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 paulson games wrote:
Yeah I know that there's some designs like the Mac II that wouldn't be an issue but because they were bumped to part of wave two would unfortunately become collateral damage . If there's one thing Kevin is completely governed by it's paranoia about lawsuits, which could easily account for why everything has been on ice if he even caught the faintest idea there might be a legal issue. Don't have anything tangible to support this but if lack of money isn't the issue as PB claims, there has to be a major (& unannounced) issue to cause this all to ball up like this. It has to be something serious that threatens the entire project otherwise they'd be able to talk about it and all we get is spin or silence.

AFAIK, the designs that might be subject to that would be the Orguss design, the redesigned VF-4 and the variant heads for the VFs. Other than those, I'd said nothing else should be affected, and even in that case the variant heads are already released.

If those were major sticking points, they do have the information to recognize the scope of the problem. I mean, we completed the pledge manager years ago, it shouldn't be all that difficult to ascertain how many people even ordered those things, as I don't believe they were made part of the Battle Cry/etc tiers, but would've been explicitly bought as add ons.

Yes, yes, usual caveats, this is PB we're talking about. I'm simply noting that if one or two designs were problematic, and only a small fraction of the backers are actually getting them, working something out wouldn't be the toughest thing in the world (yes, again, for a company less committed to fething things up).

Offer up an option to get different add ons or a refund on those specific pieces, express regret that it has come to this, find a small silver lining that having a couple of models off the project does make it a bit easier/faster to work on the remainder, etc. Standard corporate speak and maybe some tiny kudos for having the courage to actually admit to/talk about a problem and take steps towards resolution.

And yes, obviously some people would lose their minds over that. Why offer refunds when you won't offer them to everyone?! Lawl PB failure, etc, etc. But as I've been saying for years, catering to what they fear the lowest common denominator online will do only punishes the entire community because a few voices will chew them out for doing or not doing anything. Letting them set the conversation with this head in the sand approach is a big part of the problem.

It does bring up a good point though. IF (again, IF) someone like Scott were looking over this project, and looking for ways to get things moving, and time/cost were a factor, looking for something to cull from the To Do list might not be a terrible idea. Go over the numbers; if you have something only a few dozen or hundred backers are getting, maybe 5-10% or less, ask if it's not more valuable to just axe that part and work something out with those affected. Obviously anything in the Battle Cry (which affects the vast majority of the backers) is going to be exempt by raw numbers alone, but if the often mentioned resin bits are only going to a tiny portion of the backer base, it's realistic to at least ponder the time/resources required satisfying those more fringe cases.

And that's even fitting in Kickstarter's Terms of Use, or at least the current ones, which are realistic about projects needing to change, not working out exactly as intended, etc. 'It is regrettable that we're in this position, but removing X, Y, and Z portions of the campaign (which will affect ~_00 backers) allows us to shave A% off production and B months from the timeline. Backers affected will be offered an opportunity to change their add ons, or refunded their contribution for those specific items.'

Posts by Jeff/NMI are now showing in grey which indicates he is no longer part of the group. Since he doesn't have mod powers to ban people or delete their posts he probably got pissy over being called out and left.

I sort of wonder if it is because he was embarrassed by it, or because Cadice is making his beloved PB look bad there, or because he can't moderate the conversation.

In terms of the money... Here is NMI trying to protect the reputation of PB. It sort of implies that the money was all spent.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
Yeah I know that there's some designs like the Mac II that wouldn't be an issue but because they were bumped to part of wave two would unfortunately become collateral damage . If there's one thing Kevin is completely governed by it's paranoia about lawsuits, which could easily account for why everything has been on ice if he even caught the faintest idea there might be a legal issue. Don't have anything tangible to support this but if lack of money isn't the issue as PB claims, there has to be a major (& unannounced) issue to cause this all to ball up like this. It has to be something serious that threatens the entire project otherwise they'd be able to talk about it and all we get is spin or silence.

That's definitely a sound theory. And if I could accept Kevin as much smarter and less lazy than I think he is, I could totally buy in to that argument.

The argument against the money issue is that IIRC they've never actually said that. Despite repeated requests for a statement saying such, the only thing they have said is that it wasn't misappropriated for personal luxuries. They've not explicitly said that they have the money, and what they have said, doesn't exclude them misspending in other areas. For example, Kevin lamented that he had spent thousands of dollars advertising the 2013 release. That money shouldn't have (and to be fair, may not have been) spent using Kickstarter funds. Retail launch has nothing to do with the Kickstarter obligations. Similarly, speculated expenditure on retail Wave 1 isn't personal luxuries (misappropriation, just not a house or boat). The refusal to state they have the funds, and the weasel words to imply they do, is telling IMO.

Misappropriation definitely occurred - how do you think NG1 and NG2 magically got produced?

