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It all leads to a big disappointment.

Harmony Gold saw fit to give the RPG license to Palladium Books.

Not quite sure who would have the equivalent to a "tabletop miniature wargame license" but I digress.

Kevin seems firmly stuck trying to hit that same RPG button that worked in his "glory days" but he is just not hearing the one handed clap in his echo-chamber.

Unfortunately, Kevin is oddly content for a narcissist to bask in past accomplishments or mimic them in the present day.

So we are pretty much at a dead-end where this IP is concerned, quite dead until we as "fan-friends" fade away to other pursuits and he notices.

Oddly, I think the only thing that would be interesting would be to agree to write nothing at the KS, Facebook or their forums for months.
No communication at all would freak him out more than bad communication.

 Krinsath wrote:

You do have to wonder though if anyone at PB noticed another campaign that had some notable hiccups (almost years delayed, surprise shipping costs, cancelled-and-refunded products, etc.) just finished another campaign that clocked in the #4 funding total on KickStarter and six times the original campaign. Obviously comparing that to this project is an apples-to-socket-wrench comparison, but it does seem to drive home that people will put up with quite a great deal if the final product is of appropriate quality. It's also kind of a "what might have been" moment had PB handled this campaign just a smidge better, but that is something of a "if things were different they wouldn't be the same" sort of statement. I'd also imagine if PB did notice, they'd take entirely the wrong lessons out of it...

I did not back Kingdom Death but I know a few people that did.. He was good about here is what is going on.. Some type of time line.. And I believe one expansion got booted and he returned the money to the backers.
So as a business he communicated the good and bad to his customers.. And now the trust is built they are willing to throw 10 million dollars at him.
Reaper is very good at that also.. they are on like their sixth kick starter.. and third bones.. Right now they are a few months behind but I have no worries because they give continuous updates
and reasonable alternate dates. So there is good people doing good kickstarters out there.. But honestly I feel sorry for the guy doing the Rifts miniature game.. I figure he will get hosed so hard;
he will know what way is up.. Sounds like he is going down the path of this is not Palladium games but everything involved is palladium owned..

Palladium Games Update January 13th, 2017
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – 2017 release

We are getting everything lined up and in place for all things Robotech® and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave II. As far as we are concerned, releasing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave II by the end of the year is a must! As I mentioned in another Weekly Update, I recently approved the cover for the first RRT scenario book, and we are already working on a second RRT scenario book.

We have also been plotting new adventure sourcebooks that will create new factions, aliens and mecha for Robotech®, one of which is tentatively titled Ghost Fleet. It would take a look at the early days of the UEEF and Shadow Technology, which means all kinds of prototypes and experimental mecha with Shadow Technology, space pirates, rogue Zentraedi, special ops and liberating people and planets from the Invid Regent.

We should be able to present you manufacturing details and a timetable in another month or so. We know it is frustrating without solid, specific news, as it is for us too, but we are working on it. And excited about finally getting Wave II into your hands.

Note: If you need to change/update your address in BackerKit, please send us a message through Kickstarter, or an email to kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com, and we’ll take care of it. And please, definitely send in those address changes.

Hope to have it before the end of the year... Where have we heard that before??

The man is an absolute fething idiot.

 Genoside07 wrote:

Hope to have it before the end of the year... Where have we heard that before??

Oh I dunno... like, every year?

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
Hope to have it before the end of the year... Where have we heard that before??

Oh I dunno... like, every year?

That sounds very Pinky and the Brain.

Flunky "Gee, Vain. What are we going to do this year?"
Vain "The same thing we do every year, Flunky. Try to release Wave 2!"
*the year passes*
Vain "Next year, Flunky, we will come up with a new plan. One that isn't foiled by the failures of others!"
*stomps off*
Vain "Come, Flunky, we must prepare for next year!"
Flunky "Why? What are we going to do next year?"
Vain "Same thing we do every year, Pinky. Try to release Wave 2!"
Flunky "POIT!"
Vain "Flunky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Flunky "I think so, Vain, but then it'd be Snow White and the Seven Samurai..."
Vain "Don't be an idiot, Flunky!"
*Vain scribbles down 'Snow White and the Seven Samurai' in his book of ingenious personal ideas to take sole credit for*

They're clunky, they're junky, they're Flunky and the Vain Vain Vain Vain, Vain Vain Vain Vain... Narf!

