The relaunch/love fest apology will likely be the two slices of bread on the massive gak sandwich that tells us the next problem that totally isn't their fault but we valued backers have to pay the price. The only thing that remains to be seen is exactly what combination of one to all of the following it will contain:

1) We're shipping to multipe waves to stores first for months before any backers get their stuff (ala the AVP kickstarter)

2) We're just flat out not making certain models and you'll just have to deal with it; if you're lucky we'll give you a choice on crap you don't want more of (ala the HG kickstarter)

3) We're delaying the completion officially to 2017 (ala the... well.. this Robotech kickstarter)

4) China/Ninja Division/Geese/Harmony Gold supposedly screwed us over and we're just going to give you nothing while staying silent for years (ala the Ice Age Mammals kickstarter)

5) Screw this... we're going out of business and legally absolving us from your rewards (ala the Defiance Games kickstarter)

I'm curious how many bad habits this one kickstarter can accrue.

@warboss - I think #2 is a very distinct possibility, due to how DP9 appears to be getting away with it.

Quite frankly, losing the Jotun Valks wouldn't be the worst thing... Same with the VF-4s and drones. I doubt many would miss them. Especially for how bad the drones look.

As long as we get the Armored / Super / Strike Valks, MPA & FPA, and Monster, that would be fine. Plus alternate cards for the named characters.

OTOH, drop the Monster, and I'll be getting out the torches & pitchforks!

 warboss wrote:
I'm curious how many bad habits this one kickstarter can accrue.

Gah! Do they not have enough bad habits as it is?
They had plenty prior to this KS, never mind developing new ones!
You know, I am shocked how low an opinion I have of a bunch of people that are employed and are not known recreational drug users.
Shocking I tell you!

Well, the Hotlead gaming weekend coming up on the 18th in my (approximate) area.
I wonder how many RRT starter kits will be at the "bring and buy"?
http://www.hotlead.ca/
Anyone going, let me know... maybe we can play RRT... hehehehe

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@warboss - I think #2 is a very distinct possibility, due to how DP9 appears to be getting away with it.

Quite frankly, losing the Jotun Valks wouldn't be the worst thing... Same with the VF-4s and drones. I doubt many would miss them. Especially for how bad the drones look.

As long as we get the Armored / Super / Strike Valks, MPA & FPA, and Monster, that would be fine. Plus alternate cards for the named characters.

OTOH, drop the Monster, and I'll be getting out the torches & pitchforks!

Yeah, the VF-4, Jotun, and remaining experimental zentraedi bits should be one of the first to go (along with remaining custom bases if any and the objective markers like the tuna). They weren't really in the show (except for a few seconds in a single episode if that). After that, I'd say get rid of special characters and just turn them all into a single sprue of a couple of variant bits that you add onto a standard model of the same type (so Roy Fokker just gets a variant cockpit canopy x3 for example). After that, I'd say the various space non-transforming stuff like lancers and ghosts even though they also were in a few episodes. Next up and a last resort would be the VEF/trainer combo kit; while the trainer was the focus in a few episodes, the VEF was just a quicky shot like the above but I'd personally give it priority simply for being an iconic veritech variant over the lancer and ghost. Anything more than that and I'd say they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face. YMMV. I would point out that I would be getting some of the above in my wave 2 shipment so I'm not just cherry picking stuff I didn't order or don't care about.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Uh, Robotech Wave 1 is in hand. DP9 hasn't delivered anything.

I shouldn't try to make jokes while I'm sick. I think I may have pulled something doing so.

 Talizvar wrote:
Gah! Do they not have enough bad habits as it is?
They had plenty prior to this KS, never mind developing new ones!

I suppose that's what they mean when they claim that the old dog Palladium is indeed capable of learning new tricks... but they just end up picking up equally irresponsible habits for new mediums instead of learning from their previous mistakes. Eh, a year to several years late on almost every RPG book so a a year to several years late on almost every crowdfunding and minis project as well. Progress, Palladium style.

 warboss wrote:

Spoiler:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@warboss - I think #2 is a very distinct possibility, due to how DP9 appears to be getting away with it.

