Robotech® RPG Tactics™-License lost, the end is near!

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**Conrad Turner**

Yes, but the fact still remains that any proof that PB used Rifts money to make progress on RRT, is enough malfeasance on it's own, but they would also be under legal scrutiny for RRT as well once that had got out. They would then be forced to legally account for every cent spent, or declare the project failed and refund us all - probably both.

And the point was that IF they use rifts money for RRT, it can't possibly finish RRT, so there would definitely be an extra dead project. If they do the proper thing and ring-fence the money, as they say they have done up to now, then they can hold on to the chance that Rifts will be a success [even if only in their minds.]

**Talizvar**

n815e wrote:
I would rather see PB go out of business than to continue to rip off customers.

Amen!

**warboss**

Palladium wouldn't be "forced" to do anything without a lawsuit and it simply isn't worth it for backers to initiate that given the average pledge. Spending $10,000+ to recoup $200 on average isn't a win for most folks. Palladium has definitively shown that they're completely willing to weather scathing criticism of their incompetence and dishonesty if it means they get to keep the what is left of the money after they squander large parts of it.

**Forar**

I mean, that's a nice dream and all, but so far AG's and everyone else we've contacted apparently doesn't give a feth.

Using dollars from Rifts to help finish this off would be charmingly quaint in comparison, plus if they were to double up it might not be so easy as pointing to a bill marked "RRT Stuff: Paid With Rift KS Funds, MWAHAHAHAHA".

Use a larger amount of stuff to get a better deal on shipping, or a better price on molds, or figures, or the production run, or whatever. IF they were to proceed with a mixed order, the line where one price begins and another ends and exactly what funds were used for what, especially when discounts might be present.

Usual caveats in play.

**Genoside07**

I think they will be in "we are working on it" until HG pulls the licence or Kevin Dies.. The money we now "donated" was enough to cover the cost of the project, but when it is used
for other things, like other production.. paying bills way over due.. then it starts the game of robbing Peter to pay Paul. If the money wasn't enough and he was clueless at the process
and under priced everything.. how is that our problem? That is just poor management skills and no matter what the business will always end the same.

**Asterios**

warboss wrote:
Palladium wouldn't be "forced" to do anything without a lawsuit and it simply isn't worth it for backers to initiate that given the average pledge. Spending $10,000+ to recoup $200 on average isn't a win for most folks. Palladium has definitively shown that they're completely willing to weather scathing criticism of their incompetence and dishonesty if it means they get to keep the what is left of the money after they squander large parts of it.

thats why I told peeps they need to get about a thousand backers and all put in about $10-20 for a class action suit against PB. not much per backer but a large amount overall.

**Talizvar**

Genoside07 wrote:
If the money wasn't enough and he was clueless at the process and under priced everything.. how is that our problem?

That is why he is passing the lack of money onto you!
Why try to deal with your own problems like an adult when you can wait until your customers can donate/"buy"/fund/throw more money your way and then continue with whatever is the next most pressing financial matter.

That is just poor management skills and no matter what the business will always end the same.

Yes, poor management that is accustomed to consumer "patience" and/or handouts.
The money is spent by management (Kevin) as he sees fit and nothing really has dissuaded them from doing otherwise.
I like how they are accustomed to calling their customers "fan-friends" neither name I would consider to be a part of.
It seems to convey a level of trust that they are completely unworthy of.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
thats why I told peeps they need to get about a thousand backers and all put in about $10-20 for a class action suit against PB. not much per backer but a large amount overall.

Yep and still some person needs to take some time and steer that little matter in a direction to legally challenge PB.
Many would still consider it throwing good money after bad.
As stated, there is the vocal few and the rest you can feel the apathy flow...

**Forar**

There are over 5000 backers.

The 'backers planning a lawsuit' group has 100.

Given how few people chatted with any regularity, and then adding a substantial number to account for regular/irregular lurkers, it has always been unrealistic to get '1000' backers behind anything, simply for lack of communication opportunities.