Be able to offer a manufacturing timetable in a month??
This is a lot of smoke and I really wonder what fire would cause a timetable to miraculously appear?
There has been zero hurry till now so unless some motivator can be identified I believe nothing.
It may be their "fan" interaction is down so trying another attention grabbing surge of false promises.

I think they are getting a little heat from Harmony Gold and with Rifts Tabletop game kickstarter coming up.
They will take the money from RTT2 to bankroll RTT wave 2, just like they used RTT money to
produce Rifts stuff.. Kevin is so smart.. there is nothing possible could go wrong with this plan..

I look forward to the next KS update with the concrete, set in stone manufacturing plans and a hard release date for Wave 2.

It's probably not coming next month what with Chinese New Year.

 Ctaylor wrote:
I look forward to the next KS update with the concrete, set in stone manufacturing plans and a hard release date for Wave 2.

I am sure they will give us more info soon. So stay frosty and keep the faith.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I think they are getting a little heat from Harmony Gold and with Rifts Tabletop game kickstarter coming up.
They will take the money from RTT2 to bankroll RTT wave 2, just like they used RTT money to
produce Rifts stuff.. Kevin is so smart.. there is nothing possible could go wrong with this plan..

The chances of them using funds from anything from Rifts KS's or other projects to bankroll Wave 2 are in the negatives, since they've very likely done the opposite.

This KS will never be completed, don't delude yourself other wise.

 Stormonu wrote:
The chances of them using funds from anything from Rifts KS's or other projects to bankroll Wave 2 are in the negatives, since they've very likely done the opposite.

This KS will never be completed, don't delude yourself other wise.

Yep. There's next to no chance that PB will use funds from this, to finish Wave 2 RRT, if there's even the slightest chance it'll make either the Rifts Boardgame, or the RPG part of the business founder. While Kevin is obviously a fan of Robotech, and has been for years, it has been, and will always be, something he enjoys and makes money off. But RPG's, and Rifts in particular, those are his children. There's simply no way he'll let those lines suffer, to meet his obligations for RRT.

Now, that's not to say if the Rifts Boardgame isn't successful, he can't use the profits to work on completing this project. Nor is it to say that as Forar has suggested on occasion, he can't utilize the RBG to get a cheaper rate on RRT (a larger single order for both games will reduce shipping and production costs for both, assuming he uses the same manufacturer*). Though like Stormonu, I don't think it'll happen.

* That's a big assumption. HIPS plastics, of which RRT is specifically supposed to be, is a significantly different process than your standard board game plastics, and I'm not sure if a company capable of producing the best price, is capable of doing both, over companies that specialize in one kind of manufacture.

I have to fully agree with this analysis. Kevin is not going to allow his baby "Rifts" to founder like he has done here.

I would suggest that if and when the Rifts BG kickstarter llaunches you will see a much tighter rein on expenses. I would expect a relatively liimited figure range (including any stretch goals put forward) and shipping to be charged as extra on top at the end. The figures themselves wil be boardgame quality softer plastics , likely one piece so no assembly. As a result no cross deals for manufacturing. As an aside I wonder if they will try the new Prodos Unicast as a supposed cheaper route?

Given this is supposed to be an independent project - we can argue with that later - then shifting funds to support RTT is unlikley. In the long run I do not believe that Rifts BG would be a massive retail hit either so little extra monies there. Therefore as regards RTT little has and is likely to change.

The new update is just vaporspeak, suggesting that they will have concrete news in a month or to simply puts everything on hold until after the Rifts BG KS. By that time the window of opportunity for RTT will have closed again and 2017 will be another no show -I fully expect some insider leaks to that effect as soon as Adepticon, but of course Kevin will never admit yet another failure to deliver

That is why I am reporting that project as a fraudulent endeavor the moment it goes live. Having my friend do the same, and he actually still uses Kickstarter for stuff. I refuse to use the thieving platform, they're no better than any other Confidence Person (conman) in the business.

Occam's razor, combined with Kevin being a thief and a liar, I predict we will see:

A stunning declaration, shortly before the Rifts(tm) Tabletop(tm) Board(tm) Game(c) that a manufacturer is lined up and that product will be in the mail by Gen Con.

