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Once again I see a bunch of new names popping up in the KS update comments saying how upset they are. I really hope that they follow the links and actually file. Wayne is completely out of touch if he thinks this one pitiful gesture is going to quell any upset.

More promises to update, if history proves anything, equates to another few months of silence and platitudes.

Someone pass me the lube, this is beginning to hurt.

Just close your eyes and think of Rifts™® England™® Book™® Two™®.

Merijeek wrote:
Just close your eyes and think of Rifts™® England™® Book™® Two™®.

Some interesting plot hooks and reboots of legendary characters but the interior art in there REALLY took a turn for the worse for the product line. The cover was much more D&D than rifts but very nice nevertheless.

@warboss:

<-- the joke
(you)

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@warboss:

<-- the joke
(you)

Thanks for the link. I'll admit that my turn of the century English feminine sexual inneudo knowledge base is lacking.

 warboss wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Just close your eyes and think of Rifts™® England™® Book™® Two™®.

Some interesting plot hooks and reboots of legendary characters but the interior art in there REALLY took a turn for the worse for the product line. The cover was much more D&D than rifts but very nice nevertheless.

I think England was one of my least favourite world books. It was heavy on the fluff, granted, but the adventure hooks just didn't really grab me.

I mean.... leaf armour? MAGIC LEAF ARMOUR!?

Also the Arthurian stuff never really caught our eye. Atlantis and Africa (the WB's that preceded and followed it) had considerably more impacts in our games at least.

Well my BBB complaint has timed out with no response from PB so ill now be proceeding with the small claims court. I'll post up my evidence pack and so forth when I'm ready to go on with it.

 Forar wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Just close your eyes and think of Rifts™® England™® Book™® Two™®.

Some interesting plot hooks and reboots of legendary characters but the interior art in there REALLY took a turn for the worse for the product line. The cover was much more D&D than rifts but very nice nevertheless.

I think England was one of my least favourite world books. It was heavy on the fluff, granted, but the adventure hooks just didn't really grab me.

I mean.... leaf armour? MAGIC LEAF ARMOUR!?

Also the Arthurian stuff never really caught our eye. Atlantis and Africa (the WB's that preceded and followed it) had considerably more impacts in our games at least.

You're just an ignorant Canadian savage. Do you know no Tennyson? As he said, "Leaves are but the oak's plate and maile".

Duh.

winterdyne wrote:Well my BBB complaint has timed out with no response from PB so ill now be proceeding with the small claims court. I'll post up my evidence pack and so forth when I'm ready to go on with it.

Keep us updated on how it goes and the possible work around of likely not being physically present for the case works.

Merijeek wrote:

 Forar wrote:

I mean.... leaf armour? MAGIC LEAF ARMOUR!?

Also the Arthurian stuff never really caught our eye. Atlantis and Africa (the WB's that preceded and followed it) had considerably more impacts in our games at least.

You're just an ignorant Canadian savage. Do you know no Tennyson? As he said, "Leaves are but the oak's plate and maile".

Duh.

Don't tell Forar but I think he's just jealous that his colonial commonwealth overlords got the leaf armor and not RiftsTM: CanadaTM Eh?TM. First they came for their leaves and next it'll be flanel!

@Forar: I liked Atlantis but not so much Africa. I wasn't really happy with how the whole four horsemen thing turned out overall (and frankly can't even remember the details at the moment). It was a big silly build up and then a massive letdown just like the Coalition Wars series of books.

Oh, those were just the content that bookended England, which I happened to like more.

My actual favourites were, based on the ones I've actually kept;

Triax (Book 5)
Coalition War Campaign (Book 11)
Psyscape (Book 12)

There were others that I appreciated for fluff or crunch reasons (Juicer Uprising, New West, Federation of Magic), even if I didn't use them all that often for characters myself.

Hell, my forum handle stems from the first Rifts character I ever played, made using a class and other stuff from Triax.

Two decades ago as of sometime this year, if I'm not mistaken.

 Forar wrote:
Oh, those were just the content that bookended England, which I happened to like more.

My actual favourites were, based on the ones I've actually kept;

Triax (Book 5)
Coalition War Campaign (Book 11)
Psyscape (Book 12)

There were others that I appreciated for fluff or crunch reasons (Juicer Uprising, New West, Federation of Magic), even if I didn't use them all that often for characters myself.

Hell, my forum handle stems from the first Rifts character I ever played, made using a class and other stuff from Triax.

