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 Talizvar wrote:


- Say the kickstarter goes the realm of RRT. Kickstarter would well and truly be dead to them (one would think).

well Kevin could try to con Wayne into doing a kickstarter, but then me wonders how much Wayne already has in the company with the offices under his name and all.

Yeah, that happened. It was a couple of years ago, so the exact amount is a bit fuzzy, but as I recall, it cost like a couple hundred bucks for 300 prints, or that much plus $15 more for 1000.

Basically, a massive portion of the costs were in fees and set up, the materials, labor, and slot for production itself were minuscule in comparison.

Similarly, I've started a small side business making Challenge Coins for a Facebook group I'm a part of, and while the savings aren't quite the same, a similar effect is in place;

10 coins would cost me around $300 plus shipping
100 coins would cost me around $432 plus shipping
200 coins would cost me around $616 plus shipping.

Once the printer is set up or the mold is milled or the press is designed and the acrylic layout is arranged, most of it is done, punching out the sprues or coins or calendars is not that big a deal. A lot of it seems to be sort of the baseline fee "this is what it costs to make it worth our while to even set this gak up, the actual price per unit beyond that is peanuts".

I'm not saying this holds up in every situation or business ever, but given how often we throw around Economy of Scale in these discussions, it's always neat to me to see it in action.

The first run of coins I did I got 100, and they sold out pretty quickly. The second round I just bought into, I had 200 made, as they are new (the first were a repeat of a previous order), so while my price per unit dropped by $1.25, I'm also likely going to drop the cost charged to members similarly to help move these things.

It's been fun/interesting to actually take that up, front some money, get something neat made, set prices, sort out shipping, all that.

Morgan Vening wrote:
If Carmen doesn't set a realistic total for initial funding, hoping that a low initial target gets the "hype" thing happening, he's opening himself up to failure. I mean, even RRT. The initial goal was $70K. If that's all they'd gotten, there was no way they'd have done what they were initially offering. So... it could be an immediate disaster (fails to fund), a quick disaster (funds, but not enough to produce, and he admits and refunds), or any multitude of slow disasters. And as Tali said, even if it's a success for Carmen, all that's going to do is make PB look even worse.

As Forar said, I was running on the assumption that a "bare minimum" order and it's various expenses and logistics would be determined which would be quite high in low volumes.
As the scale increases, the expense would be that much less so the risk is less (more margin).
So you are correct that if the bare minimum is set and that is exactly what gets funded, it would be a nail biter assuming of course he is not pulling a Pallaidum.

I can't speak to how most Kickstarters do it, but ordering units for backers and web sales and retail (if applicable) all at once seems sensible from that perspective. If they can get 1000 units for X and 10,000 units for 2x or 3x, hell yeah, efficiency abounds! Especially if they only need 2000 or 3000 for Backers, and the rest can be sold for profit through wholesale costs to distributors, or even better that sweet MSRP money from people who are willing to overpay for things for whatever reason.

Should the money specifically for retail stock come from personal finances over Kickstarter funding? Meh. I don't want to be blase about it, but for all the "OMG THEY OVER BOUGHT FOR RETAIL!" we go through now and then, the only reason it stands out is because it's a clusterfeth of a campaign. I'm sure Reaper and CMoN and Dwarven Forge and dozens of other mini/board game based campaigns do that, or make a token effort to keep finances separate, but again, it's more an issue because they (seem to have) fethed it up than the actual notion of procuring both at the same time.

Not to mention that most campaigns are explicitly aiming to go to retail. It can fall under the purview of the project and still be an overwhelming mess. Whether because they didn't get quite the savings they were hoping for (eg; boxes and expansions were obtained at a better deal, but they lost out yuuuuge on shipping or something), or even if they had a reasonable margin of error and the costs just ate it up (they have complained publicly in the past about the mold costs being much higher than anticipated, shipping in late 2014/mid 2015 probably ate a fair deal of their funds compared to what they took in mid/late 2013. They complained about having to redo the files because reasons, might've had costs there. They admitted to wasting a couple thousand (as I recall) on advertising for the Dec 2013 launch in trade magazines.