Shortly after the Rifts(tm) Tabletop(tm) Board(tm) Game(c) funds (and after the pledge manager closes) we will all find out that, oops, problem, and Wave Two will not ship by Gen Con. But it will soon(tm) with soon(tm) stretching on into infinity.

Being Kevin Simibieda, and Palladium Books, being epic-level fethups, they will, in fact, fail to get the pledge manager up and closed before the time in which the product would have had to have shipped.

It will then become clear that they are, in fact, completely full of it, and people will abandon the pledge manager in droves. Well, the sensible ones will, anyway.

Rifts is being handled by someone else..So Kevin will not be at fault.. No matter how much he truly is..
He can and will.. just blame the scapegoat designer for all the delays, errors and what ever
he thinks needs to be washed clean of..

The reporting the project as a fraudulent endeavor is a good idea, because the poor designer is just a front for Kevin because
Palladium games can never show their faces on Kick starter.. Again.. no matter how good or bad it goes, it's not Kevin's fault.

The backing of Wave 2 with rifts table top was kind of a joke.. I know the RTT project is dead.. Besides what would we do
if it was miraculously released was good..We would no longer have a common enemy and Kevin would no longer be considered a moron.
But It would not surprise me if Kevin would do something like that, trying to do the old rob Peter to pay Paul scheme.
Him only ordering 150 savage rifts card packs for a new game release shows he is at the level of basement publishers in numbers.
As a publisher at their point of history, I think they could only get game distributors to pick up minimum numbers out of nostalgia
kindness if any at all. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't go direct as some of the older game companies have done..

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

* That's a big assumption. HIPS plastics, of which RRT is specifically supposed to be, is a significantly different process than your standard board game plastics, and I'm not sure if a company capable of producing the best price, is capable of doing both, over companies that specialize in one kind of manufacture.

I have to correct this; RRT is supposed to be produced in ABS (God alone knows why). There are a great many manufacturers who deal in HIPS for wargames minis, not the least of whom are Wargames Factory (who many folks use as their manufacturer).

As Winterdyne wrote, God alone knows why they went for one of the most difficult plastics to produce quality minis in to make this lot from. Maybe Kev heard someone mention HIPS [High Impact PolyStyrene] and thought it meant a person scrimshawing each piece out of a pelvic bone. I wouldn't put it past the man. ABS [Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene] is a 3 part polymer THAT IS NOT TRANSPARENT. Polystyrene IS transparent and therefore you can make transparent cockpits for aircraft models out of the same basic material as the rest and they glue on easily.

ABS is a long molecule made up of 3 different monomers. Acrylonitrile is a plastic, Butadiene is a rubber, and Styrene is a plastic. This is why it can't be compounded as a transparent part, there are 3 different refractive indexes all working against each other Although I suspect that the high-end grades are completely compoundable and produce homogenous melts, they will also be the most expensive grades, and I can't see dear uncle Kev paying out for that. I suspect that PB would have gone with a much cheaper grade, which would have much less control over the compounding of the material and could well mean agglomerations of Butadiene causing warping when the frames are de-moulded.

Polystyrene, which HIPS is an adaption of, is a very well known entity. Companies have been making dimensionally stable parts from for many years, and if you are prepared to spend a little more on tooling for such things as slide-core moulds or in-mould transfer application, can look amazing without any real work other than assembly being done by the purchaser. I have a few "Patlabor" models where the entire thing is moulded in colour - including the transparent and trans red parts on the same frame. These 'Multi-shot' frames are really excellent, but PB would never spring for the costs.

winterdyne wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
* That's a big assumption. HIPS plastics, of which RRT is specifically supposed to be, is a significantly different process than your standard board game plastics, and I'm not sure if a company capable of producing the best price, is capable of doing both, over companies that specialize in one kind of manufacture.

I have to correct this; RRT is supposed to be produced in ABS (God alone knows why). There are a great many manufacturers who deal in HIPS for wargames minis, not the least of whom are Wargames Factory (who many folks use as their manufacturer).

You are correct, it was ABS. HIPS was another company.

Both are styrene with ABS adding acrylonitrile butadiene, and HIPS adding polybutadiene. However, both are significantly harder materials than your standard boardgame mini plastics.

So, with that correction, my point stands. It being unlikely that the best price will come from a company that can do both, rather than from two companies that specialize in one each.

