Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't think they have enough IPs to license out that would generate the kind of interest that Rifts does. If all we got out of their fees from SW was four 3D models and a crummy resin/metal SDF it's going to take a miracle to complete this project in two years.

Asterios wrote:
Kevin may be stupid but he is not an idiot as too throw good money after bad, he makes wave 2 that is lost money he will never recover, which is why I can never understand why some people still think there will be a wave 2

The problem is how confident he is that he can throw that 0.098% of his resources at making the kickstarter look like it is continuing to "progress" forever.
He knows he is on the hook for refund or rewards by law but the forever-delay is the cheaper alternative as long as the AG and FTC continue to not care.

I remain curious what the statute of limitations is and how it applies.

Not in a "well I'm a dude on the internet and *I* think it's ____", like, as per actual law, when does such a statute begin, how long, etc. (shout out to Rick)

Plus the matter of whether it'd be based on Michigan law or Federal (Google seems to indicate that Michigan's SoL for many things below murder and sexual assualt and whatnot are around 6 years).

Note, before anyone (Hi Rick) goes on a tear, I'm again noting what I don't know, and was curious if a BAR CERTIFIED LAWYER might clarify that if they have an opportunity, 'cause I know we have a couple such individuals who peruse the thread now and then.

Not that I think it really matters (their glacial rate of progress makes it an academic point), but I can only imagine that if there IS one in play, that they'd be insane not to have at least considered the potential ramifications of running out the clock and providing a tearful 'mea culpa' to their adoring fans.

Or maybe they're just waiting for Brukheimer to get around to the Rifts movie so they can reap the sweet money they're most assuredly owed! (this is sarcasm, I'm aware it's been in limbo for a decade and a half. Rick.)

Asterios wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, they copy/paste their own material in the RPG books so they are at least consistent.

I feel like an idiot wondering if the Savage Worlds royalties may translate into RRT progress due to money availability.
... who am I kidding other than myself?

umm savage world royalties (if any) translate into RRT wave 2? I'll say never, Kevin needs the money to keep the lights on and to put out more RPG books, Kevin may be stupid but he is not an idiot as too throw good money after bad, he makes wave 2 that is lost money he will never recover, which is why I can never understand why some people still think there will be a wave 2

It's not money lost, it's money owed.
Wave 2 has already been paid for.

 Talizvar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Kevin may be stupid but he is not an idiot as too throw good money after bad, he makes wave 2 that is lost money he will never recover, which is why I can never understand why some people still think there will be a wave 2

The problem is how confident he is that he can throw that 0.098% of his resources at making the kickstarter look like it is continuing to "progress" forever.
He knows he is on the hook for refund or rewards by law but the forever-delay is the cheaper alternative as long as the AG and FTC continue to not care.

the AG/FTC are not saying they don't care, it is just a matter of numbers, only a dozen or so people have complained to them, they need hundreds and/or thousands to complain before they can justify doing something.

 Forar wrote:

Plus the matter of whether it'd be based on Michigan law or Federal.

anything conducted over phone, wire, mail and internet falls under Federal perview.

 n815e wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, they copy/paste their own material in the RPG books so they are at least consistent.

I feel like an idiot wondering if the Savage Worlds royalties may translate into RRT progress due to money availability.
... who am I kidding other than myself?

umm savage world royalties (if any) translate into RRT wave 2? I'll say never, Kevin needs the money to keep the lights on and to put out more RPG books, Kevin may be stupid but he is not an idiot as too throw good money after bad, he makes wave 2 that is lost money he will never recover, which is why I can never understand why some people still think there will be a wave 2

It's not money lost, it's money owed.
Wave 2 has already been paid for.

might be money owed the backers, but its money lost for Kevin which is all he cares for.

Paying a debt is not "money lost".

 n815e wrote:
Paying a debt is not "money lost".

I think the point being that for some "it is" or to be more correct: get them to acknowledge it is a debt at all.

Palladium has our money from the Kickstarter.
Unless they see some compelling evidence that the book is going to be thrown at them for not making good on that money: it is theirs.
From the fine BBB letter I got from them, they made it clear that I received far more in retail cost in product than what I put in.
Never mind that specific items promised and specifically ordered in the Backerkit are nowhere to be seen.

I truly believe that Kevin would view money spent on the RRT KS as a waste (If I was in his shoes and mindset... yep, keep em hanging).
Especially looking at all that "disappointing retail sales" cluttering up his warehouse (Make more models only to sit in stock? No way! [while blind eye to RPG books by the thousands]).
He knows any new models made would not make much of a show in retail. (their own fault for missing their own bandwagon).
I am sure the Savage Worlds KS is looked on more favorably by them in comparison.