Quite frankly, losing the Jotun Valks wouldn't be the worst thing... Same with the VF-4s and drones. I doubt many would miss them. Especially for how bad the drones look.

As long as we get the Armored / Super / Strike Valks, MPA & FPA, and Monster, that would be fine. Plus alternate cards for the named characters.

OTOH, drop the Monster, and I'll be getting out the torches & pitchforks!

Yeah, the VF-4, Jotun, and remaining experimental zentraedi bits should be one of the first to go (along with remaining custom bases if any and the objective markers like the tuna). They weren't really in the show (except for a few seconds in a single episode if that). After that, I'd say get rid of special characters and just turn them all into a single sprue of a couple of variant bits that you add onto a standard model of the same type (so Roy Fokker just gets a variant cockpit canopy x3 for example). After that, I'd say the various space non-transforming stuff like lancers and ghosts even though they also were in a few episodes. Next up and a last resort would be the VEF/trainer combo kit; while the trainer was the focus in a few episodes, the VEF was just a quicky shot like the above but I'd personally give it priority simply for being an iconic veritech variant over the lancer and ghost. Anything more than that and I'd say they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face. YMMV. I would point out that I would be getting some of the above in my wave 2 shipment so I'm not just cherry picking stuff I didn't order or don't care about.

I'm basically agreed with all of that, although I'd probably be OK with the names just getting a generic Valk / FPA model and a special card. The Strike / Super / VEF / trainer bits can be on a sprue and packed with the existing Valks, Armored needs to be its own kit, but fortunately, it's basically a Destroid, so not too complex. So 2 sprues to cover all of the Valk whatnots. Then still need a sprue for the MPAs, another sprue for the FPAs, and a couple sprues for the Monster. So that's a half-dozen new sprues to cover the several things that people will want most.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm basically agreed with all of that, although I'd probably be OK with the names just getting a generic Valk / FPA model and a special card. The Strike / Super / VEF / trainer bits can be on a sprue and packed with the existing Valks, Armored needs to be its own kit, but fortunately, it's basically a Destroid, so not too complex. So 2 sprues to cover all of the Valk whatnots. Then still need a sprue for the MPAs, another sprue for the FPAs, and a couple sprues for the Monster. So that's a half-dozen new sprues to cover the several things that people will want most.

The problem is, from a purely business point, the first thing to be cut would be the Monster (after cutting character models for the reasoning I give below). While I understand you've got a personal jonesing for it, it'd make sense.

From what I've seen of the scale, the Monster is going to be at least 2 sprues, probably at least 3, and not unreasonably 4. For argument's sake, I'll use three. And lets assuming a similar MSRP calculation to what they've already done.

The existing models are at most, two distinct sprues per. Battleoid and Guardian/Fighter, Destroid 1 and Destroid 2. Some, like BP and BPArty are singular.

So that means the fixed costs of a single sprue box is X, a dual sprue box is 2X, and a Monster is 3X. Now, as the MSRP of the Monster is twice that (for the most part) of a normal box, it could essentially count as 1.5X.

But then you need to take into account relative rarity. While it's most definitely a showpiece mecha, that works against it. While most players might purchase a squad of any other thing (AValk, SValk, Jotun, etc), they might purchase more. But few people are going to want to own more than a single Monster, and a significant if minority portion won't want any. That it was an addon may or may not work against it. We don't know how many were pre-ordered. If it were significant, then nullifying it is harder. But if it was only several hundred, then you're looking at needing to sell several thousand at retail just to pay for the cost of producing it.

From what I can see, the order of completion would be
AValks (single sprue most desired, not a BC unit, but one that should sell signifcantly, making number purchased new, vs dead weight to backers, a good point),
SValk (dual sprue most desired),
Lancer/Ghost (if they're smart, they'd do them on the same sprue, as it'd make it cheaper to punch, and they'd just have to deal with backers who paid for one, and not the other, easily handled if they do it as snapaways.),
Jotun/YF-4/VEF1D (progressively less niche, progressively more expensive),
Monster,
Character Models (because they'd be lucky to sell enough at Conventions to ever get back the costs required to make them, unless they try to get around Konsclusives, which let's face it, is an expectation at this point).

