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So I bought a starter set off of ebay the other day and I remember you guys saying the sprue construction was hard to get the together. Well wow, now I see. There are sooooo many unnecessary break ups for the pieces its ridiculous. I felt like Maclomb Reynolds in the movie serenity when he saw the hub to launch the video to the rest of the galaxy when he said "hard to get to". I feel confident I can make them look ok but I keep wondering to myself why they broke up certain pieces for a starter.

I don't think conventional wargaming circles are going to ever express much interest in playing the game. There are too many issues with the models, rules, and the company selling it. That said I think if you branch out a bit you can probably find robotech fans in off the wall places that would give the game a go.

While they are not difficult to build as I have built minis harder than that, that being said there are a lot of unnecessary parts for sure. There are also parts that are so thin they break very easily (im looking at you recon pod).

It's a nuanced part of the critique.

Are there worse? Yes. But are these obnoxious in ways they didn't need to be? Also yes. Are the rules the worst thing ever written? No. Are they great? I wouldn't say so, but my experience is limited. Are PB the worst company in the world? No. Are they faffing about for years and undermining *any* confidence in them doing anything to officially support this game beyond that which their fans will do for them and that they're essentially cornered into doing? Also no.

Was there a market for this product line in 2013? Obviously! Is it as strong in 2016? Not at all. Will it be even smaller in 2017-2020-WhenTheSunGoesNova? Probably not.

It's wasted potential. If they'd been remotely realistic about their production times (and yes, this requires believing they were full of gak or didn't do their homework around launch time), if they'd shown more respect for the community by actually being honest about where things were and what they were doing to fix them, maybe something could be salvaged.

They didn't need to be The Biggest Thing To Hit Gaming Of Our Lifetime, there are viable niches in gaming all over the place, where a steady release schedule and moderate support can translate into a comfortable profit margin.

But "wave 1 in 2014, wave 2 maybe 3 or 4 or 10 years later" isn't going to drive interest, and if they'd done their research leading up to the campaign, or paid attention over the past few years, they'd know that.

 Forar wrote:
But "wave 1 in 2014, wave 2 maybe 3 or 4 or 10 years later" isn't going to drive interest, and if they'd done their research leading up to the campaign, or paid attention over the past few years, they'd know that.

I suspect from day one the horse and the cart never matched; One stakeholder wants to create a miniature wargame, another wants to create a RPG supplement (or was forced to by licensing). The two types of products have different product release strategies and lead times due to a different customer base and expectations -- and let's be honest here, even at its best, PB's RPG product release strategy is more of "over-promise, under-deliver", at least in terms of time-to-market.

What I perceive is a lot of misunderstanding of product positioning by the various stakeholders. When the wargaming stakeholder withdrew -- either as planned or as part of a disagreement isn't relevant -- PB is left holding a ball that they don't know how to handle, and more importantly, is only really half-hearted at learning how to handle. The results are inevitably going to be bad, and their poor PR skills made it a train wreck that we just can't stop watching.

The background fluff is epic enough, the designs interesting enough, the rules can be improved enough... but the failure of the manufacturer to work the necessary enough is nail enough in the coffin.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Forar wrote:
But "wave 1 in 2014, wave 2 maybe 3 or 4 or 10 years later" isn't going to drive interest, and if they'd done their research leading up to the campaign, or paid attention over the past few years, they'd know that.

I suspect from day one the horse and the cart never matched; One stakeholder wants to create a miniature wargame, another wants to create a RPG supplement (or was forced to by licensing). The two types of products have different product release strategies and lead times due to a different customer base and expectations -- and let's be honest here, even at its best, PB's RPG product release strategy is more of "over-promise, under-deliver", at least in terms of time-to-market.

What I perceive is a lot of misunderstanding of product positioning by the various stakeholders. When the wargaming stakeholder withdrew -- either as planned or as part of a disagreement isn't relevant -- PB is left holding a ball that they don't know how to handle, and more importantly, is only really half-hearted at learning how to handle. The results are inevitably going to be bad, and their poor PR skills made it a train wreck that we just can't stop watching.

The background fluff is epic enough, the designs interesting enough, the rules can be improved enough... but the failure of the manufacturer to work the necessary enough is nail enough in the coffin.

Like I said before a long time ago, PB came into this treating it like another RPG product not realizing RPG's and miniature games and gamers are two wholly different breeds, what may fly for RPG players will not fly with Miniature players and will quickly kill a game.