That's the stopping point. And the problem referenced here and on the comments; people don't care. They've tossed their stuff in a closet, or thrown it out entirely, or sold it, or whatever, they don't care enough to check in regularly (especially with how toxic the comments have been for years). No such effort would get 100% turnout, and the couple dozen of us regulars plus some lurkers isn't 1000+ by any stretch of the imagination. The big gencon vote got, what, 20 or 30% of the backers voting, and that was a clusterfeth of their own making with repeated updates reaching out to every backer.

But I seem to recall some efforts to demand that Kickstarter provide contact information, lest they be in breach of such and such law and subject to some End Of Days style penalties or something.

Whatever happened to that?

Also, I recall there being talk about not needing other backers, that some legal attack dog was going to tear PB apart and how the rest of us plebes would be lucky to get some leftover scraps when it was done. Obviously that story has changed dramatically, but I'm still disappointed that the Mighty Legal Tsunami was just a thin puddle that evaporated before our very eyes.

**Talizvar**

Like many things with RRT I have learned to let much go.
The Legal Tsunami was one of them but now that it is mentioned...
Well, there is always Anime North for next year so I can go to their booth and mention just how irrelevant they are and are doing a FANTASTIC job at it, with each passing year.

Well, a stuck clock can be correct twice in one day, I am sure they will "surprise" us occasionally, it may not be what we want, but surprise all the same.

**Forar**

If anyone is going to Gencon next year, we should do a brief meet and greet. Grab a pint (or water/pop/whatever for those so inclined) and reminisce over this long, strange journey.

**warboss**

What about a solemn and silent group finger wag and accusatory stinkeye as you walk by the palladium booth to the pub dressed wearing Robotech t-shirts/paraphernalia?

**Genoside07**

How about paying the booth across from them and put a large print out billboard of the current kickstarter time line.. (how many days since update...etc)
I am sure Palladium would complain to their buddies on the Gen Con staff that it bothers them and need to take it down..

But I would put a Las Vegas bet down the we will still be at the "we are working on it" and "still waiting on quotes" at Gen Con ..

**Asterios**

Talizvar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
thats why I told peeps they need to get about a thousand backers and all put in about $10-20 for a class action suit against PB. not much per backer but a large amount overall.
Yep and still some person needs to take some time and steer that little matter in a direction to legally challenge PB.
Many would still consider it throwing good money after bad.
As stated, there is the vocal few and the rest you can feel the apathy flow...

well it will have to be somebody else leading the charge since I cannot.

**n815e**

Which lawyer did you use, Rick?

**Talizvar**

Asterios wrote:
well it will have to be somebody else leading the charge since I cannot.

I was not inferring you should.
You seemed to be rather clear you would not / should not / shall not.
Frankly I would not expect anyone to do the heavy lifting any more than I would expect of myself.
I have my attempts at being an irritant or my apathy to PB, that is about all the tools available at this time.

But Christmas is coming and I have somehow managed to not order one of those surprise grab bags that PB loves so much.
I am just wondering when financial matters will get dire enough that Kevin will feel moved to tell us not to be Grinches and to give generously to his company charity.

**Stormonu**

Talizvar wrote:

I am just wondering when financial matters will get dire enough that Kevin will feel moved to tell us not to be Grinches and to give generously to his company charity.

Oh, I'd say about Thursday or Friday when the next PBWU comes out...

The man has no qualms about begging for money, but serious issues when it comes to earning it.

Sometimes I wonder if when Kevin arrives at work he immediately goes to holding up the collapsing ceiling of the company on his back, as if he were Atlas.

**Conrad Turner**

Talizvar wrote:
I have my attempts at being an irritant or my apathy to PB, that is about all the tools available at this time.

I also have my wallet. Which will be locked in a vault somewhere on Pluto so far as PB will be aware. A very easy (for me) promise to make is that they will not get another cent from me until and unless they either finish off wave 2 and send me what they owe me, or refund me everything bar the postage and the cost of the decal sheet.

Until that happy day, the apathy is strong with me!

**Talizvar**

Stormonu wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if when Kevin arrives at work he immediately goes to holding up the collapsing ceiling of the company on his back, as if he were Atlas.

