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 Stormonu wrote:
Ok, I've heard this mentioned before and I just want to know if it is what I think it is - but what is a Zhent Kickline and why is it so fearsome?

It's the act of surrounding an enemy model (usually one that's a ranged combat specialist) with battlepods, so that the model is unable to fire, and in the case of RDF, protects the battlepods from being shot at. Doing this also has the advantage of making the Battlepods much more survivable to their targets as well. A Battlepod has 5MDC. A GU-11 (6MDC) or a missile (9MDC) kills one. But if the Destroid is forced into an engagement, their damage potential is more limited than it once was.

Kicks are the only non-conditional close combat attack that Battlepods are capable of (Body Block would move the enemy, Jump Kick requires CP and still adds to the kickline concept, and Stomp is very conditional). And the damage isn't a significant drop. A kick does 3MDC damage, their particle cannons do 4MDC. So for a small drop in offence, you dramatically increase their defence. And with Life is Cheap, you don't even prohibit your Glaug shooting the crap out of the target.

As the movement rules explictily state you can't move through an enemy unit, that means three Battlepods can lock up regular Destroid easily (two if there's other obstacles or models nearby). So the goal is, lock up all the shooty units with Battlepods, and just trade off kicking each other to pieces.

I can't say as to how effective that is (as I've never played), but people who have, do say it seems like the strongest option for Zen vs RDF, as a shooting war seems to HEAVILY favor RDF. Especially as with a 10" move (5 + Leap), their 18" guns start to look even less attractive.

 Stormonu wrote:
Ok, I've heard this mentioned before and I just want to know if it is what I think it is - but what is a Zhent Kickline and why is it so fearsome?

You kinda stunble into it which is the funny thing.
At some point you will be close enough to a bunch of pods and decide to assault them (they are only pods right?).
Now work out the bonuses for each model you are caught in melee with (3MD base, then being "outnumbered" +1 strike bonus for each friendly model in base to base) .
Pods tend to be rather plentiful.
They have no arms but they can kick.
A Veritech dies like a dog in short order (since they can fly, you could escape but I find the first round of kicking is enough for a smoking wreck).

It's one of those boogeyman that people say happened in ONE game and so things were broken. I've played many more games than most people and I've never had more than a couple instances of Hand to Hand. The reason and rhyme of doing a kickline is for such a tiny and specific case as to be ridiculous. Then again you probably know how quickly people pick up on one thing they see as a flaw and make it a huge issue but then have never played the game themselves but become sudden experts. When that who thing came out I did a lot of head shaking.

Can it happen? Yes. If you are in range to move 3 or more Battlepods into Hand to Hand you are better off not moving and using the Accurate on the main guns and the Focus fire attribute to fire the secondaries for free. You have a better chance of killing the unit outright with no damage in return. The only reason to get into Hand to Hand is if you fear that on the next activation the other player has units nearby that can blow up your pods.

And wouldn't keeping your mecha in close pairs defuse the kick-line considerably by preventing it from surrounding the target with only a trio of battlepods?

Well, like I said: I stumbled into it.

I agree with Mike that shooting is superior in most instances.
Close formation makes it all the more tempting to just stand and fire.

At the time I thought melee would be fun and after having some cover shot out from under me I figured "why the heck not?... Ouch!".

I would also say it is not always a sure thing to kill a destroid in one round of fire so melee can mitigate what damage it can do (hth is less than it's shooting in most cases.

Thanks, sounds kinda like I expected. If it's something that rarely, if ever, comes up that's not so bad. From the mentions I'd heard earlier, it had sounded like a common tactic.

However, all the H-t-H moves in RRT (and the RPG) are a head-scratcher. I only recall one scene in Macross where that happens, in the fight with Breetai. I honestly don't remember any H-t-H mecha combat until Mospeada, where a good bit of the Invid had claws and such.

 Stormonu wrote:
Thanks, sounds kinda like I expected. If it's something that rarely, if ever, comes up that's not so bad. From the mentions I'd heard earlier, it had sounded like a common tactic.

However, all the H-t-H moves in RRT (and the RPG) are a head-scratcher. I only recall one scene in Macross where that happens, in the fight with Breetai. I honestly don't remember any H-t-H mecha combat until Mospeada, where a good bit of the Invid had claws and such.

there are several instances of H-T-H combat in the show, mostly between Destroids and Valkyrie and Zentraedi troopers.

My favorite is the glaug that did the windmill attack.