From the fine BBB letter I got from them, they made it clear that I received far more in retail cost in product than what I put in.
Never mind that specific items promised and specifically ordered in the Backerkit are nowhere to be seen.

We all know that the contract was X amount of dollars for specific products and msrp has nothing to do with it.

The thing that I find most amazing is the "doesn't affect me" attitude of others. The guys who outright say "I don't care if Palladium stole your money, you should have known better. It's your own fault for trusting them. I'm going to keep buying their products."

Say what you want about Pinnacle being 'stand up', they know that Palladium has screwed over 5,000 customers and decided to do business with them, anyway.
If you pledged for their ks because you "love Rifts, but can't stand the rules" then congratulations, you are throwing more money at the guys that screwed you over and their new partners that couldn't care less.

Jorel, for all his hand wringing and emotional outbursts, has decided to go back to supporting his buddy Kevin.

But this is not "money lost", it's money owed. They owe us. Paying us back by fulfilling their contract is not a loss, it's an obligation.

 n815e wrote:

Jorel, for all his hand wringing and emotional outbursts, has decided to go back to supporting his buddy Kevin.

I would add "yet again" for Jorel. It's public, cyclical, and entirely predictable with him.

 n815e wrote:
Say what you want about Pinnacle being 'stand up', they know that Palladium has screwed over 5,000 customers and decided to do business with them, anyway.
If you pledged for their ks because you "love Rifts, but can't stand the rules" then congratulations, you are throwing more money at the guys that screwed you over and their new partners that couldn't care less.
Jorel, for all his hand wringing and emotional outbursts, has decided to go back to supporting his buddy Kevin.
But this is not "money lost", it's money owed. They owe us. Paying us back by fulfilling their contract is not a loss, it's an obligation.

I am there with my $1 pledge.
Since I am not buying any product, less than 1 cent may get to Palladium so that is kinda ok (maybe).

I agree that with royalties PB is getting more money to keep on scamming others for years to come.
Oh I see Pinnacle rubbing their hands together knowing that Rifts is a well loved IP but with much disliked mechanics.
Being able to suck-up to a blow-hard and to tell him his "creative genius" will go untouched is worth it for all the money you know people will spend.
It brings it home to me that Pinnacle has agreed to "partner" with PB knowing they have been giving customers the shaft for quite some time.
I expect Kevin to be very angry that someone else is getting all the money and attention while he only gets the royalty "dregs".

n815e: I have met too many people who equate the strength of "obligation" with "Will I go to jail or have my kneecaps broken?": Kevin is not losing much sleep I suspect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep.
I think I am now "That Guy" souring the buzz of Savage Realms backers...
I blame you n815e!

It has been pointed out well by the callous masses of "So? child labor will continue to be used for making our stuff so go save the world somewhere else!".
Not sure how a company taking money and not making what was agreed translated to that, but hey: people are not obliged to make sense.

I'm kinda hoping PEG does so well with this they actually offer to buy Palladium's IP off them. Then turn around and actually DO something with it. That'd garner a great guffah from me.

Wouldn't solve the RRT mess, but I don't think anything short of Kevin ending up in Federal jail would fix that for me at this point, cuz Wave 2 is NEVER, EVER going to happen.

 n815e wrote:
Paying a debt is not "money lost".

it is too Kevin, if he can make no money from it he will not do it, and he knows no money to be made from wave 2 so he will not do it.

 n815e wrote:

From the fine BBB letter I got from them, they made it clear that I received far more in retail cost in product than what I put in.
Never mind that specific items promised and specifically ordered in the Backerkit are nowhere to be seen.

We all know that the contract was X amount of dollars for specific products and msrp has nothing to do with it.

The thing that I find most amazing is the "doesn't affect me" attitude of others. The guys who outright say "I don't care if Palladium stole your money, you should have known better. It's your own fault for trusting them. I'm going to keep buying their products."

Say what you want about Pinnacle being 'stand up', they know that Palladium has screwed over 5,000 customers and decided to do business with them, anyway.
If you pledged for their ks because you "love Rifts, but can't stand the rules" then congratulations, you are throwing more money at the guys that screwed you over and their new partners that couldn't care less.

Can somewhat agree with this since what does it say about a company that can get into bed with another company they know have screwed over so many?

 Talizvar wrote:

Yep.
I think I am now "That Guy" souring the buzz of Savage Realms backers...
I blame you n815e!

Sorry!

Pinnacle seems comfortable with their decision to work with a company that has screwed over 5000 customers, and at least one RRT backer feels that it is okay to not get the remainder of his pledge because he has become a friend of Kevin's in the process. Lucky him!