In the dark.
I shake my head at the stories of Kev giving heck for leaving lights on.
I feel like sending them motion sensor light switches but due to the lack of activity, they would shut off all the time.
Speaking of no activity, I suppose I should check on the Kickstarter page.

**Conrad Turner**

Sorry, not that masochistic!

And motion detector lights are something they would love. Who knows what could go on in the dark, and all they'd have to do would be to glue a VF paper standee onto a rod and occasionally wave it around. It keeps the lights on, and gives them another excuse [not that they need one] to say "Wer're totally working on it, guys!"

**n815e**

I find it humorous and sad at the thought that the PB staff sit quietly at their desks, in the dark, staring at outdated computers while waiting for anything that resembles work to pass from Kevin's desk.
I'm sure that, in the winter, the heat is kept to the legal bare minimum, so sweaters and finger-less gloves it is. Perhaps employees must bring their own toilet paper; and water costs money too, so don't flush so often.
They may wonder why their lives have led them to the point where they had to ask their pal Kevin for a job and, in the process, have gained no marketable skills while working there.

Kevin touts the company's longevity, but just surviving (and with slimmer margins every year) isn't success. It does, however, create a corporate mentality that promotes further decline, as every cost in innovation is an unacceptable risk to someone who is afraid the doors will close.

**Tamwulf**

n815e wrote:
I find it humorous and sad at the thought that the PB staff sit quietly at their desks, in the dark, staring at outdated computers while waiting for anything that resembles work to pass from Kevin's desk.
I'm sure that, in the winter, the heat is kept to the legal bare minimum, so sweaters and finger-less gloves it is. Perhaps employees must bring their own toilet paper; and water costs money too, so don't flush so often.
They may wonder why their lives have led them to the point where they had to ask their pal Kevin for a job and, in the process, have gained no marketable skills while working there.

Kevin touts the company's longevity, but just surviving (and with slimmer margins every year) isn't success. It does, however, create a corporate mentality that promotes further decline, as every cost in innovation is an unacceptable risk to someone who is afraid the doors will close.

PB probably doesn't have any full time employees. And I highly doubt they even have desks or an "office" to work in. And I bet no one is on salary, but hourly, so Kevin can basically kick people out of the office and not pay them anything when there is no work. It's a horrible situation to be in, and yet is typical for the gaming industry. You never know if you have work from week to week, so you get a second job to pay the bills, or work on commission for other game companies (if Kevin allows that- I'd be surprised if it wasn't written into the employee contract that they could freelance or get a second job). And of course, If you have a second job trying to pay the bills, and a project comes up or you get a call out of the blue to come to work and you can't because you are at your other job... well, you could be fired. Horrible, horrible situation to be in.

**GabrielV**

Tamwulf wrote:

PB probably doesn't have any full time employees. And I highly doubt they even have desks or an "office" to work in. And I bet no one is on salary, but hourly, so Kevin can basically kick people out of the office and not pay them anything when there is no work. It's a horrible situation to be in, and yet is typical for the gaming industry. You never know if you have work from week to week, so you get a second job to pay the bills, or work on commission for other game companies (if Kevin allows that- I'd be surprised if it wasn't written into the employee contract that they could freelance or get a second job). And of course, If you have a second job trying to pay the bills, and a project comes up or you get a call out of the blue to come to work and you can't because you are at your other job... well, you could be fired. Horrible, horrible situation to be in.

There are videos and photographs of people touring the Palladium offices, and whatever is being shown in those videos and photos does look pretty office-like. Wikipedia lists the company address as 39074 Webb Court
Westland, Michigan 48185-7606. Checking Google Maps reveals a sort of set of industrial office/warehouse type buildings.

As for how anyone is compensated, I'd guess Alex is on salary. It's impossible to even hazard a guess on the rest as to how they're compensated. It is on record that Kevin regularly requires employees to work without pay. They're called full time, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Stories from most writers and artists indicate they're all paid per unit of work at a rate determined by Kevin when the manuscript or art is delivered. Kevin also regularly requests "fan friends" to work for free in the warehouse.

**evilsmurf**

Tamwulf wrote:

Kevin also regularly requests "fan friends" to work for free in the warehouse.