I would love to see a forensic accountant audit PB's books, with the specter of criminal charges lurking in the background.

Which when spending a big chunk of funds for retail stock for RRT is a "truth" of sorts when really the money is to be spent on the kickstarter items and rewards not retail.

 Forar wrote:
And that's even fitting in Kickstarter's Terms of Use, or at least the current ones, which are realistic about projects needing to change, not working out exactly as intended, etc. 'It is regrettable that we're in this position, but removing X, Y, and Z portions of the campaign (which will affect ~_00 backers) allows us to shave A% off production and B months from the timeline. Backers affected will be offered an opportunity to change their add ons, or refunded their contribution for those specific items.'

The first Kingdom Death : Monster KS did this when the Lantern Festival expansion was cancelled, and backers were refunded 100% of what they paid for it.

BoW thread: http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/news-rumors/forum/topic/robotech-rpg-tactics-aka-stop-hittingyourself-stop-hitting-yourself/

Article: https://withinthedungeon.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/robotech-rpg-tactics-game-of-quotes.html

I'd wager the next update could be from Jeff Ruiz and called-

I have no ass, but I must sit!

As I'm pretty sure Unca Kev chewed off whatever he had for this boner of a move on his part. Poor Jeff, first he got his ass handed to him, then Unca Kev bit it off. I've got my entertainment for the next few days. Go Team NMI!

Thanks for the blog plug ced1106!

So, I Pmed Ninja John last night on Facebook...

I have to say, what a nice guy... lol (seriously) Needless to say, I won't be posting the specifics of that conversation and they're wasn't really a lot to tell anyway, but unlike PB it's really obvious that he feels bad about the craptastic state of this Kickstarter. He even admitted that they could have handled the reward levels a little better for the campaign (I assume on the financially and shipping end), but didn't really go into that specifically. But I didn't get the impression that it was a plausible reason, that RRT shouldn't have been successful

Like a said, nice guy-

Fething Palladium Books!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Forar wrote:
And that's even fitting in Kickstarter's Terms of Use, or at least the current ones, which are realistic about projects needing to change, not working out exactly as intended, etc. 'It is regrettable that we're in this position, but removing X, Y, and Z portions of the campaign (which will affect ~_00 backers) allows us to shave A% off production and B months from the timeline. Backers affected will be offered an opportunity to change their add ons, or refunded their contribution for those specific items.'

The first Kingdom Death : Monster KS did this when the Lantern Festival expansion was cancelled, and backers were refunded 100% of what they paid for it.

Yeah, I heard about that. I wasn't a KD backer, but I've read through some of the updates, and in terms of 'massively successful campaign that takes waaaaay longer than anticipated', they seem to be among the gold standards for ongoing communication.

... or people might need to ask if some of those months of delays weren't based on them writing small novels for updates explaining why they were so late. :-P

Kidding aside, it was nice to find out that some companies can maintain a good relationship with their community of backers with quality updates. I really think some others (even companies I love, like FFP and Dwarven Forge) would do well to have an explicit, regular update policy, like Reaper does. Just pick a day of the month and use that. Nothing fancy, take a little progress and talk about it. Show off a piece of concept art or two, mention what's going on behind the scenes, check back in next month, it doesn't need to be a seven page essay.

And 100,000 here we go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Forar wrote:
And that's even fitting in Kickstarter's Terms of Use, or at least the current ones, which are realistic about projects needing to change, not working out exactly as intended, etc. 'It is regrettable that we're in this position, but removing X, Y, and Z portions of the campaign (which will affect ~_00 backers) allows us to shave A% off production and B months from the timeline. Backers affected will be offered an opportunity to change their add ons, or refunded their contribution for those specific items.'

The first Kingdom Death : Monster KS did this when the Lantern Festival expansion was cancelled, and backers were refunded 100% of what they paid for it.

Yeah, I heard about that. I wasn't a KD backer, but I've read through some of the updates, and in terms of 'massively successful campaign that takes waaaaay longer than anticipated', they seem to be among the gold standards for ongoing communication.

... or people might need to ask if some of those months of delays weren't based on them writing small novels for updates explaining why they were so late. :-P

Kidding aside, it was nice to find out that some companies can maintain a good relationship with their community of backers with quality updates. I really think some others (even companies I love, like FFP and Dwarven Forge) would do well to have an explicit, regular update policy, like Reaper does. Just pick a day of the month and use that. Nothing fancy, take a little progress and talk about it. Show off a piece of concept art or two, mention what's going on behind the scenes, check back in next month, it doesn't need to be a seven page essay.