Jorel is under the illusion that backing the Rifts ks is in no way supporting Palladium.

Wow yeah.
People "sick" of hearing about RRT on the SWR kickstarter.
Couple fellows happy to say that yeah, they got ripped off but that made them get MORE involved with Palladium and they have a blast...
I NEED to find friends like this, WHERE do you find people like this?

Plus Jorel is there... quite the character... like he was apologizing to me for not trolling.
I will take my version of "being difficult" over his so it is all OK.

So, no update since April 14th.
Palladium Website still has this from Apr 29th:
"As we said in the last update, we are gearing up for more Robotech® RPG Tactics™, starting with material that will be made available on DriveThruRPG.com. Meanwhile, we are supporting all kinds of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ events at StrategiCon. More on that in the next update."
Really looking like RRT is talked about on it's own (if at all) and less "kickstarter" or "wave 2".

I have dealt with "phaze" while trying to help vet the conventional rules as well as errata and the faq. Hevus nothing more than a yes man who tows the company line he is given so he can be "on the inside" nothing more.

jaymz wrote:
I have dealt with "phaze" while trying to help vet the conventional rules as well as errata and the faq. Hevus nothing more than a yes man who tows the company line he is given so he can be "on the inside" nothing more.

I am a bit more... direct online than I am in real life but I got the impression it was all Rainbows and Unicorns for that one.
His trying to smooth out all the issues and make it all OK was a bit of a reality disconnect.

As soon as he said he actually talked to Kevin I was thinking "I am sure you told Kevin "he failed" to his face".
I know EXACTLY how that would have ended.

You are alive! Got to talk to you more, Anime North is coming up and would not want to miss meeting you.

Yes I am alive lol.

Just refraining from palladium related things that are not my one facebook group/proboard.

 Talizvar wrote:
Wow yeah.
People "sick" of hearing about RRT on the SWR kickstarter.
Couple fellows happy to say that yeah, they got ripped off but that made them get MORE involved with Palladium and they have a blast...
I NEED to find friends like this, WHERE do you find people like this?

Gamers can be real scumbags unfortunately. They'll trample the eldery and infirm to get a stupid tiny ribbon for their badge and steal from their fellow players when they think they can get away with it and that is just my 10 years of gencon experience talking. They'll also unsurprisingly support equally scumbag companies instead sticking with their fellow gamers that got screwed over by the same company as long as they can eek out a tiny benefit for themselves. I thought about joining the rifts rpg KS to comment but last month largely stepped away from the discussion of various games I'm unhappy with. Sadly, my post count dropped significantly when I tried to cut back on negativity.

 warboss wrote:
Gamers can be real scumbags unfortunately.

I can say from my own (I hope distant) past behavior that is true.

They'll trample the eldery and infirm to get a stupid tiny ribbon for their badge and steal from their fellow players when they think they can get away with it and that is just my 10 years of gencon experience talking.

I have found the elderly and infirm do not game enough to be worthy of consideration and put themselves in harms way attending those venues.

They'll also unsurprisingly support equally scumbag companies instead sticking with their fellow gamers that got screwed over by the same company as long as they can eek out a tiny benefit for themselves.

Well, life is a game so if it did not work out: they are losers and should be ridiculed so they make better choices.

I thought about joining the rifts rpg KS to comment but last month largely stepped away from the discussion of various games I'm unhappy with. Sadly, my post count dropped significantly when I tried to cut back on negativity.

Let the anger flow, why hold back and deprive others of laughing at your pain?

Ooops was channeling my inner 14 year old from wayyyyy back.

In all seriousness, gaming is a form of self gratification so it already has an element of selfishness to it: not much of a stretch to be rather mercenary in your purchases.
I did find in the past a certain impatience of needing the latest of a certain game or genre which can promote some antisocial behavior.
It was rather unsurprising to have those telling me to basically shut up because I am ruining their excitement... a rather nasty piece of work in the back of my mind was thinking "that is entirely the point."... I don't let him out much unless Palladium is mentioned.

In the end, getting a game in with people who can behave themselves becomes more the focus I find than the trappings.

@Warboss: BTW I should not make light of your attempting to be less negative, it is a worthwhile thing: it is our hobby after all, finding the joy is entirely the point.

eh, they'll figure it out when it's six months later and there's no sign of the SW Rifts products (because they're "waiting" on last minute approvals from Uncle Kev).

Also, as slowly as the KS seems to be growing after the initial burst, I think that first blast of money was pre-planned - either investment by one of the two companies involved, or some retailers/distributors.