Those who have been paying attention should know I'm not defending their inaction, or positing benefit of the doubt. Simply contrasting what I have seen across dozens of campaigns and the last half decade or so, with what we see here. I doubt Bones 4 or KD:M 2 or whatever will have people demanding to see the exact breakdown of every last dollar. Because when it works out, even when heavily delayed, people generally don't think about it or care.

I think Morgan's right, there's probably a big grey area between the Rifts Board Game funding and actually being able to produce quantities cost effectively that will meet Backer needs and retail demand (if it exists).

 Forar wrote:


It's been fun/interesting to actually take that up, front some money, get something neat made, set prices, sort out shipping, all that.

You must have avoided non-Euclidean Robotech=like design.

I thought about it, but the factory explicitly stated 'No Eldritch Shapes'.

Well, unless I wanted to pay a massive premium.

And have the coins would have come in two dozen pieces.

Which is just awkward to carry around.

Most manufacturers have a Minimum Order Quantity. They want 1.5-3k orders before they start the presses. There was one printer we talked to in the US that wanted 10k orders just to give us a quote.

The Cost of Goods per unit does drop as you increase order size, but not drastically. The big savings is in the logistics and fixed costs (like molds and punchboard tooling), amortized over a larger print run.

Being barely successful can be dangerous if the goal is set too low.

Nobody cares where retail stock funding comes from when the company filfills its obligation. When they take project money and gamble it on stock, then it is an issue.

 n815e wrote:
Nobody cares where retail stock funding comes from when the company filfills its obligation. When they take project money and gamble it on stock, then it is an issue.

Which appears to be well demonstrated.
To be clear, when the money is gambled on stock and there is still more production to pay for and fulfill.
That was the roll of the dice that was unforgivable.
Gambling on backer's money to spend on retail product and not ensuring they got production going on the remaining rewards.
The cost savings on economy of scale for ordering was an easy trap to fall into with no idea on retail/consumer demand.
No wonder it keeps looking like our fault (PB's viewpoint) where we would have what we wanted (that is the theory anyway) if we just bought more stuff!

BTW... Still under review at KS... complaints must have been piling up. Could KS flag people for "nuisance" reporting of people posting? I said things that were painful to read but not being a "jerk" according to their loosely defined rules. This may be a good thing, some sober second thought when the Rifts boardgame goes live may be the thing.

 Talizvar wrote:

BTW... Still under review at KS... complaints must have been piling up. Could KS flag people for "nuisance" reporting of people posting? I said things that were painful to read but not being a "jerk" according to their loosely defined rules. This may be a good thing, some sober second thought when the Rifts boardgame goes live may be the thing.

nope just you since I've never been reported well under review

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
But Pa Pa Kevin promises he is working on RTT and we only
need to buy the Rifts Board game because he is not working on it.

As I said over on the Kickstarter Commentary...

#128, Jan 30 2014 "WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014 – The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October"
#167, Jan 14 2015 "Wave Two is coming in 2015."
#190, Jan 30 2016 "As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you."
#196, Feb 4 2017 "But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017."

But they really mean it this time! Really! Why won't people believe them!

At least he's consistent.

I love the fact there is only 6 updates between jan 2016 and feb 2017 I guess you can only say "no really trust us this time we pinky swear this time!" so much..... and Jazz Hands....

The one thing tho, I feel like we dont bash Ninja Division enough, I mean according to pa pa Kevin its all their fault, and customs fault, and chinese new years fault, and the shipping company's fault, and the fan friends who didn't pledge enough's fault, and the people who didn't buy it at all the cons fault and Waynes fault for not pimping the Robotech name enough's fault. Anyone but Kevin's fault . I mean look at all those outside factors that a lot of other company's work with np, how could it be Kevin's fault?

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
I love the fact there is only 6 updates between jan 2016 and feb 2017 I guess you can only say "no really trust us this time we pinky swear this time!" so much..... and Jazz Hands....

The one thing tho, I feel like we dont bash Ninja Division enough, I mean according to pa pa Kevin its all their fault, and customs fault, and chinese new years fault, and the shipping company's fault, and the fan friends who didn't pledge enough's fault, and the people who didn't buy it at all the cons fault and Waynes fault for not pimping the Robotech name enough's fault. Anyone but Kevin's fault . I mean look at all those outside factors that a lot of other company's work with np, how could it be Kevin's fault?