Theyre also the first ones thrown under a bus when something goes wrong.

**jaymz**

Some insight from a former employee in regards to how palladium operates. His employment was a good 6 years post bill coffin rant which i will add that while bill regrets the rant he has never recanted it and even his wife has said he was being reserved even in his rant about it.

Spoiler:

**GabrielV**

jaymz wrote:

You know what Kevin says when a freelancer finally demands that he be paid after two years of excuses or the next step is getting the law involved? "That's not fair. He has a real job. He's not writing for a living, he doesn't need that money."

Yep. Perhaps I should have clarified that in my post. Oftentimes the rate Uncle Kev decides on is zero.

**Merijeek**

But what were the better stories after the extra beers?

**Lynx7725**

Speaking of Savage Rifts, what the status of that KS? In the interest of keeping things mod-friendly, I'm just curious if they are still On-Time, On-Target.

**warboss**

jaymz wrote:
Some insight from a former employee in regards to how palladium operates. His employment was a good 6 years post bill coffin rant which i will add that while bill regrets the rant he has never recanted it and even his wife has said he was being reserved even in his rant about it.

Spoiler:

he was asked about the editing process at palladium. His response:

Yeah, the "editing" is a joke. If Kevin writes it, Alex and Julius (both of whom are incredible sperglords and total yes-men) "edit" it, all the while telling Kevin that it's awesome and the best thing they've ever read. If someone else writes it, then Kevin re-writes it, gives it to Alex and Julius who then "edit" the manuscript, all the while telling Kevin that it's awesome and the best thing they've ever read and only he could have fixed the obviously deeply flawed original manuscript.
This is, as you can imagine, a total joke. I one time went through a manuscript after Alex and caught a ton of super basic spelling and grammar mistakes, not to mention a couple of structural problems with the manuscript. This is after it'd gone through two sets of eyes and about a month on various desks. I brought this up to Himself and his answer was, Well, you have to remember, he's not a professional editor... He's been an Editor for twenty goddamned years! For money! That's the loving definition of a professional!
Anyway, there's also zero editorial guidance. There's no styleguide (just read any of our books and do it that way!), Everything seemed, to me at least, to be a guessing game as to what Kevin wanted, and the sum total of his editorial direction usually amounts to little more than, That's a great idea! Just write it!. Kevin doesn't believe that writers can edit/re-write their own work, nor can they follow directions. He told me that to my face. I didn't get a single re-write or piece of editorial direction until after I got laid off and started working for Fantasy Flight in '09.

when asked about the environment his answer:

Well, one thing I can talk about is the general office atmosphere. I worked from home mostly since the office is about thirty miles away from my house (I'm in NE Detroit), but once a week I'd go in for various things and it was always weird. The office is dead quiet, all the doors are closed, most of the lights are kept off (to save electricity)... it's like a tomb in there. Also, Kevin has no personal boundaries, wants everyone to be BFFs, and will tell you the most intimate details of his personal life at a moment's notice. The man has no filter. It's a pretty strange, inappropriate, and toxic environment.

he spoke of working on a rifter and having 3 dbess in it:

I've got three d-bees in that book. That whole thing was one of the rare collaborative efforts between freelancers. Kevin discouraged us from collaborating.

The he when asked why kevin discouraged collaborating:

Because someone might either actually steal or be accused of stealing some else's idea and there would be lawsuits. Seriously. I was part of a non-sanctioned freelancer incubator way back at the beginning of the 2000s called the Think-Tank. It was me, Jason Richards, Todd Yoho, Carl Gleba, and a bunch of other guys you've probably heard of. We did peer review, helped eachother out, had sounding board forums, it was really cool and a lot of the books that came out in the mid-to-late 00s came directly from that project. Kevin shut us down because he didn't want us collaborating for the above reasons.

commenting n Palladium's grasp of technology...