Warboss, it isn't just gamers. I firmly believe you are describing people in general at this point.

And to the dude posting a million pics of one game, I still don't believe you have played 100s of RRT games and you are by no means an established authority regardless. You have no idea if the kickline is happening on a regular basis in the two or three other households outside of your circle that are playing this game.

 Stormonu wrote:
eh, they'll figure it out when it's six months later and there's no sign of the SW Rifts products (because they're "waiting" on last minute approvals from Uncle Kev).

Also, as slowly as the KS seems to be growing after the initial burst, I think that first blast of money was pre-planned - either investment by one of the two companies involved, or some retailers/distributors.

Nah, I don't really think so. I expect the three books of the KS to be out fast, and given it's Pinnacle they were probably approved already since before the KS opened. The SG, though? Well, that may be another whole story. I'd expect to see delays there somewhere.

As to the initial growth, I suspect that we can just chalk it up to people interested in it knowing about the release date. Certainly Pinnacle advertised it a whole lot, and even did a whole week of "countdown towards announcement" on their page, with a progressively revealed banner with Rifts characters.

Almost every Kickstarter I've been a part of has followed one of two paths;

A long gradual climb, or a U of sorts, with the initial spike of backers who knew the campaign was coming trailed off after a few days, and another surge at the end as the "48 hours remaining" emails go out.

Given that this isn't PEG's first campaign, and given that they and PB have been advertising it in the lead up to launch, I'm not at all surprised by how things have gone.

Okay, a bit surprised so many people are willing to give a "Palladium Adjacent Company" as much money as they are, but that's their prerogative (with fair warning and all).

That said, the people in the KS comments with stars in their eyes about this being a 2-3 million dollar project really need to learn how to use Kicktraq responsibly. I can totally see it breaking 300k, maybe even spiking to 400 or 500k if the tail end has a pile of people choosing to get off the fence.

But this doesn't seem to be a 1m project, let alone 2 or 3.

People is just expecting it to do that well because of 7th Sea. Basically, because they believe Rifts to be a much stronger IP than 7th.

What they probably don't realize is that Rifts is basically a North America-only IP, whereas a whole lot of people here in Europe had fond 7th Sea memories. Personally, I believe they don't have a chance in hell of going that high. Nor they need to, tbh.

Not just Rifts having primarily NA appeal, but their shipping system is bonkers. I've had Dwarven Forge ship me a 30 pound box of terrain that took up a couple cubic feet of space for less than they want to charge to ship outside of the US.

Looks like 80% of their backers are in the US. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Yes, I'm aware, shipping across our shared border is expensive because *reasons*, and always goes up, and next year will require a kidney and a cut of my will to send something to Detroit.

Edit: also, at a glance, 7th sea had like 500-600+ backers that contributed half a grand or more apiece, with some of them getting up to or over 2.5k.

I somehow doubt even PB's notoriously rabid die-hard fans are willing to go quite that high with the biggest tier being $240. There's only so much room to pad things out with add ons from PEG, and why bother adding for PB add ons when they can be bought from the store right now?

 Stormonu wrote:
eh, they'll figure it out when it's six months later and there's no sign of the SW Rifts products (because they're "waiting" on last minute approvals from Uncle Kev).

I honestly think what has been initially promised will go OK.
It all looks like a win-win at this time and Kevin likes nothing better than money coming in with little effort.

I could see Kevin deciding for some reason to not let another Rifts conversion happen of one of his books.
Jealousy of sales, Pinnacle getting the attention, feeling his stuff should be selling... any number of "reasons" and that is where it all may come to a halt.

Place your bets.
I am hoping it will not be an "I told you so" moment and no-one wants to hear it anyway.

I'm already surprised Kevin approved this tagline:

The gonzo Megaversal adventure of Rifts® teams up with the genre-spanning easy-prep award-winning Savage Worlds system!

Maybe the royalty payments are that good?

 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe the royalty payments are that good?

I am waiting to see when Kevin figures out all this excitement is only by replacing the engine of the RPG.
Something they had every chance to address.
It looks like some new faction / jump-off material was made as well which I think Palladium had not authored.
...
...
...
Kev will need to put his finger in it... will just be a matter of when.

Should we set up a seperate thread to discuss SW Rifts? I'm personally hesitant to because I have no desire to give PB any sort of avenue to suck in more victims.

 Stormonu wrote:
Should we set up a separate thread to discuss SW Rifts? I'm personally hesitant to because I have no desire to give PB any sort of avenue to suck in more victims.

That's a really good idea.

I'm sure something going on there (the proposed separate thread for the RIFTS SW KS) will affect things here, it does make sense to talk about it elsewhere...