Two decades ago as of sometime this year, if I'm not mistaken.

Triax is absolutely my favorite as well. I was really excited in an irrational sort of way when Triax 2 came out (knowing that the decade inbetween was not.. um... kind to the creativity and talent of Palladium) but it was just a letdown, especially the art and robot designs (my favorite part of Triax 1). Outside of Robotech, the Triax designs were my fav pieces of art from Kevin Long. If I had to list the other favs, I'd say in no particular order after the first:

Triax 1, Original/Revised Sourcebook, Vampire Kingdoms, Rifts Conversion Manual 1, Phase World, and Underseas. Close but not quite (again in no particular order) would be Wormwood, the second Triax expansion sourcebook (the one with the Brodkil empire covered in depth, NOT Triax 2), and Rifts Japan (which would have been in the top 6 if not for the art).

Morgan Vening wrote:
UPDATE!
Short version, blurry postage stamp (233x303 pixel) of a metal cast of the SDF1 resin, that was sculpted a long time ago, and they forgot to show backers.
Also, SOME backers are mean, and shouldn't say that Wave 2 is not happening. End of message.
So, there, haterz. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. They're promising that they're working on it, and here's an inferior photo to "prove" it.

Joyboozer wrote:
No new information, horribly grainy pic they admit is old and unfinished, number of likes currently 27.
I'd post a slow clap gif, but don't think any of them deserve to be associated with Palladium.

Ayup - when only a low percentage of folks even comment in the first place on any particular forum, that there is inevitably still those who'll ''like'' information they may not even have read gets more than a little tiresome.
That a number of those ''liking'' such dross actually believe in it or have no problem with it, whether they always vocally defend it or not, does not imply nice things about our shared species.

Plus of course such examples (is a handful an outpouring?) of ''obvious devotion'' can apparently have a considerable effect in helping to prop up by a company for years, or at least be used as indicators (justifications?) of ''we must not be doing anything wrong''.

 darkminstrel wrote:
Once again I see a bunch of new names popping up in the KS update comments saying how upset they are.

Something I find personally amusing (not about how the backers have been treated, mind) is that I've seen at least two folks make comments against Palladium, yet at the same time they're somehow perfectly okay with another company *cough*DP9*cough* pulling the same kind of stunts either now or in the past.

It was a rather a mind-bending WTF..?! realization for me when those names finally sunk in; folks are inconsistent, because you know, they're people and all, but still.

_
_

Well, you see, DP9 isn't yet 3 years in like Palladium... Tho I do like how people are defending DP9 shorting product (while announcing all new Jovian Chronicles stuff that appeared out of nowhere), and not allowing refunds for changing the deal.

As I see it, Palladium is still promising that they'll deliver everything. Eventually.

DP9 is definitely shorting backers, while promising to deliver the balance only a few months late.

From a basic delivery standpoint, Palladium having delivered 30%, and promising to deliver 100% beats DP9 having delivered nothing and promising to deliver at most 90%.

We'll see how this pans out, but I know for a fact that I've got some RRT models in hand and built...

Sorry, a DP9 in hand beats Wave 2 in the bush.

Uh, Robotech Wave 1 is in hand. DP9 hasn't delivered anything.

DP9 have delivered 74 man hours per day from one guy for months. You can't argue with that kind of commitment. Also fewer gears than were promised but these things happen...

I'm not a backer for Heavy Gear, but didn't they allow people to reallocate funds, change up pledge manager stuff, and order pewter versions of the one they'd be unable to buy plastic kits for? I remember someone mentioning they had lined up a considerable number of ways they were trying to make good on the matter.

I don't know how incredible/mouth watering that specific mech or design was, but if a KS said "hey guys, our currency dropped by like 20% in the last year, we're in the weeds without some changes", I think I'd be pretty understanding of what is entirely out of their control/an act of god/etc.

I definitely wouldn't equate "we're working, and have stuff to show, and apologize for issues beyond our control" to " *silence for 12 months* ".

But again, I'm not a backer, so if there are intricacies or extenuating aspects to this, I'm open to hearing about it.

 plastictrees wrote:
DP9 have delivered 74 man hours per day from one guy for months. You can't argue with that kind of commitment. Also fewer gears than were promised but these things happen...

I think someone needs to ask Kevin how many hours he's pouring into Robotech each and every day. I bet he'll tell you it's way more than that each day. 400 days a year. And that's just Kevin alone.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Uh, Robotech Wave 1 is in hand. DP9 hasn't delivered anything.