You guys realize that Kevin's grasp of technology, not just modern technology but any technology, is pretty much informed by comics, movies, and the Discovery Channel, right? When I was there the man didn't know how to attach files to emails. Wayne had to do it for him. I had to drag him out of his office one day to the parking lot to where I'd parked my 30 year old motorcycle so I could show him my battery to prove that no, Kevin, motorcycles don't have 6-volt charging systems and haven't since the 60s. He grudgingly admitted that yes, maybe some modern bikes may have 12-volt systems. This to a guy who restores old bikes as a hobby.
He's like functionally illiterate when it comes to technology. Alex isn't much better, since I think he believes that we have a lot of technology around from those, "Secret Weapons of WWII" books he likes so much.

It's even simpler than "had a picture lying around". It's, "These are the tanks that were in the Sergeant Rock comics I read as a kid. I bet they still use them!"
Other things Kevin had never heard of/couldn't understand: Carbines, logistics, motorcycles other than dirtbikes, harleys, or sport bikes, power/weight ratio, and many, many other things I can't remember off the top of my head. Those dudes are stuck in the late 70s, early 80s which, honestly, is more a "SE Michigan" problem and less a "Palladium Books" problem.

his comments o in regards to savage rifts:

Man, I've been out of the Palladium loop since Kevin laid me off in '09, but I'm glad to see some things never change. I'd heard that Robotech Tactics was a shitshow, but the depths of that poo poo are just stunning. Also, speaking of tremendous shitshows, I know the people involved in Savage Rifts. Hooo boy, that's gonna be a fun one to watch.

Basically it's two successful writers who are used to dealing with people who operate in good faith working with someone constitutionally incapable of working in good faith. I've been staying far away from it, but I don't really expect it to see the light of day, and the guys working on it will surely see the underside of a bus at some point in the project.

and comments in regards to a blam shift update on rrt a while back:

Of course it is. Kevin is the champion blamethrower. Nothing is ever his fault. He is the martyr, the constantly aggrieved, and the nicest guy. How can you tell? He'll tell you all about it!
Also, dude has no personal and professional boundaries. It got to the point where I'd kick him out of my office because he'd come in and want to tell me about his girl troubles. The man is pushing sixty. You're my boss, I don't want to hear about your "girl troubles", especially when you're the goddamned problem.

More about kevins editorial style etc:

It's all true. I was there for two years, and I was officially/unofficially in charge of the Robotech RPG (meaning that it wasn't in an official capacity, Kevin doesn't delegate, but he didn't care about Robotech and I did, so I took it over on my own). There is no editorial feedback, there are no rewrites, there is no guidance. There's no styleguide. Kevin believes that writers can't re-write their own material with editorial guidance. I've been doing this for sixteen goddamned years, and I've worked with a lot of writers. You know what? Writers can rewrite their own work with editorial guidance. That's what being a writer is about.

Also, someone mentioned upthread (in a conversation about poser covers) that he draws from the fanbase as opposed to industry professionals for his artists. True story. You know why? Because industry professionals expect to get paid. You know what Kevin says when a freelancer finally demands that he be paid after two years of excuses or the next step is getting the law involved? "That's not fair. He has a real job. He's not writing for a living, he doesn't need that money."
Let me get a few more beers in me and I can tell you some real good stories.

IIRC he had another post were he lamented the process of assigning projects to writers. Basically, unless the project was pitched and approved by an individual writer, it was a cattle call like rushing for a good seat on a budget airline or elbowing for the a fresh plate of newly brought out crabs at a cheap chinese buffet. Kevin apparently sends out a mass email and it's first come, first served. He contrasted that to FFG where the editors or line creative director (can't recall the exact title) assigned work to writers based on his evaluation of their proven prior abilities/work as well as their own interests.

**Mike1975**

Back in December and January after the KS ended, when I spoke to Kevin, he seemed like a really great guys at first and was very enthusiastic about RRT but there were a few WTF moments on that call. He spoke of a lawsuit for $200 from one of the artists or writers and several other things that really made me think since nobody I have ever met immediately gets into some of the things like the lawsuit that he spoke of during that call. Out of respect I won't mention anything more than that in any detail.....but geez......

**warboss**

Lol, looks like that part of the account is corroborated. Of course, this is no surprise as we got in depth coverage of his colonoscopy a few years back (seriously.... we did... in murmurs).