Asterios wrote:
Like I said before a long time ago, PB came into this treating it like another RPG product not realizing RPG's and miniature games and gamers are two wholly different breeds, what may fly for RPG players will not fly with Miniature players and will quickly kill a game.

That's not even half of it.

If PB wanted to treat this like a RPG product, they could have gone with single pose minis just to represent the mecha, possibly with some variants to keep it looking fresh on the table. DDM went that route and was successful; Pathfinder, to my understanding, went that route and has at least limited success that I am aware of. Dust, as a table-top game went that route and can still be considered successful. They could have simplified things with a hex/ grid map and kept it in line with other RPG miniatures products.

Instead they tunnel-visioned into a HIPS, multi-part models which even experienced companies can get wrong, complete with a complex rule set and a tabletop terrain choice that ensured a dearth of RPG support products to compliment the rollout.

Even treating RRT as a RPG product shows up deficiencies in their understanding of the RPG miniature users, which I think it's safe to say is a complementary part of their core customers. They couldn't even get the product right for at least a segment of their core customers. I'm not even sure I can say PB understands their own core customers, or is a relevant force in their core business any more.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Like I said before a long time ago, PB came into this treating it like another RPG product not realizing RPG's and miniature games and gamers are two wholly different breeds, what may fly for RPG players will not fly with Miniature players and will quickly kill a game.

That's not even half of it.

If PB wanted to treat this like a RPG product, they could have gone with single pose minis just to represent the mecha, possibly with some variants to keep it looking fresh on the table. DDM went that route and was successful; Pathfinder, to my understanding, went that route and has at least limited success that I am aware of. Dust, as a table-top game went that route and can still be considered successful. They could have simplified things with a hex/ grid map and kept it in line with other RPG miniatures products.

Instead they tunnel-visioned into a HIPS, multi-part models which even experienced companies can get wrong, complete with a complex rule set and a tabletop terrain choice that ensured a dearth of RPG support products to compliment the rollout.

Even treating RRT as a RPG product shows up deficiencies in their understanding of the RPG miniature users, which I think it's safe to say is a complementary part of their core customers. They couldn't even get the product right for at least a segment of their core customers. I'm not even sure I can say PB understands their own core customers, or is a relevant force in their core business any more.

oh they probably knew that, the problem is one piece minis is like 2-3 times more expensive on the molds then the gak they went with.

Asterios wrote:
Like I said before a long time ago, PB came into this treating it like another RPG product not realizing RPG's and miniature games and gamers are two wholly different breeds, what may fly for RPG players will not fly with Miniature players and will quickly kill a game.

Most likely they figure one fan-boy is pretty much like any other.

To address difficulty on getting in games due to PB dropping the ball: I never really considered their future support in the mix.
I was expecting what was promised to get done but nothing beyond that.
Looking back now, it seems almost "unreasonable" those expectations as simple as they are.

I collect as many factions as I can in a game so that I am not dependent on another player to bring anything.
Most of my friends are gaming fiends and have no real strong allegiance to a given game.
As long as I am willing to record house rules to deal with any "broken" elements they are game for playing it more anytime.

I like building the models when I have no timeline to meet and look: no company supported tournaments or games so my schedule is WIDE open.
I am truly sorry Asterios that all that building you did was like ashes... I cannot help feeling it does not have to be that way.
Don't force me into finding out where you live to get a game in!

<edit> Heck going to Chili to harass Nesbit is looking good...

 Talizvar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Like I said before a long time ago, PB came into this treating it like another RPG product not realizing RPG's and miniature games and gamers are two wholly different breeds, what may fly for RPG players will not fly with Miniature players and will quickly kill a game.

Most likely they figure one fan-boy is pretty much like any other.

To address difficulty on getting in games due to PB dropping the ball: I never really considered their future support in the mix.
I was expecting what was promised to get done but nothing beyond that.
Looking back now, it seems almost "unreasonable" those expectations as simple as they are.

I collect as many factions as I can in a game so that I am not dependent on another player to bring anything.
Most of my friends are gaming fiends and have no real strong allegiance to a given game.
As long as I am willing to record house rules to deal with any "broken" elements they are game for playing it more anytime.

I like building the models when I have no timeline to meet and look: no company supported tournaments or games so my schedule is WIDE open.
I am truly sorry Asterios that all that building you did was like ashes... I cannot help feeling it does not have to be that way.
Don't force me into finding out where you live to get a game in!