KD:M 1 was massively successful because the end product was AMAZING beyond anyone's previous experience. Backers received a legit $400 game that looked every penny of those $400 over the $100 that they originally paid. Irregular communication was good enough because it was obvious that Adam was putting his everything into the game, and it showed in the sculpts and prototypes. There never was a doubt that Adam wouldn't deliver. We could see stuff that surprised and delighted, to the point that people (self included) were begging to order more at whatever price point Adam deemed fair. The sheer amazement of his substantial updates outweighed their lack of frequency.

Counterpoint would be SPM's weekly updates for Super Dungeon Explore: Legends, which have told us, and shown us precious little over the past year. Very much like Palladium, we usually get a weekly Update for the sake of doing an update. Except that SPM usually asks us to help develop the game for them.

 n815e wrote:

Posts by Jeff/NMI are now showing in grey which indicates he is no longer part of the group. Since he doesn't have mod powers to ban people or delete their posts he probably got pissy over being called out and left.

I sort of wonder if it is because he was embarrassed by it, or because Cadice is making his beloved PB look bad there, or because he can't moderate the conversation.

In terms of the money... Here is NMI trying to protect the reputation of PB. It sort of implies that the money was all spent.

Also, "all the funds from the KS were used for RRT" and "all the funds from the KS were used only for the KS" are not exactly equivalent, either.

 Albertorius wrote:


Also, "all the funds from the KS were used for RRT" and "all the funds from the KS were used only for the KS" are not exactly equivalent, either.

Does anyone actually think NMI knows any actual facts about the KS money? He only knows whatever BS Kevin's fed him.

Ignore NMI, he knows nothing. He couldn't identify Ninja John by name, that'll tell you how involved in the process he is/was. He has no access to real information because Kevin doesn't give out information, because he's legally paranoid (trademark, disclaimer, copyright, sign your non-disclosure on the way in, thank you very much).

 John Prins wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


Also, "all the funds from the KS were used for RRT" and "all the funds from the KS were used only for the KS" are not exactly equivalent, either.

Does anyone actually think NMI knows any actual facts about the KS money? He only knows whatever BS Kevin's fed him.

Ignore NMI, he knows nothing. He couldn't identify Ninja John by name, that'll tell you how involved in the process he is/was. He has no access to real information because Kevin doesn't give out information, because he's legally paranoid (trademark, disclaimer, copyright, sign your non-disclosure on the way in, thank you very much).

While you're probably right, I wouldn't be surprised if NMI was as familiar with the inner workings of PB as he claims, if not moreso. Only because he's been a fan-friend for a long time, puts in a LOT of hours for Kevin, seemingly unpaid, and from what others have let slip, people friendly to Kevin find out things they probably shouldn't. EDIT: Of course, that's through the filter of Kevin's word, but still.

It MIGHT just be the unpaid nature of the relationship (cause Kevin is cheap), but given the caustic nature of NMI, I'm thinking there's a small chance he's more integral than expected. Else any reasonable person (HA! Kevin! Reasonable!) in Kevin's position, would have dropped him years ago. I honestly can't remember the last time I read an NMI conversation where he didn't completely lose it, and start calling people out. I dunno. Maybe Kevin gets off on having his attack poodle go after "haterz", and that's the only reason he still has an (unpaid) job?

Morgan Vening wrote:
It MIGHT just be the unpaid nature of the relationship (cause Kevin is cheap), but given the caustic nature of NMI, I'm thinking there's a small chance he's more integral than expected. Else any reasonable person (HA! Kevin! Reasonable!) in Kevin's position, would have dropped him years ago. I honestly can't remember the last time I read an NMI conversation where he didn't completely lose it, and start calling people out. I dunno. Maybe Kevin gets off on having his attack poodle go after "haterz", and that's the only reason he still has an (unpaid) job?

I'm guessing Kevin figures NMI is unquestionably loyal, and keeps him around for that (and free labor). That's all some people seem to care about when it comes to employees.

 John Prins wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
It MIGHT just be the unpaid nature of the relationship (cause Kevin is cheap), but given the caustic nature of NMI, I'm thinking there's a small chance he's more integral than expected. Else any reasonable person (HA! Kevin! Reasonable!) in Kevin's position, would have dropped him years ago. I honestly can't remember the last time I read an NMI conversation where he didn't completely lose it, and start calling people out. I dunno. Maybe Kevin gets off on having his attack poodle go after "haterz", and that's the only reason he still has an (unpaid) job?

I'm guessing Kevin figures NMI is unquestionably loyal, and keeps him around for that (and free labor). That's all some people seem to care about when it comes to employees.

Yes. A few years back there was an online petition set up to oust NMI from his position due to abuse of power. Despite the amount of signatures it got or maybe because of it, Kevin's reply was basically "feth all of u, he's doing a wonderful job". To Kevin's thinking so many people complained that it must mean NMI is doing a good job.