I haven't really been following this. I put $255 in on the KS (I think) and I got a box on some stuff a few years ago. I looked at one model and saw that it was junk and haven't touched the box since then. I haven't even read the book.

What is likely the problem(s)? They got around $1.4M for 5k'ish customers, which is like $280 / person.

0) Was it always a scam and they took the lion's share and produced the min and kept a bunch of $?

1) Did PB under estimate the cost to make the models?

2) Did they use the money for so other product (I know nothing about PB's other stuff)?

3) ...?

I know we don't know for sure, but there must be rumors / logical guesses.

Why doesn't PB just come out and say, sorry. RRT is dead and you all will get nothing else? There is little chance this is a hit for them, since I've never seen it played in a MD or DC gamestore.

Oh, we know for sure. PB is led by a narcistic individual who does only the minimal amount of work to stoke his own ego. They overpromised on models, dragged their feet on completing the up-front work for the rules and models, ignored advice on which manufactuer to use for the model creations, didn't account for shipping costs and delays, overbought stock and failed to support the product.

In short, it's been a cock-up since inception and only rolled downhill from there.

If they admitted they no longer had the funds to complete Wave 2, they would have to issue refunds to the backers, which would bankrupt them, as they're running on fumes as it is.

Shipping costs have risen dramatically since the kickstarter, too.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
As Winterdyne wrote, God alone knows why they went for one of the most difficult plastics to produce quality minis in to make this lot from. Maybe Kev heard someone mention HIPS [High Impact PolyStyrene] and thought it meant a person scrimshawing each piece out of a pelvic bone. I wouldn't put it past the man. ABS [Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene] is a 3 part polymer THAT IS NOT TRANSPARENT. Polystyrene IS transparent and therefore you can make transparent cockpits for aircraft models out of the same basic material as the rest and they glue on easily.

ABS is a long molecule made up of 3 different monomers. Acrylonitrile is a plastic, Butadiene is a rubber, and Styrene is a plastic. This is why it can't be compounded as a transparent part, there are 3 different refractive indexes all working against each other Although I suspect that the high-end grades are completely compoundable and produce homogenous melts, they will also be the most expensive grades, and I can't see dear uncle Kev paying out for that. I suspect that PB would have gone with a much cheaper grade, which would have much less control over the compounding of the material and could well mean agglomerations of Butadiene causing warping when the frames are de-moulded.

Polystyrene, which HIPS is an adaption of, is a very well known entity. Companies have been making dimensionally stable parts from for many years, and if you are prepared to spend a little more on tooling for such things as slide-core moulds or in-mould transfer application, can look amazing without any real work other than assembly being done by the purchaser. I have a few "Patlabor" models where the entire thing is moulded in colour - including the transparent and trans red parts on the same frame. These 'Multi-shot' frames are really excellent, but PB would never spring for the costs.

Actually you might familiarize yourself with LEGO which is exclusively (99%)made of ABS plastic, even the clear transparent parts.

evancich wrote:
I haven't really been following this. I put $255 in on the KS (I think) and I got a box on some stuff a few years ago. I looked at one model and saw that it was junk and haven't touched the box since then. I haven't even read the book.

What is likely the problem(s)? They got around $1.4M for 5k'ish customers, which is like $280 / person.

0) Was it always a scam and they took the lion's share and produced the min and kept a bunch of $?

1) Did PB under estimate the cost to make the models?

2) Did they use the money for so other product (I know nothing about PB's other stuff)?

3) ...?

I know we don't know for sure, but there must be rumors / logical guesses.

Why doesn't PB just come out and say, sorry. RRT is dead and you all will get nothing else? There is little chance this is a hit for them, since I've never seen it played in a MD or DC gamestore.

0: no one can say if it was a scam or not, highly unlikely, but then it is Kevin we are talking about here.
1: PB did not bother having their own Mini producer manager who is familiar with the trade, but doubt costs were underestimated if anything PB's greed and money mismanagement was under estimated.
2: no evidence the money was used on things other then RRT, but there is strong insinuation and possibility that it was. PB did over order on wave 1 which used a large amount of funds, also PB happened to finally have a couple of Northern Gun Books that were massively delayed come out right after they got the money from the RRT project.