<edit> Heck going to Chili to harass Nesbit is looking good...

thing of it is i'm in Central California where there is a decent size miniatures gaming crowd that is usually up for trying any miniature games, but the way this game was designed scared away all of them it seems.

Talizvar wrote:To address difficulty on getting in games due to PB dropping the ball: I never really considered their future support in the mix.
I was expecting what was promised to get done but nothing beyond that.
Looking back now, it seems almost "unreasonable" those expectations as simple as they are.

Similar here. I got into this mainly to get Battletech minis to game with and I got mostly what I wanted. What with the Reseen coming back in, it actually made that less important nowadays, but with most of the Destroids out in Wave 1, I got most of what I need.

But a promise is a promise, and I expect PB to make an effort to deliver the remaining. They have not demonstrated sufficient effort to date, IMO.

Asterios wrote:thing of it is i'm in Central California where there is a decent size miniatures gaming crowd that is usually up for trying any miniature games, but the way this game was designed scared away all of them it seems.

It's not surprising. Game rules come and go, the real thing about miniature gaming longevity is manufacturer support. As long as there are products released to support a line, there is hope that newcomers can continue to make a game playable in the long run. Non-support from a manufacturer means nothing new to entice players to continue to support, and is a death spiral. PB's approach is the worst of both worlds: a zombie spiral that doesn't quite dies, but never quite get alive either.

I know the deal on "Unseen" but is there some explanation of what the "Reseen" bit is?

 Lynx7725 wrote:
It's not surprising. Game rules come and go, the real thing about miniature gaming longevity is manufacturer support. As long as there are products released to support a line, there is hope that newcomers can continue to make a game playable in the long run. Non-support from a manufacturer means nothing new to entice players to continue to support, and is a death spiral. PB's approach is the worst of both worlds: a zombie spiral that doesn't quite dies, but never quite get alive either.

And that's the reason for GW's longevity. The pricing, and the rules set, aren't great. But the consistent promotion and a reasonable release schedule, have allowed the gaming community to reach a self-perpetuating critical mass. You can go into any gamestore on the planet, and there's a better than even chance you'll be able to find an opponent, either ready at that moment, or to schedule with.

Wyrd and Privateer aren't at that level yet, but they support those gaming communities actively, and are rewarded accordingly.

And PB bleats once a week about "Soon, maybe", and how people need to have faith. No, faith needs to be backed up by good works. I find it funny about all the plans, for the next two generations, plus potentially more going forward. And while I doubt Wave 2 will ever be finished (but leave some room to be mistaken), I would be heavily that'd be the end of the project. Palladium haven't just hit a stumbling block out of the gate, they're going "hell with it" and repeatedly backing up over the stumbling block. The game could have survived Spartangate. The game could have survived the Core being 9 months late. But their handling of Wave 2? That's what has killed any chance the game had of a future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Merijeek wrote:
I know the deal on "Unseen" but is there some explanation of what the "Reseen" bit is?

Reseen means that most of the models (I think several are still offlimits) have been returned to the Battletech Universe. Rifleman, Marauder, Warhammer especially.

I think the Dougram stuff (Locust, S-Hawk, Scorpion and Goliath?) are still Unseen. Could be wrong about any and all of that sentence.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Merijeek wrote:
I know the deal on "Unseen" but is there some explanation of what the "Reseen" bit is?

Reseen means that most of the models (I think several are still offlimits) have been returned to the Battletech Universe. Rifleman, Marauder, Warhammer especially.

I think the Dougram stuff (Locust, S-Hawk, Scorpion and Goliath?) are still Unseen. Could be wrong about any and all of that sentence.

I assume the Griffon would also go on that second list.

So, are the Valkyrie-based things now Reseen, or are they Unseen?

Merijeek wrote:
I know the deal on "Unseen" but is there some explanation of what the "Reseen" bit is?

Old Battletech history, basically ^_^. Here you can get an overview of it all:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen#Reseen

The part most relevant to your question:

Reseen[edit]

Coined after the term Unseen, the term Reseen is used to describe artwork that is legal to use though it does depict what would normally be an Unseen design. Like with the Unseen, there are several distinct types of Reseen art:
In 2003, Technical Readout: Project Phoenix was published with upgrades and newer versions for most of the Unseen 'Mechs, as of the in-game year 3067. Dubbed "Reseen", these evolutions were sufficiently visually different from their parent designs that they could be depicted. Technical Readout: 3055 Upgrade continued with Phoenix upgrades for the remaining "Unseen" 'Mechs, and the "Reseen" Samurai aerospace fighter first appeared in AeroTech 2 Revised Edition and then in Technical Readout: 3039.
To wit, the Reseen did not replace the Unseen variants or retcon them out. They are new, additional designs with new art that appeared later on in the in-universe timeline, meant to gradually replace the Unseen as the timeline progresses.
The term "Reseen" is also applied to designs that were considered Unseen at one point, but were taken off the list again for one reason or another.
Finally, the new designs that retroactively replaced the old Unseen from 2015 onwards have also been referred to as Reseen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Merijeek wrote:
So, are the Valkyrie-based things now Reseen, or are they Unseen?