Five Updates really. The two in March was just because Wayne screwed up the first by putting it out prematurely, and was correcting. But I suppose if you take too fine an analysis of things, you could probably lose another one or two for providing zero information, at least for the project in question.

As for blame to Ninja Division, <not sure if serious.gif>. Some people maintain that ND are deserving of significant blame. Others have speculated theories that absolve them. As ND haven't said what's happened, nor has any actual information come out, it's hard to know to what extent they're actually responsible. Personally, I'm of the belief in the latter, but only because of anecdotal information.

That being, at least,
* ND appearing to be a subcontractor rather than a partner (that it's not linked at all by ND, and their complete distance from the project).
* PB's treatment of prior subcontractors (several have significant horror stories of meddling and incompetence)
* ND's several successes since then that would make RRT an exception, rather than a rule.
* PB's lack of success since then where they promise big and fail to deliver (8 books promised in the first half of last year, 1 released on time, one delayed an additional 5 months).
* Most importantly, as far as I'm concerned, Kevin says it's ND's fault.

If there was little other information, that last one would be enough. If Kevin said the sun rose in the west, I'd still want to check before I took his word for it. And with noone at ND speaking, and with only Kevin and his puppet making these assertions, it's hard to take those statements seriously. Until I see compelling information that comes from a source that isn't a PB employee or PB flunky, or seeing ND do something as catastrophic as what RRT has become, I'll probably remain of the belief that while ND are a part of this, they aren't a significant (and especially not the overriding) factor in the disaster that is RRT.

The under review by Kickstarter continues...
My posts are still there...
I sure like being in limbo...
It is only conjecture but NMI? You being "bad" again?

In other news, I am trying Krylon Fusion on Shapeways plastics and seeing if that works well for removing some fuzzy elements of the "White, Strong & Flexible".
Funny how hacking up a one piece "mono-pose" model is preferable to putting together a 20 piece mono-pose model.

Think I need to get together a "gravity bomb" dedicated add-on VT squadron.
Something I wanted to do for a bit, yes I am choosing to have dedicated WYSIWYG missile / bomb load-outs on my VTs.

Not sure if I want any more Destroids other than some character ones made-up.
The double beat-stick Spartan is wanted for sure.
One squad (4) of each type should is what I have made-up and should be enough.
VT's with the various head changes will be interesting if I continue with my glued-on parts (3 models for "1" guy... sheesh!).

Lots of pods certainly seems to be the easier route but you know I need an even points cost of opposing forces.

February 16,2017 update Robotech® RPG Tactics™, and all things Robotech®, is one of our biggest, most demanding projects, as we look toward getting Wave Two into manufacturing as well as releasing additional support for the game line. We are working on some exciting new possibilities.

Well at least Kevin sees his kickstarter customers as "demanding" when we have already paid for a product he should have produced three years ago..

Morgan Vening wrote:

PB's treatment of prior subcontractors (several have significant horror stories of meddling and incompetence)

Completely agree with this and the reason why my plans is to wait for Rifts Board game to arrive at Retail before giving it a serious look.

So, Carmen posted (first post here) to the RRT KS Comments about his new project. To keep this on topic, I'll keep this confined as much as I can to RRT and PB related issues rather than specifics to the new game itself. This was also Carmen's first comment on RRT.

"So first off, I am a backer of this project too just like you, and I’m in the same boat as all of you."
Most of the backers in the same boat aren't listed as designers or writers in the credits for RRT. That's a big difference, and while I know Carmen doesn't want to be tied to RRT, his continual insistence that he had nothing to do with it, kinda stinks. Sure, he's unlikely to be responsible for the delays, but to pretend you weren't a part of the team when the project founders, just comes across as Palladiesque. Wonder if he'd be keeping this quiet on the matter if RRT was a success?