For the Zen,
FPA (single sprue, most desired)
MPA (single sprue, second most desired of remaining)
Gnerls (only to satisfy BC issues)
Zent Inf (SHOULD be able to do single sprue, 3 poses per, but I don't count on PB to do it right)
Glaug Eldare (same issues as the Monster, less sprues, but likely less interest).
Character Models for the same reason.

The thing is, I think a lot of people put money into the Monster, because it is the visual centerpiece. Consider how many 40k players own (Knight) Titans, for example.

Also, the number of symmetrical parts on the Monster actually brings the tooling cost down. The Monster can be done as 2 tools (hull / arms+legs+guns), but they'd have to throw 2 sets of arms+legs+guns sprues in each box.

Remember, most of the intent is to capture things from the anime. That means Valks, Pods, Destroids & PAs. Not Jotuns and Drones.

As above, the Characters don't require any tooling. They only require printing, which is pennies.

I'm sorta expecting PB to just throw up their hands at some point. Maybe offer store credit or discounts off of Rifts books. Or give away the left over core sets.

But converting the character models to a single add-on sprue that just offers customizable bits is a pretty smart idea.

I agree that making a small add-on sprue coupled with an existing model kit is the way to go. GW has been doing that for years. The character veritechs should be simple. Some hand, leg and arm alternatives and a different decal sheet.

Ctaylor wrote:I'm sorta expecting PB to just throw up their hands at some point. Maybe offer store credit or discounts off of Rifts books. Or give away the left over core sets.

But converting the character models to a single add-on sprue that just offers customizable bits is a pretty smart idea.

That's my thought too.
Kevin: "Here kiddies, have a Kickstarter Grab Bag filled with refrigerator art and Coalition coffee mugs. We'll even throw in a free Rifter so you can check out our other product lines, 'cuz we know once you see them, you'll gotta have 'em."

Talizvar wrote:I agree that making a small add-on sprue coupled with an existing model kit is the way to go. GW has been doing that for years. The character veritechs should be simple. Some hand, leg and arm alternatives and a different decal sheet.

Characters would be the one thing I wouldn't miss. We already have the stat cards and the minis are too small to get any decoration cut into them that would be worthy of being distinct. Best bet does seem to go to just throw in the existing models sprues, a card and some decals/paint guides.

Though I don't expect we will EVER see Wave 2 at this point, PB announcing they're cutting the monster in order to finish the rest of line would just be the topping to this disaster.

I think this is setting the bar too high. Remember that Kevin thinks that we've already gotten more than what we put in based on their inflated msrp. Maybe they'll offer credit for the add-ons that weren't produced, but I don't expect them to offer anything for the outstanding battlecry/showdown/reckless sets.

 Ctaylor wrote:
I'm sorta expecting PB to just throw up their hands at some point. Maybe offer store credit or discounts off of Rifts books. Or give away the left over core sets.

But converting the character models to a single add-on sprue that just offers customizable bits is a pretty smart idea.

 Stormonu wrote:

Talizvar wrote:I agree that making a small add-on sprue coupled with an existing model kit is the way to go. GW has been doing that for years. The character veritechs should be simple. Some hand, leg and arm alternatives and a different decal sheet.

Characters would be the one thing I wouldn't miss. We already have the stat cards and the minis are too small to get any decoration cut into them that would be worthy of being distinct. Best bet does seem to go to just throw in the existing models sprues, a card and some decals/paint guides.

Though I don't expect we will EVER see Wave 2 at this point, PB announcing they're cutting the monster in order to finish the rest of line would just be the topping to this disaster.

At this point though, I don't think PB can do any of these changes without a significant backlash. While some people seem to have a hate-on for DP9 (and I'm not arguing it's not justified, I read the other Dakka thread), this is really the first issue the Heavy Gear Kickstarter itself has had (other than the relatively minor delay), and they were reasonably upfront about the issue (could have been handled better, but wasn't handled horribly), have been fairly decent about showing the process to backers, and seem close to fulfillment, May being the last date given.