IIRC, everything is reseen nowadays, as Catalyst have released new versions of all the old models, and is also doing a redesign of the originals, supposedly for the upcoming Alpha Strike starter set.

Reseen, I believe. In Battletech, they are known as LAMs (Land-Air Mechs).

 Stormonu wrote:
Reseen, I believe. In Battletech, they are known as LAMs (Land-Air Mechs).

Well, for the transforming variants anyways (Wasp, Stinger and P-Hawk LAMs). Fasa used the Valks for the regular Wasp, Stinger and Phoenix Hawk, of course, but also for the Valkyrie and the Crusader.

*Snip* very strange double post

Mwo also redid a number of the "unseen" and at least to me they look REALLY good.

jaymz wrote:
Mwo also redid a number of the "unseen" and at least to me they look REALLY good.

In general they look fantastic, and have reached an agreement with Harebrained Schemes to let them use the models for their new Battletech tactical computer game.

Morgan Vening wrote:
And PB bleats once a week about "Soon, maybe", and how people need to have faith. No, faith needs to be backed up by good works.

Not at all. Religion requires faith that cannot be backed up, and that is what we are looking at. Anyone who still believes PB will deliver wave 2, or any solid information on it, "Soon"(tm)(c)(r) has become an acolyte of theirs.

Personally, I don't believe anything further will come out of them in regards to this [possibly with the exception of using other sources of funding to pay for what is missing.] and it deserves to serve as a warning to any future 'investors' or customers of theirs. If it's not already available, don't believe that it will be.

Personally, I have reached the point that if PB were to receive additional funds to produce Wave 2, they'd spend it on something else instead.

In other words, I've pretty much consigned myself we'll never see Wave 2, and I feel helpless that we'd ever be able to get PB to admit that as KS seems willing to accept their once-every-three-months-we're-doing-something lies.

 Conrad Turner wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
And PB bleats once a week about "Soon, maybe", and how people need to have faith. No, faith needs to be backed up by good works.

Not at all. Religion requires faith that cannot be backed up, and that is what we are looking at. Anyone who still believes PB will deliver wave 2, or any solid information on it, "Soon"(tm)(c)(r) has become an acolyte of theirs.

Personally, I don't believe anything further will come out of them in regards to this [possibly with the exception of using other sources of funding to pay for what is missing.] and it deserves to serve as a warning to any future 'investors' or customers of theirs. If it's not already available, don't believe that it will be.

I'd say Faith is the belief in the unseen. Farmers grow crops having faith that they will grow. Do they always? Storms and droughts happen. We go to bed having faith that we will wake up the next day. We might not. As far as PB, that faith has long gone and worn away since they have not shown any results. Faith is simply the backing of knowledge with experience. If you do something once and get a positive result you will do it again. Like sports players and their lucky socks or shirts. To others that is just stupid superstition. If that guys wins 1000 games without a loss, I'd say their might be something special to those socks. Do I think that is ever going to happen? No.

People like to discount religion the same way because it does not fit what they think people should believe so they belittle them and discount them as just superstitious.

The Shamans of PB have long failed to yield anything but empty promises but the seers and soothsayers hang on since they still desire crumbs from the Pharaoh's (PB's) table.

Something I keep in mind when dealing with liars and cheaters.
I think this is why Ninja Division is not completely off the hook with me: I am sure they could have done more to have made this situation better PB or not.

 Talizvar wrote:

I think this is why Ninja Division is not completely off the hook with me: I am sure they could have done more to have made this situation better PB or not.

ND may have some blame for the gak we got, but wave 2 is all on PB and no one else.

Morgan Vening wrote:
And that's the reason for GW's longevity. The pricing, and the rules set, aren't great. But the consistent promotion and a reasonable release schedule, have allowed the gaming community to reach a self-perpetuating critical mass. You can go into any gamestore on the planet, and there's a better than even chance you'll be able to find an opponent, either ready at that moment, or to schedule with.