"In the meantime, I have to get my Kickstarter going if I am going to meet my contractual obligations to Palladium Books and try to make back at least some of the money my wife let me invest in the Rifts: Board Game."
Nice to know that Kevin holds others to their contractual obligations while continuing to completely abdicate his own. That Carmen is being rushed into this while RRT remains in purgatory (as well as the backlog of promised RPG books), is just setting him up for issues in the campaign. As I saw in another project (Shadows of Brimstone), even people who weren't disgruntled from the first campaign, were skeptical of backing the second campaign, because the first hadn't been completely fulfilled yet. I can see there being more than a few backers of RRT who might withhold funding the new game while RRT remains outstanding.

"Not to throw stones but the Ninja Division chose the wrong manufacturer for the RRT, they forgot to charge shipping on the Kickstarter and made some other errors (in my opinion), while they meant good, mistakes were made."
As I said in my post above, regarding blame, I'd like this from a non-PB source. That the middle part is wrong (shipping), doesn't help his case. Now, you can argue shipping was underfunded, but it was charged for. At the time, Kickstarter custom was to include shipping to the US in the base cost, and then just charge shipping for international orders, that was all done. And this was explained during the campaign and in the time leading up to the Pledge Manager.

"I will simply step away and let it burn. I am under no obligations to help with the RRT but I DO have the contacts and knowledge to help fix it." Regarding RRT Backers causing trouble for RiftsBG.
But I didn't think you were a part of RRT, Carmen? That you were "in the same boat". Sorry, issuing threats like this, to people who have already written off the project, is just going to encourage them. And using that to punish the vast majority of backers who are unlikely to know or care about your project, is Kevin level of petty.

"Of course, you will be damaging Rogue Heroes, not Palladium, but it might make you feel better."
Well, except for the fact that Carmen admitted that beyond a licensing fee, PB get a royalty from each game sold (allegedly after the initial costs are recouped). If that's true, sinking this project DOES hurt PB. It cripples Rogue Heroes, but to argue there's no downside for PB (especially as it'd also hurt their branding and the value of Rifts as an IP), is plain wrong.

As expected, the response from the BtC (Backers that Comment), was less than hospitable. And then Carmen getting into it with them. He probably should have not engaged, but then, he probably shouldn't have posted in the first place. Things are definitely looking to be interesting, in a "plane crashes into train plowing into a bus" type way. As someone with no interest (or antipathy) towards Rifts, it's definitely looking like I'm going to need more popcorn.

Also by Carmen:


"I don't know what the delays are with the Robotech KS, since I have been too busy building my own game to look into it. But I wanted to lay all the cards on the table, if the RRT backers attack my future KS I will never help find out what is the problem with the Robotech RRT and I am in a position to find out if I want to. . But I read nothing but posts here how everyone wants to kill my KS (my personal dream) and if that happens I hope the RRT burns. But if everyone plays nice I will do my damnest to fix these delays. I was just being frank and direct."

...yeah, that makes me want to help you alright.

That is some fine high level foolishness on his part.

And the backers are definitely letting him know.

Do you have a (preferably screen-shotted) source for that quote?
I suspect that will be in a lot of complaints to KickStarter on the RIfts game launch

Well he just guaranteed that I'm going to put up my one dollar to troll the comments. He blatantly says he can do something about RRT, but only if we fund his project?

 ThaneCawdor wrote:
Do you have a (preferably screen-shotted) source for that quote?
I suspect that will be in a lot of complaints to KickStarter on the RIfts game launch

https://goo.gl/photos/2gGuCiDHP1NhsVLs6


Would this do? It's taken directly from the RRT KS's comments section.

The comments go on after that, though.

Oh, isn't that cute? Carmen will now show up to the KS comments now that a number of people can't post anymore.

Merijeek wrote:
Oh, isn't that cute? Carmen will now show up to the KS comments now that a number of people can't post anymore.

Well, it's not like the remaining people aren't readying the tar and feathers...

Thanks. And that's even better- I thought it was on the PB forums.

 Albertorius wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Oh, isn't that cute? Carmen will now show up to the KS comments now that a number of people can't post anymore.

Well, it's not like the remaining people aren't readying the tar and feathers...

Maybe he really bought his own press and thought most people were just fine with thieves? Maybe it was a clever plot by Kevin's henchman and the housecleaning wasn't nearly as thorough as he was led to believe? Petty politics among bottom feeders can get pretty nasty.