Contrast that with the PB Kickstarter, where they've been promising rainbows and roses for years, and a fairly systematic destruction of any goodwill. Any changes, particularly unilateral ones, is likely to be met much more harshly at this point. Even something that several years ago, might have been accepted, like removing character models. Especially given that 343 backers backed exclusively for a Rick Hunter model. Telling them that they could have had a regular Veritech 18+ months ago, but were strung along on wishful thinking and promises Wave 2 would be done, but now, well, screw them, PB don't want to pay for the mold.

The opportunity for PB to do anything but fulfill what was initially promised (or alternately, offer refunds), is well passed. Too many promises made, too many promises broken, too much time has passed. Some people would accept the unilateral change, but I think enough others wouldn't. And triggering the "If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards" part of the T&C. And that'd (IMO) result in sufficient numbers of backers wanting to put the refund clause into effect, that it'd sink it. Because while I don't necessarily think there's a majority who are completely done with the project at this point, there's at least a significant minority who are, and I don't think PB could afford that.

Morgan Vening wrote:
Especially given that 343 backers backed exclusively for a Rick Hunter model. Telling them that they could have had a regular Veritech 18+ months ago, but were strung along on wishful thinking and promises Wave 2 would be done, but now, well, screw them, PB don't want to pay for the mold.

I could see a pewter or resin add-on blister pack thrown in a regular Veritech pack for the character, Super, Armored and scout/trainer variants as the easiest "cop-out" but the various Zent models will not be as pleasant a thing to work around. The larger models desperately need to be "normal" plastic though it might have a shot as resin.

One can only hope those boys at PB have a clue and while they are "exploring their options" they can run with some ideas of their fanbase to get them out of whatever hole they fell into.

If they had to get rid of anything they can lose the lancer and zent experimental stuff. I'd rather keep the vf-4 and ghost. I'd rather have everything so please stop giving Kevin's mini spy's ideas that they can take back to their lord and savior. They'll probably present it as their idea.

At this point, even delivering what was promised -- to the letter -- would not generate much goodwill. At best, it can be said that the KS finally delivered.

Drop anything, irregularities, more delays, say something wrong on social media.. basically PB dug itself into a hole where everything they can do, including deliver, would be condemned by someone somewhere somewhen.

They said they want to do a relaunch, which... is up to them. But the rep of the game is basically soured, so it'd be twice as difficult. And they hadn't demonstrate much ability to learn from past mistakes.

So, Miniature Market has some RRT stuff at over 50% off MSRP.

I really want to get some of those ONE star reviewed destroids! None of the others have an actual review.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Zent Inf (SHOULD be able to do single sprue, 3 poses per, but I don't count on PB to do it right)

problem is there are 2 types of infantry units too.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
If they had to get rid of anything they can lose the lancer and zent experimental stuff. I'd rather keep the vf-4 and ghost. I'd rather have everything so please stop giving Kevin's mini spy's ideas that they can take back to their lord and savior. They'll probably present it as their idea.

I do no mind giving them ideas as long as it can move them forward... being able to give models a pass however I would not agree to.

They have the capability to build these models, it just may not be the same way as wave 2 due to "reasons".
But because of some type of financial crisis, the feet are truly dragging.

 warboss wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
So, it's likely that sometime between April and June we'll get another Simbieda epic ramble about how much he loves everyone and wants to restart the discussion on a good, healthy, and forgiving note.

Will we be getting a new thread at that point?

I proposed a third thread a few weeks ago when the "relaunch" occurs as this one is getting long in the tooth but that relaunch, like reward completion, keeps moving further off in the distance. The relaunch/love fest apology will likely be the two slices of bread on the massive gak sandwich that tells us the next problem that totally isn't their fault but we valued backers have to pay the price. The only thing that remains to be seen is exactly what combination of one to all of the following it will contain:

1) We're shipping to multipe waves to stores first for months before any backers get their stuff (ala the AVP kickstarter)

2) We're just flat out not making certain models and you'll just have to deal with it; if you're lucky we'll give you a choice on crap you don't want more of (ala the HG kickstarter)

3) We're delaying the completion officially to 2017 (ala the... well.. this Robotech kickstarter)