 Stormonu wrote:
However, all the H-t-H moves in RRT (and the RPG) are a head-scratcher. I only recall one scene in Macross where that happens, in the fight with Breetai. I honestly don't remember any H-t-H mecha combat until Mospeada, where a good bit of the Invid had claws and such.

What about when Isamu and Guld are brawling?

But, yeah, Guld eventually says "feth this" and fething shoots Isamu...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxsbpm_robotech-32-el-desengano-hd-720p_shortfilms

18:10

I mostly recall the H-t-H in the Reconstruction Blues portion of the show. That is the part i want to duplicate on table the most.

I am still hoping some one in the Maryland area is interested in playing a game. I have both UEDF and zentradei and have yet to play a game due to lack of people interested.

 n815e wrote:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxsbpm_robotech-32-el-desengano-hd-720p_shortfilms

18:10

Now how did I miss that? I had rewatched the series while I was putting my models together and I didn't remember that scene!

Okay, I'll cut the game some slack on the H-t-H then.

I seem to recall it coming up a couple of times when people reported doing some demo'ing, but that could've been tied at least in part due to the demo areas being smaller than standard.

It's hard to get away from your opponent's brutal kick line if the table itself isn't big enough to get much distance without flying off it.

This also brings up what has been one of many eternal eye rolls of the game; if HtH is so useless, why the feth is so much book and card space dedicated to it? If it's so great, it can become silly if extrapolated too highly like that.

I imagine its utility (or lack thereof) will also come down to other factors like the table itself. If there's sufficient intervening terrain to let the Pod groups get close enough to engage like that, sure, it could be messy. Big open shooting galleries, less so. Opponent has blast missiles? That could get even uglier.

Not to be 'that guy', but Mike if I'm not mistaken haven't most of your 'many games' been against yourself? Let's not pretend that playing both sides is entirely the same thing as two opponents with differing play styles/approaches. If you did find a regular opponent (of equal skill, playing soft against the kids isn't the same thing either), I cheerfully retract.

That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.

So perhaps it really was overly hyped over a 'theorycrafted' concern rather than one that is likely to end up in actual gameplay. One of those considerations that were pondered while we waited for actual info.

There's less of them these days because the community seems to be mostly non-existent and has moved on. "If a game fails in the stores, does it make a sound?" Probably not one that can be heard over the clatter of dice and shuffling of cards from the tables full of X-Wing and Magic players.

 Forar wrote:

That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.

they had prizes? first I heard of that. first I heard of PB even giving out prizes.

Asterios wrote:

 Forar wrote:

That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.

they had prizes? first I heard of that. first I heard of PB even giving out prizes.

They definitely had prizes. Don't recall the exact details but I remember the champion posting a pic of some trophies he won.

Pretty sure Adepticon had 'em too, but with only 9 or 10 participants it didn't exactly get a flurry of chatter about it.

Note: I never said they were GOOD or valuable prizes, but I do remember there being comments on some prize support in general.

 Forar wrote:
I seem to recall it coming up a couple of times when people reported doing some demo'ing, but that could've been tied at least in part due to the demo areas being smaller than standard.

It's hard to get away from your opponent's brutal kick line if the table itself isn't big enough to get much distance without flying off it.

This also brings up what has been one of many eternal eye rolls of the game; if HtH is so useless, why the feth is so much book and card space dedicated to it? If it's so great, it can become silly if extrapolated too highly like that.

I imagine its utility (or lack thereof) will also come down to other factors like the table itself. If there's sufficient intervening terrain to let the Pod groups get close enough to engage like that, sure, it could be messy. Big open shooting galleries, less so. Opponent has blast missiles? That could get even uglier.

Not to be 'that guy', but Mike if I'm not mistaken haven't most of your 'many games' been against yourself? Let's not pretend that playing both sides is entirely the same thing as two opponents with differing play styles/approaches. If you did find a regular opponent (of equal skill, playing soft against the kids isn't the same thing either), I cheerfully retract.

That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.

So perhaps it really was overly hyped over a 'theorycrafted' concern rather than one that is likely to end up in actual gameplay. One of those considerations that were pondered while we waited for actual info.

There's less of them these days because the community seems to be mostly non-existent and has moved on. "If a game fails in the stores, does it make a sound?" Probably not one that can be heard over the clatter of dice and shuffling of cards from the tables full of X-Wing and Magic players.

So you want to go off on Hand to Hand...... Seems an awfull lot of effort and concern over something so small in the game....