I know he is a small company, but most people know as a company to stay neutral on any given situation.
When corporations stocks plummet over any bad news; does Carmen think this his helping his cause?

I am sure he will get backers, but I am sure the quality of the work will be on Palladium level where it looks
like it was done thirty years ago.. And we have a clear history of Kevin's meddling and hijacking projects.
So, If a true crazy happens.. we might get it before RTT

With the discussion earlier about price dropping for more order quantity; do you think they are combining
RTT and Rifts to try to get better pricing. Wouldn't surprise me if they were doing it that way.. And paying the
bills with Carmen's money. If this goes bad.. I see a friendship ending..

Carmen's words come across as empty promises and threats as I remain skeptical that he'd be able to influence or impact for better or worse at this point.

Even giving him the benefit of the doubt*, he's clueless if he thinks that running a successful board game KS will give him the clout to fix the clusterf--k that RRT has become.

* And even this is difficult. I find it hard to believe that he has been associated with PB for so long and not realize the problem is Kevin. At best, he's a deluded enabler who strokes Kevin's ego. At worst, he's actively involved in the crap that's going on and lying about it.

Posting on the RRT comments section was a terrible decision on his part as I don't see any way for him to come out a winner short of providing a timeline for Wave 2 fulfillment and solid evidence backing it His best bet would be to distance himself from PB and rebrand the RBG as something else and later do a Rifts expansion or adaptation at some point in the future.

Let's be real, any 'housecleaning' that didn't include me wasn't remotely thorough enough.

I still think your time out, Meri, was more based on the 'colourful' way you express yourself than simply quelling dissenting voices. Or at least more easily applied.

Maybe mine will arrive shortly and I can join you in the corner.

Jorel was obnoxious for months and quarters, but it took a number of reports and him going unhinged a few times for something to stick.

With this new 'late April' starting target, it becomes even more plausible that they just copy the start/end dates for RRT for a little extra bit of trolling.

Looking through the comments again, I noticed that another fan-friend stating that he's trying to secure rights to one of Palladium's IPs. This seems at odds with PB's iron fisted control of their IP. Could it be that Kevin is seeing that the end of PB is near and he's trying to farm out what he wants to save to some puppets?

My thought is that perhaps Hollywood didn't renew their options for a Rifts film , which has always been Kevin's pie in the sky hail mary of seeing his company make it to the big leagues. In recent past he's allowed the Savage Worlds RPG which is ok because it's just another rpg product which is their bread and butter, but a board game implies there may have been a shift in the movie option realm because a board game would be in the same realm of rights for toys, which any sort of potential movie investor would want locked down as it's a huge money maker. He'd never risk farming out IP rights that could place him in conflict with anyone holding film options. Which could be an indicator that those options weren't renewed as he typically likes to crow about it in his murmurs as it being the big thing in the works. Not claiming to have any inside knowledge just speculating given the past behavior and seeing a new shift.

Since they like to crank out pencils cups and bags, they should totally do a PB branded toilet paper with Kevin's smiling face printed on it as I know a lot of people who'd buy it.

Morgan Vening wrote:

As expected, the response from the BtC (Backers that Comment), was less than hospitable. And then Carmen getting into it with them. He probably should have not engaged, but then, he probably shouldn't have posted in the first place. Things are definitely looking to be interesting, in a "plane crashes into train plowing into a bus" type way. As someone with no interest (or antipathy) towards Rifts, it's definitely looking like I'm going to need more popcorn.

more like a jumbo garbage dumpster of popcorn since it is now going to get very ugly.

 Forar wrote:
Let's be real, any 'housecleaning' that didn't include me wasn't remotely thorough enough.

I still think your time out, Meri, was more based on the 'colourful' way you express yourself than simply quelling dissenting voices. Or at least more easily applied.

Maybe mine will arrive shortly and I can join you in the corner.

Jorel was obnoxious for months and quarters, but it took a number of reports and him going unhinged a few times for something to stick.

With this new 'late April' starting target, it becomes even more plausible that they just copy the start/end dates for RRT for a little extra bit of trolling.

and i'm still allowed to post there, how bizarre.