Well it look like they reach 100,000 post on the RTT KS site. Oh another thing is I just check PB FB page and there is a page about Scott having a snack milk and cookies. I think they were showing off the Rift coffee mug. But in the upper left corner of the page it stated Bushy Creek Texas. So it confirm that Scott is from and live in Texas. I hope this help some people here asking about it. RTT WAVE 2 is not coming.

I actually believe that MOST of the funds were used for RRT.

I have some more proof, posted just today on the FB page.

OH MY GOSH!!! That a lot of pallets of RTT games

While I'm not one to shy away from slapping PB, I really only see two confirmed pallets of RRT. I don't doubt the others COULD be RRT, or that PB still have a crapload of existing stock, or that I can't think of another product PB would have that much of, given Kevin's glee at selling 120 Atlanteans at GenCon, but I can't read what's on the side of the boxes on the left or far right, and they don't look like the right shape to fit three cores into.

Could be wrong, but I'd rather not rush to judgement without a clearer image.

 John Prins wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
It MIGHT just be the unpaid nature of the relationship (cause Kevin is cheap), but given the caustic nature of NMI, I'm thinking there's a small chance he's more integral than expected. Else any reasonable person (HA! Kevin! Reasonable!) in Kevin's position, would have dropped him years ago. I honestly can't remember the last time I read an NMI conversation where he didn't completely lose it, and start calling people out. I dunno. Maybe Kevin gets off on having his attack poodle go after "haterz", and that's the only reason he still has an (unpaid) job?

I'm guessing Kevin figures NMI is unquestionably loyal, and keeps him around for that (and free labor). That's all some people seem to care about when it comes to employees.

Actually, knowing from experience, narcissists thrive on divisive behavior and controversy.
By people getting upset, he can say "You think I have bad behavior? Look at yours!".
Fantastic for "projection", claiming their own motives on others.
NMI is rather heavy handed and tends to misinterpret what people say and mean while feeling free to do whatever springs to mind at the time.
I remember that bit on the KS comments where he got people riled up and then commented "Sweet, sweet, apple pie."... it was oddly infuriating.
That was when a plague of bans happened shortly after on KS so he was literally trolling.
It is rather distressing coming across someone who likes to make discussions including their own disappear if it does not suit them, even for the most frivolous of reasons.
This seems to fall in step with Palladium Books marketing policy: "convenient forgetfulness" or "historical rewrite".

Morgan Vening wrote:
While I'm not one to shy away from slapping PB, I really only see two confirmed pallets of RRT. I don't doubt the others COULD be RRT, or that PB still have a crapload of existing stock, or that I can't think of another product PB would have that much of, given Kevin's glee at selling 120 Atlanteans at GenCon, but I can't read what's on the side of the boxes on the left or far right, and they don't look like the right shape to fit three cores into.

Could be wrong, but I'd rather not rush to judgement without a clearer image.

OK you could be right but still they could be small box sets. I did see core sets to the upper left in the rafter. Still that a lot of books if you right.

 Talizvar wrote:

This seems to fall in step with Palladium Books marketing policy: "convenient forgetfulness" or "historical rewrite".

Or, as I correctly summarized years ago, "STFU, peasant!".

Looks like the incriminating picture has been removed from PB's FB page

 fellowhoodlum wrote:
Looks like the incriminating picture has been removed from PB's FB page

Yeah.... that's in no way suspect if that's the case (can't check at work).

And of course, handled in a clumsy and hamfisted manner. It's like they don't understand screencaps are a thing.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 fellowhoodlum wrote:
Looks like the incriminating picture has been removed from PB's FB page

Yeah.... that's in no way suspect if that's the case (can't check at work).

And of course, handled in a clumsy and hamfisted manner. It's like they don't understand screencaps are a thing.

I read this post so went the RTT KS and it was posted their as well PB FB warehouse pic is gone. Well kat out of the bag now. I wonder where or who blew a nut about it. I save two picture of it. Later

I won't lie, this whole ordeal is an interesting thing to watch.
Big fan of giant mecha but was in the middle of a divorce when this hit Kickstarter. The divorce was good for something!

I kinda wish a bigger youtuber would cover this fiasco.

As it stands I myself just want to write a book about it. Even comparing it to videogame crowdfunding projects, this is in a high spot of screwups or scams.

 TalonZahn wrote:
I actually believe that MOST of the funds were used for RRT.

I have some more proof, posted just today on the FB page.

That's not Wave 2, though...

IIRC correctly we already knew from a previous picture that Palladium had overproduced RTT in the thousands (based on "Box #X of Y" for the starter box, which some back of the envelope math would show was 2-3 times the amount of boxed sets the backers ordered without counting add-ons. You'd have to rifle through the old updates to find it, though.

Kevin thought he could fund wave 2 on wave 1 sales. That's where a good portion of the money went. It was probably 2 more shipping containers than they needed to produce. And yes, the Northern Gun book timing is suspicious as heck.