Asterios wrote:


Actually you might familiarize yourself with LEGO which is exclusively (99%)made of ABS plastic, even the clear transparent parts.

Sorry Asterios. Maybe you ought to look again. The transparent parts are PolyCarbonate. As I stated, you cannot get a transparent part from a plastic with three different refractive indexes. I don't disagree that around 99% of lego is ABS, but it's the transparent PC parts that make up the other 1%.

Edit: Not to forget the SBS rubber they use for tyres and the like, of course.

Most of my knowledge about plastics is that most have a "recipe", so there is a mixture of things in it, not just one type of material.
Even with the most minor change it could make the properties of the material completely different.
But back on topic.. You think Kevin knows any of this??

Manufacturer - What kind of plastic material do you want us to use..??
Kevin - What is the cheapest?? (And there is your reason why he used it)

 Conrad Turner wrote:

Asterios wrote:


Actually you might familiarize yourself with LEGO which is exclusively (99%)made of ABS plastic, even the clear transparent parts.

Sorry Asterios. Maybe you ought to look again. The transparent parts are PolyCarbonate. As I stated, you cannot get a transparent part from a plastic with three different refractive indexes. I don't disagree that around 99% of lego is ABS, but it's the transparent PC parts that make up the other 1%.

Edit: Not to forget the SBS rubber they use for tyres and the like, of course.

Sorry Conrad, you should go look again, cause when it comes to ABS I know a whole lot more then you do evidently. also actually the tires are made of Rubber, plus a few other parts, but I can say with certainty their transparent parts are made with ABS, as it goes ABS starts off Clear and has color added to it, but then again if you knew anything about ABS or even plastics you would know this, but obviously you do not, as it goes anyone can go look and they will see ABS does come in transparent clear or what have you.

and just to show off ooh looky Transparent ABS filament you can buy:

http://store.afinia.com/ABS-175-mm-Filament-1kg--Transparent_p_39.html

and oh wait here is an article about Transparent clear ABS

http://www.hardiepolymers.com/knowledge/transparent-abs-can-be-a-clear-winner/

oh and another one:

http://www.unicgroup.com/_en/02_product/03_product_detail.php?mid=27

So before you go correcting me, you better be sure you are right, which obviously in this case you are not.

another article:

http://what-when-how.com/materialsparts-and-finishes/abs-plastics/

as it goes ABS is normally thought of as an opaque substance, but it is also done in Transparent colors too as it is done with LEGO Transparent pieces.

but to be honest the ABS used in RRT is such an inferior product doubt it is done in Transparent, while LEGO is done in a higher grade of ABS and pretty much has no limits per se.

 Genoside07 wrote:
Most of my knowledge about plastics is that most have a "recipe", so there is a mixture of things in it, not just one type of material.
Even with the most minor change it could make the properties of the material completely different.
But back on topic.. You think Kevin knows any of this??

Manufacturer - What kind of plastic material do you want us to use..??
Kevin - What is the cheapest?? (And there is your reason why he used it)

there are much cheaper plastics used in miniature games then ABS, albeit ABS is an odd choice to use.

The reason ABS isn't used particularly in wargames models is twofold;

1) It's harder and denser. This makes it more brittle, although less susceptible to warping - one of the reasons lego uses it for its rigid parts. This does mean that there's much more work to do in getting parts to sit flush when you assemble them, if your tooling isn't bang on. Lego has superb tooling with a very very low margin of error.

2) It's a little too stable - this means that you actually need a fairly nasty solvent to weld it - standard poly cement won't cut it - you need MEK, which isn't so commonly used by modellers these days.

winterdyne wrote:
The reason ABS isn't used particularly in wargames models is twofold;

1) It's harder and denser. This makes it more brittle, although less susceptible to warping - one of the reasons lego uses it for its rigid parts. This does mean that there's much more work to do in getting parts to sit flush when you assemble them, if your tooling isn't bang on. Lego has superb tooling with a very very low margin of error.

2) It's a little too stable - this means that you actually need a fairly nasty solvent to weld it - standard poly cement won't cut it - you need MEK, which isn't so commonly used by modellers these days.

they(Testors, Tamiya, etc...) actually have modeling glues designed for work with ABS plastics.

Can we all stop with the snarky disingenuous apologies and waving of plastics credentials, please?

And in case it isn't obvious - I insist.