Wyrd and Privateer aren't at that level yet, but they support those gaming communities actively, and are rewarded accordingly.

The wargaming products are not known locally as plastic crack for no good reason; any line need to keep rolling out new stuff to keep the addicts happy. This continual churn is important, and as a general look at wargaming KS, many end up being a one-hit wonder which doesn't pan out in the long run. However, several companies are starting to get it "right", as it might be; Dwarven Forge has ran multiple KS that help them get product into production runs, Zombicide I believe is similar. DP9 has indicated it intends to go that route with a second KS planned. In a sense, the industry is getting to grips with how to integrate KS into the traditional distribution channels, which had been a sore point.

In hindsight, RRT could have -- and I believe was intended to -- ran similarly, with SC and TNG running separate KS to reach production. However, the bungling of the Macross portion basically made it very difficult. It's not impossible to relaunch RRT as a tabletop game with a veneer of RPG expansion in order to get by the licensing, but picking up such a solid bad rep for company support means it's an uphill battle that PB has sort of already proven they don't quite know how to fight.

Morgan Vening wrote:
And PB bleats once a week about "Soon, maybe", and how people need to have faith. No, faith needs to be backed up by good works. I find it funny about all the plans, for the next two generations, plus potentially more going forward. And while I doubt Wave 2 will ever be finished (but leave some room to be mistaken), I would be heavily that'd be the end of the project. Palladium haven't just hit a stumbling block out of the gate, they're going "hell with it" and repeatedly backing up over the stumbling block. The game could have survived Spartangate. The game could have survived the Core being 9 months late. But their handling of Wave 2? That's what has killed any chance the game had of a future.

People don't talk much about it, but part of GW's success is also because it has a huge logistical tail to help push that much crack out the door -- ironic since we are talking about wargaming, and one lesson of modern war is the importance of logistics, but I disgress...

If we look at any of the really successful wargaming companies, we'd inevitably find a big logistical team behind them helping to push the products out on a global level. The complexity of rolling out multiple SKU on a global scale is way, way different from the traditional book channels that PB are familiar with -- and the bungling of the Core is a big sign.

There are signs that PB is learning, since they are actually talking to UPS about doing logistics... but the problem I see is that PB had and failed to deal with the logistics problems of Wave 1, failed to take advantage of Wave 1 to generate enough interest and hence volume, and now they are trying to sign a contract to deliver a volume that might entirely be imaginary. Logistics need to deal with realistic estimates of volume but my confidence in PB's ability to predict demand is not the greatest.

And Core delays, SpartanGate... yes, the line could have easily survived such gaffes. Products are delayed all the time in this industry, I share an inside joke with my LGS about FFG being on FFG time with regards to their international orders, and similarly, Catty labs releasing Btech products when they damn well feel like it. These things do happen and a good PR team is essential to managing things... something PB obviously lacks as I look forward to yet another meaningless Friday update.

And bad products, heck every company has them. GW had them, PP had them.. Spartan's problem isn't even particularly catastrophic, it was the ineptness of the entire situation that broke the camel and made it worse than it actually is.

Issue is, PB knew about a lot of this stuff and how to make it work, problem is PB neither had the money nor the inclination to do what was needed to make the game go, now they are just dragging it on so backers will lose interest and PB can party with all the free money they got, face it backers just made a donation to PB filled with empty promises from PB.

Oh yes, the PBW(N)U.

I unsubscribed a ways back. For all it was saying, all it was doing was adding more dross to my junk folder.

I will give them their due, however. From the point I asked, I've heard nothing more on that route.

Well, I am pretty much at the stage now that PB is dead to me.
I want / need nothing else from them and they can happily coast along until they run out of fumes. I wish I can say "not a penny more" but I may have to drop a dollar each time they try a kickstarter.

They still require a bag of burning goose-poop on their doorstep but that can wait for another time.

 Talizvar wrote:
Something I keep in mind when dealing with liars and cheaters.
I think this is why Ninja Division is not completely off the hook with me: I am sure they could have done more to have made this situation better PB or not.

I think of it in terms of lost revenue.
I spent around a thousand dollars on this.
A thousand dollars is a lot of money, for sure.

It's a fraction of what I would have spent if they had treated this right.

So if they think that they got some big score with taking 1.5 million dollars, then they are fools for not seeing they could have made many times more.

What is 1.5 million to PB's budget? Perhaps two years of costs, probably less? Not much of a big take, is it?