1. Utility.....why so many options if it is useless.
A. I never said it was useless....just very uncommon. When you have something that can do more damage shooting there are few cases or reasons to do HTH.
B. You know why there are so many options so why ask? In case you forgot I will answer though. It was directly imported from the RPG and kept that way to keep a connection to the RPG and also for the "cool" factor.
C. The game was also built by RPG players who have no idea how Minis games work or should work.
2. Games
A. I've had about 10 solo games and 4 games with other players. Only in a few times did we have any Hand to Hand because it is VERY limited by circumstances as to when it should and can be used. Most of the time it is Spartans hunting targets.

Since you jumped in......how many games have you played so far and how many kicklines have you witnessed? I've to this day only heard of ONE game where this happened and how people built it up to be an apocalyptic event.

Now in Nodal Wars those 8 options I've reduced to 4 and it makes more sense. I've also turned my back on RRT pretty much completely and stay informed for the sake of sating my love of Robotech.

"Go off"? I presented thoughts as to why the idea might have stuck in some people's head. Effort and concern? No more or less than the other pertinent details of this ongoing gakshow as I recall them (and my memory is plenty fallible).

You seem to be taking that whole post as 'calling you out', but the one point where I note you having limited experience against other people was the only segment aimed directly to you. It was a generic response to like 3 different posts, which perhaps I should've noted with @signals.

10 solo games? A single mind will not come up with the creative/unexpected responses that dedicated game testing requires. 4 games with a human opponent is a sampler. 14 games is certainly more than most of us have played, but let's not consider it some spectacular feat of expertise. The kind of data necessary to get a representative example would be hundreds, thousands, or more (across a much larger pool of people), and with your scientific background I'd have thought you'd know that. It's not a slight, it's a fact that you need a HUGE pile of data to get representative information. It doesn't mean your experiences aren't valuable, but while it's certainly more informed than pure 'theorycrafting' (which has a place), it's not like you were buried in the game. The people who attended the Open House tournament (all 12 or so of them?) probably got just as many 1 on 1 games in across a single day as you've ever played.

You're awfully defensive on the matter, and I have no idea why. Aside from the point that having limited games (especially without opponents) doesn't generate remotely the same data that multiple opponents will, it's entirely academic to me. How many games have I played? Zero. How many kicklines have I observed? Zero. That's why I referenced "theorycrafting", which as a wargamer you are most surely familiar with, but I can draw the concept out in crayon if you like. Frankly, I'm surprised the number is that low, I thought you'd gotten in far more.

My statements were what they were, and I'm not sure why you seem to huffy over it. If something is important/valuable, but people think it unfun or less than reflective of the game they were sold on, that's noteworthy. If it's not that big a deal, then why dedicate so much time/space/effort to it? We went over this a dozen times; because "PBlol" and so they could shoehorn more "RPG" into RRT, but that doesn't make it any more sensible.

Which comes around nicely to the point that it ISN'T being played, so instead of getting defensive over a non-issue, perhaps it's worth recognizing *why* people were under that impression and how it might've been done differently?

Oh, wait, you've already said you did it differently?

Then why the feth do you care if people dislike RRT's HtH system? You've already (partially?) abandoned it!

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Forar wrote:

That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.

they had prizes? first I heard of that. first I heard of PB even giving out prizes.

They definitely had prizes. Don't recall the exact details but I remember the champion posting a pic of some trophies he won.

Pretty sure Adepticon had 'em too, but with only 9 or 10 participants it didn't exactly get a flurry of chatter about it.

Note: I never said they were GOOD or valuable prizes, but I do remember there being comments on some prize support in general.

heard about some kind of trophy and/or certificate and what I had heard from their MA's was that prize support was non-existent unless the MA's foot the bill on them. (in fact they keep losing MA's because of that.)

 Forar wrote:
"Go off"? I presented thoughts as to why the idea might have stuck in some people's head. Effort and concern? No more or less than the other pertinent details of this ongoing gakshow as I recall them (and my memory is plenty fallible).

You seem to be taking that whole post as 'calling you out', but the one point where I note you having limited experience against other people was the only segment aimed directly to you. It was a generic response to like 3 different posts, which perhaps I should've noted with @signals.

10 solo games? A single mind will not come up with the creative/unexpected responses that dedicated game testing requires. 4 games with a human opponent is a sampler. 14 games is certainly more than most of us have played, but let's not consider it some spectacular feat of expertise. The kind of data necessary to get a representative example would be hundreds, thousands, or more (across a much larger pool of people), and with your scientific background I'd have thought you'd know that. It's not a slight, it's a fact that you need a HUGE pile of data to get representative information. It doesn't mean your experiences aren't valuable, but while it's certainly more informed than pure 'theorycrafting' (which has a place), it's not like you were buried in the game. The people who attended the Open House tournament (all 12 or so of them?) probably got just as many 1 on 1 games in across a single day as you've ever played.