4) China/Ninja Division/Geese/Harmony Gold supposedly screwed us over and we're just going to give you nothing while staying silent for years (ala the Ice Age Mammals kickstarter)

5) Screw this... we're going out of business and legally absolving us from your rewards (ala the Defiance Games kickstarter)

I'm curious how many bad habits this one kickstarter can accrue.

well some interesting points of fact on your points

#1 that would violate their backers first pledge, but on the other hand all those who voted yes on the GenCon vote gave up their rights to being first, and considering PB declared all those who do not vote gave approval too, that removes them from the pledge too, so only those who expressly did not give PB permission would have to have their product delivered first if at all.

#2 that will still violate the terms of the agreement unless those who have purchased said items agree to a refund or replacement, or PB refunds for said items.

#3 thats already a given.

#4 the first part is wrong Kevin screwed them (look at all the other licenses HG has given out that don't even have half these problems), they can stay silent, but they will eventually have to account for things, it all depends on how long the bulk of the backers will wait.

#5 doubt Kevin wants to do that since he would lose his beloved Rifts, and still be held liable to kickstarter backers as is being shown on the All Quiet on the Martian Front where the backers are considered creditors, so after the company is dissolved by the courts the backers would get some form of retribution (unlike what some have said) and they would not be at the tail end of the disbursement of any funds (like others have said), but an equal creditor like all other companies and banks PB owes money too.

if PB declares Bankruptcy all property of the company and/or anything tied to the company will be auctioned off by court sanctioned order and the funds from said auction divided amongst the creditors.

Of course these options would 'violate agreements/pledges', we're talking about hypothetical options for going off the plotted course to make things work with reduced or minimal resources, if they were so inclined (they're not, obviously).

How important those things (getting things before retail, getting every single model, etc) were to people would be a backer to backer choice. Obviously some of the 5k+ would love any choice they made, some would hate it, many would be apathetic, etc.

Whatever people thought personally, it's an interesting (purely academic) pondering to think how they might do or have done things differently.

Declaring things like "people who voted one way gave up rights" is obnoxious, doubly so on a pondered hypothetical.

Yeah, #5 is not going to happen. PB declaring bankruptcy will bring out all of the claimants, and they will rip Kevin a new one in court. The ensuing legal fees will drive him to personal bankruptcy if he doesn't immediately put PB into receivership. Don't think that there aren't a number of backers who wouldn't enjoy using the legal system as a cudgel to make a well-deserved example of Kevin.

#2 is very likely, as the Pod is totally getting away with changing the deal *and* No Refunds. That is precisely the sort of thing that Kevin likes to see.

The pod iirc is also under the newer tou unlike pb

 Forar wrote:

Declaring things like "people who voted one way gave up rights" is obnoxious, doubly so on a pondered hypothetical.

obnoxious or not its the truth, the voters set precedent, for PB to sell the items before delivering to those backers, and that will be one way PB gets an out and such, but then thats if PB ever comes up with the money to finish wave 2 to which at this point it is looking less and less likely.

What it all comes down to is the backers of this project are a lazy bunch and very apathetic who will let others do the work while they do nothing, and this is what Kevin is counting on, until you backers gather in force and do something, you will get nothing.

It doesn't set gak. They were asked their opinion on one thing, and they gave it. It was a poll, not a suicide pact. Anyone who voted yes may have been overly generous to PB on the matter, but it in no way would count as some sort of legally binding anything, let alone giving up a 'right'.

IF pb wanted to progress in some fashion that required feedback from the community, they would need to obtain it anew. New issue, time has passed, new poll or survey or whatever. Obviously they don't, or if they might they haven't found their hand forced in that direction yet, but as fellow gamers let's try to show a little imagination here.

Can people not have an academic discussion about "What If" scenarios?

And if backers weren't ready to file, they weren't ready to file. Blaming other backers as somehow negligent for not acting how you wanted them to, when you wanted them to, is quite self centered.

Whether the legal tsunami became a legal wading pool, or whatever it was that happened that you'll reference obliquely but not confront directly, that was their choice to make then, and as seen in this thread and the KS comments, more do make every so often.