Palladium delivered less than half of the rewards promised one full year late (more if you weren't in NA) and is on track to deliver nothing for the subsequent two after that. Until DP9 is a year late, it's not a fair comparison.

Life isn't fair, that's a given. Just because Palladium is more gak, doesn't give the Pod a pass when they feth up.

 Forar wrote:

I definitely wouldn't equate "we're working, and have stuff to show, and apologize for issues beyond our control" to " *silence for 12 months* ".

But again, I'm not a backer, so if there are intricacies or extenuating aspects to this, I'm open to hearing about it.

That about covers it. The only thing I'd add is that they knew they'd have to pay in USD for production and saw the $CAD tanking for months but chose to do nothing about it (like transfer it to USD). That part was in their control even if the actual value of the currency wasn't.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Life isn't fair, that's a given. Just because Palladium is more gak, doesn't give the Pod a pass when they feth up.

Correct... but that doesn't make your comparison any more valid. The kickstarters were separated iirc by almost 2 years; that should factor into any reasonable comparison of progress when discussing product in hand.

DP9 looks good. Next to Palladium, that is.

That's not saying much, when you think about it...

 plastictrees wrote:
DP9 have delivered 74 man hours per day from one guy for months. You can't argue with that kind of commitment.

When Kevin or his supporters make that kind of claim it's obviously complete BS - because their word has demonstrably and so very obviously been the total opposite of reality even before their Kickstarter.
How is that reality any different for any other company with a similarly checkered past, who're all the time saying the exact same words, and expecting everyone to believe the statement based on nothing more than that unsupported word alone.

The point I was trying to make had not much to do with any KS in particular, but rather how one company can operate in a shady fashion yet still garner support from folks who're somehow simultaneously against another company operating in the exact same manner.

 Forar wrote:
I'm not a backer for Heavy Gear, but didn't they allow people to reallocate funds, change up pledge manager stuff, and order pewter versions of the one they'd be unable to buy plastic kits for? I remember someone mentioning they had lined up a considerable number of ways they were trying to make good on the matter.

It was offered (albeit at a small increment) because the Pod went with a strict no refunds policy, even if folks did not want any product other than the models that were cut.
The main page for the DP9 KS states no refunds will (ever) be offered, but I can't tell and don't remember if it stated that before/during/since the campaign or if that was an edit around the time of the update announcing that two (2) unlocked models would be cut.

Basically the reasoning given, as no clear explanation was/has been offered, is that the majority of the monies pledged was already spent on molds whose final quote was higher than expected on top of unexpected extreme currency fluctuations.
There is also a question in the minds of a few as to what use the up to ~$15K saved by not making a sixth mold is intended or if that was to large extent subsumed by the CAD fluctuation, but as yet there has been no company response (With none expected).


Again, I was not trying to equate one KS with another, just observing the similarities between supporters and detractors of these two companies when considered as part of a larger picture.
As for the rest of your question, probably best to skim through the dedicated HG KS thread here on dakka.

_
_

 HudsonD wrote:
DP9 looks good. Next to Palladium, that is.

That's not saying much, when you think about it...

That's pretty much the Pod's entire story... at least we're not Palladium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Life isn't fair, that's a given. Just because Palladium is more gak, doesn't give the Pod a pass when they feth up.

Correct... but that doesn't make your comparison any more valid. The kickstarters were separated iirc by almost 2 years; that should factor into any reasonable comparison of progress when discussing product in hand.

OTOH, it's obvious that Palladium diverted Robotech money to fund RIFTS, just as the Pod diverted at least $15k of HG monies to fund Jovian Chronicles.

 Smilodon_UP wrote:

The point I was trying to make had not much to do with any KS in particular, but rather how one company can operate in a shady fashion yet still garner support from folks who're somehow simultaneously against another company operating in the exact same manner.

I'm not sure if that's about me but, if so, I'd say that my difference in opinion on how the two kickstarters have progressed is because suck isn't binary but rather a spectrum. It mildly sucks that DP9 is running 6+ months late and are only delivering 90% of the sculpts promised with no recompense for backers losing out on a pair of models per sweetspot pledge... but it majorly sucks that palladium delivered a third of the sculpts and only half the models one year late and there is no sign of the rest 2.5 years post funding. Neither is good but one is a hellavu lot worse IMO. This is of course comparing just the kickstarters and not the stupid and/or shady things both companies have done pre-KS over the decades. The severity of the reaction should be proportional to the initial action.