You're awfully defensive on the matter, and I have no idea why. Aside from the point that having limited games (especially without opponents) doesn't generate remotely the same data that multiple opponents will, it's entirely academic to me. How many games have I played? Zero. How many kicklines have I observed? Zero. That's why I referenced "theorycrafting", which as a wargamer you are most surely familiar with, but I can draw the concept out in crayon if you like. Frankly, I'm surprised the number is that low, I thought you'd gotten in far more.

My statements were what they were, and I'm not sure why you seem to huffy over it. If something is important/valuable, but people think it unfun or less than reflective of the game they were sold on, that's noteworthy. If it's not that big a deal, then why dedicate so much time/space/effort to it? We went over this a dozen times; because "PBlol" and so they could shoehorn more "RPG" into RRT, but that doesn't make it any more sensible.

Which comes around nicely to the point that it ISN'T being played, so instead of getting defensive over a non-issue, perhaps it's worth recognizing *why* people were under that impression and how it might've been done differently?

Oh, wait, you've already said you did it differently?

Then why the feth do you care if people dislike RRT's HtH system? You've already (partially?) abandoned it!

Going off on something, even as a response, trying to prove that it is a problem, trying to point out people who say it is not there their experience is limited while having ZERO experience on the subject yourself? I can think of a few words for that......

Like I said, making mountains out of molehills. Regardless, I'm moving on from RRT.

*sigh*

Relating what people have shared/said, as best I can recall it, is not "going off".

If you really think it is, that says more about you than it does about me. I freely admit I may have mis-remembered something, but you're reading way more into my original response than was present.

People (in the past) said the 'kickline' was a big deal, in theory or reality. I presented reasons that might have been the case. You could have just said "man, HtH in RRT is a mess, I did it better" and dropped the mic. No need to take things so personally.

sorry, just tired of "experts" who have not even played....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and it's been a long day and my tolerance levels for just about anything are really low...

Job hunting sucks

I guess the words for it would be mikeing then
And I think we're all tired of "experts who have not even played" or as I know them Palladium Books.

Well, out of interest sake, I refuse to play with myself, so have not gone solo.
I promised myself that with chess: I hate it when I outsmart myself.

I got in 6 first time games with others (demos etc.).
Then a second game in with 2 players who took an interest.
A friend who is very patient, I got to play some 5 games with him.
So 13 games in all.

No expert by any stretch, I should discount a couple games because we house-ruled a couple things to see if it would play better (games with my friend).

The "myth" of the kickline for me was the surprise of stumbling into it thinking it would not be a big deal.
I must admit the swiftly evaporating cover surprised me more.
Never mind early-on when I started playing, Mike pointed out that Veritech's fly in all modes...

Well, there is enough frustration to go around.
PB is rather exceptional at twisting reality so "moving-on" is difficult since they keep claiming it all is OK, just have a little patience.
Lying turkeys they are.

Wasn't the kickline discovered during con demos?

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, out of interest sake, I refuse to play with myself, so have not gone solo.

I hear that if you play with your off hand, it's like you're playing against someone else.

 Talizvar wrote:

I promised myself that with chess: I hate it when I outsmart myself.

At least you'll get a 50/50 win/loss record at that point.

 Mike1975 wrote:
sorry, just tired of "experts" who have not even played....

I never played, but then again not complaining about the H-T-H kick rules either, but do see the humour of a row of pods doing the Can-Can down the street.

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
sorry, just tired of "experts" who have not even played....

I never played, but then again not complaining about the H-T-H kick rules either, but do see the humour of a row of pods doing the Can-Can down the street.

I agree the label conveys far more vivid imagery than the actual gaming tactic.
The bloody things are all legs!
Run for your lives!
Makes you want to play "Pin the garter on the pod".

Somewhere, somebody's probably made a video of those battlepods, particle cannons interlocked and dressed in Minmei dresses doing a can-can as a Ricke Hunter battleoid tries to dodge through the line without getting whacked...."It's the Protoculture Revolution!"

Someone needs to make a soccer scenario with Battlepods vs. Phalanxes, though - that'd be damn hilarious.

 Mike1975 wrote:
sorry, just tired of "experts" who have not even played....

and it's been a long day and my tolerance levels for just about anything are really low...

Job hunting sucks

I think we've all been there. No offense intended, nor taken, and I apologize if I got snarky anywhere that wasn't really necessary.

Sorry to hear about the job hunt being necessary. That's plenty stressful on its own.