To be fair, if you would just go back a page, you would see Palladium's latest "progress" with the SDF-1 promised for Wave 2. Just sayin'.

I find there are too many variables to compare for a proper "apples to apples" comparison of how good or bad a job a company does on a KS.
I am not terribly familiar with DP9's KS but if they communicate something went wrong, that is good.
To give options when they cannot do as promised, is also a good thing (as long as they are "viable" alternatives).
To receive some kind of "meaningful" communication at least makes the customer feel engaged rather than the guessing game we have with PB.

I have seen it played out time and time again: companies and people will make errors or mess-up royally, what really shows what they are made of is how they handle it and try to make good with their customers. Or how others just look at what is expedient for them...

While it's never going to be a perfect apples to apples comparison, HG seems to be dealing with problems vastly more transparently than RRT.

It might be a complete gakshow. Dropping one model might be the end of days and completely ruin the game for some people, but at least they're talking about it.

I wouldn't be happy to hear that the Super VTs were being skipped to save money, or something like that, but as we've pointed out repeatedly here, Updates aren't just for good news. Admitting to massive problems and presenting good faith efforts to resolve them (even if they don't please every last backer) is infinitely preferable to having massive problems and being silent for an entire year.

Whether or not their resolution chosen pleases 100% of their backers, the fact they've admitted to problems and are trying to offer choices within their control to placate as many backers as possible is a stance I'd have been much happier to see from PB than the forced cheerfulness and 'golly gee how did we forget to show off this pic we've had for ages?' bull that landed last week.

Also, the pedant in me would like to note that we received 70/97 figures per Battle Cry, making it much closer to 2/3 by raw quantity (though admittedly that's ignoring add ons, which some I know went into heavily, such as our long suffering Decal recipient).

 Talizvar wrote:
I find there are too many variables to compare for a proper "apples to apples" comparison of how good or bad a job a company does on a KS.
I am not terribly familiar with DP9's KS but if they communicate something went wrong, that is good.
To give options when they cannot do as promised, is also a good thing (as long as they are "viable" alternatives).
To receive some kind of "meaningful" communication at least makes the customer feel engaged rather than the guessing game we have with PB.

I have seen it played out time and time again: companies and people will make errors or mess-up royally, what really shows what they are made of is how they handle it and try to make good with their customers. Or how others just look at what is expedient for them...

They've done an ok job with communication overall and have even been good at times (whether or not folks like the actual content of what they're communicating is another story). They could have commented on the ongoing currency issue during the full year+ in between funding and their proposed delivery date; instead they chose to finally say "Houston, we have a problem..." two months after they were supposed to have delivered all rewards. I suppose during the intervening 15 months they were crossing their fingers, lighting candles at church, and pinky swearing to never delay again in the future hoping that things would change in the present but they didn't and backers end up paying (the admittedly minor) price. They communicated open and honestly a few months late but that's still better than Palladium's never several years in regarding most of the sculpts.

Shrug. I'm one of those who think DP9 is doing a decent job, so I'm biased. And I'm not saying DP9 is doing a decent job relative to PB, I'm just saying they are doing a decent job.

Their decision to drop a couple of models from the box, to me is ok. The problem was understandable -- currency depreciation. Some of you may not feel it but for us non-US folks who buy into plasticrack, it's a real problem.. my currency went from 1.2 to 1.4+ to the greenback and that, along with all the shipping cost jumps, curtained buying.

So they made the decision to drop stuff, and yeah they chose to drop something and tell us after the fact. I'm ok with that because.. well, it's a business not a democracy. They are running the show and I expect them to make rational decisions, with information that isn't based on bias (like mine would be). What they chose to drop, from what I can see, were non-fatal and were fairly niche anyway.

Could they have handled the decision making differently? Sure, they could have offered the backers a vote, and then sure, we could tally up and then make a call... but basically the vote would have been rigged and we'd have been given an illusion of choice anyway.

(For a quick reason why the vote would have been rigged: They're not going to get rid of basic units nor popular units that will benefit them in terms of economics of scale. They won't shoot a whole faction either. So the only things available to get dropped were things that were niche or fringe anyway. So it's just an illusion of choice.)

Comms are ok, especially closer to the end now with much more manufacturing niceties; previously they had shots of in-progress, which PB could have done similarly. Now they have shots of molds with obvious HGB stuff in it. Believable, yes? We see proof that they are moving into manufacturing. To me is good enough, to others is not. Shrug, C'est la Vie.