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It isn't, actually.

Jefffar wrote:
You forgot, next year is a leap year, he'll be able to double his productivity.

Actually, the next one isn't until 2020.

So, we're still a ways off on that. Will probably still be waiting on quotes. But there'll be three more "This is the year for Robotech" announcements.

I don't go over to the gak pile that is the Palladium Forums.

Is RRT still boiling over in there?

Merijeek wrote:
I don't go over to the gak pile that is the Palladium Forums.

Is RRT still boiling over in there?

Did a quick check. There were about a half dozen or so posts over a couple of days about two weeks ago, trailing off on the 29th. One since, about a week ago by "wilycoyote". That's it.

That's why I'm thinking that from PB's perspective, not doing Wave 2 is the "smart" choice. As we know there appears to be little market for Wave 1 stuff, as evidenced by that pulled photo of the signing of Atlanteans showing craploads of stock remaining after 3 years at retail, and with very little apparent interest in the game itself, actually publishing Wave 2 is the "worst" choice for them.

Because as I see it, there are three options available.
- Declare a failure, and be required to issue refunds, in all likelihood leading to bankruptcy, or at least significant financial hardship.
- Publish Wave 2 to clear the obligation, easily costing several hundred thousand dollars, with not much chance of significant retail to offset.
- Keep kicking the can down the road, as they have done without consequence so far.

I'm pretty sure most backers would want Option 1 or 2, but from their side (morality issues aside), Option 3 is the only one that allows them to stay employed. Cause really, who on the staff looks like they're qualified to go elsewhere? Kevin's the only one who seems to actually do anything, and I don't think his ego could handle either the collapse of his company, or having to work for someone else. Cause that'd mean deadlines and accountability and working on one project at a time. Yeah, that doesn't sound like Kevin.

Doesn't help that they painted themselves into a corner with "Backers First". Cause it would have been easy to roll out a few items a year and release them to the public, to allow the profits there to help assist with the following product, but that time has passed. I think very few are under the illusion that the game can be revived now.

So we get the status quo. Kicking the can, passing the buck (you kinda know Scott is going to get bussed relatively soon*), doing their own thing, and kinda just hoping everything goes away.
* Wouldn't be surprised if it happened before CNY, would be surprised if it hasn't happened in the month after GenCon.

Oh come on. If they could produce individual kits they would. "Backers first" was strictly optional back when screwing backers actually mattered.

If the problem is a monetary one as others have alleged, releasing the kits one at a time would be a worse option as the shipping prices would explode.

It might be possible to fund 'wave 3' by manufacturing releasing the armoured and super valkyries (crusader / phoenix hawk LAM). Possible that the unseen fans would buy a fair few.

I suspect however that even this isn't doable for PB.

Jefffar wrote:
If the problem is a monetary one as others have alleged, releasing the kits one at a time would be a worse option as the shipping prices would explode.

Only if they shipped each fulfillment to backers immediately, which is not what I'm suggesting. That's what I meant regarding the "backers first" problem. If they hadn't made such a big deal of that, they could have done what FFP did with Shadows of Brimstone, and release to retail over several years a partial list of items. And then when they're at the point where they can release the remainder, they began sending to backers. It caused some backlash to FFP, but because FFP didn't make that initial promise (nor double down on it several times), and because a lot of people had trust in them due to showing SOME progress in the intervening years, they were able to get away with it without a massive revolt. It doesn't hurt that they haven't seemed to have denied a refund to anyone who wanted one.

Whereas PB significantly "rules lawyered" the truth, if not outright lied, about "backers first" in Wave 1, and haven't been particularly open about things in well over 4 years.

But Meri is probably right. If PB could do it, they probably would. The only reasons not to, are either they don't have the money, or they don't think the retail sales would be sufficient to warrant the exercise. Neither is a good position for the future of the game, and the future of fulfillment of the Kickstarter obligations.

Yeah, it is all pretty straight in my head:
- Little or no market, very much in PB's eyes.
- So throwing good money after bad, in their eyes, obligated or not.
- Kick the can down the road forever, as stated: it worked this long.
- IF for some reason they decide to give it a go, it would need to have EVERYTHING done since shipping is just too much not to consider.
- I would say, having the original money (spent or not) and doing a best effort, it could not be done now.
It really is insanely blatant lies at this point.

Plus with their 2021 deadline for likely retaining the Robotech license they have an out in a few years where they can just let the charade go.

It is as simple and as sraightforward as that, Kevin is simply not wiling to throw any of his money into RTt anymore to cover what now must be a shortfall- I am not alledging any financial fraud, but that over the last four years cost must have risen dramatically.

So, he is quite happy to sit there and tell Scott or whoever to post empty updates that he can use as proof of progress and so avoid the twin spectres of completion or failure/refunds.

what can we actually do? Virtually nothing as as it stands he has not broken any of his KS obligations - stretched yes, broken no.

It would seem our only recourse is to remain bitter towards PB and whenever possible try yo sabotage any of their future projects in the wider gaming world

If he can't fulfill AND if he can show where and how the money was spent - and it is legitimate - then he should just fess up and say 'sorry, no wave 2, no refunds and here's why'.

Dragging it out this long AND not just ending it makes people suspicious as hell, of course...

 Alpharius wrote:
If he can't fulfill AND if he can show where and how the money was spent - and it is legitimate - then he should just fess up and say 'sorry, no wave 2, no refunds and here's why'.
Dragging it out this long AND not just ending it makes people suspicious as hell, of course...

Spent money, or money he thinks should remain his until his "hands are tied" in 2021.
I suspect a wee bit of both (not enough money left to complete and not willing to give it up).

 Alpharius wrote:
If he can't fulfill AND if he can show where and how the money was spent - and it is legitimate - then he should just fess up and say 'sorry, no wave 2, no refunds and here's why'.

Dragging it out this long AND not just ending it makes people suspicious as hell, of course...

Can you find the likely flaw in your line of reasoning in your first sentence? Cause I can find the likely flaw in your line of reasoning in your first sentence.

The other reason is that there appears to be legally murky area, even if all the money is gone through legitimate expenses. While showing so clears PB of their Kickstarter requirements, it does not look like it clears PB of their debt to backers. While an earnest Creator might have people willing to forfeit their outstanding debt, the way PB have handled things, I can't see a significant number not doing so. And because this is tied to PB itself, rather than a seperate LLC, that means Kevin (or more accurately PB itself, but Kevin IS PB) is likely on the hook, and would have just openly admitted to failure.

Especially given that at some point before a significant portion of the money had gone, they would have had to have realize that they were financially incapable of completing the project. They know what Wave 1 cost, they ballpark knew what Wave 2 was going to cost (even without factoring inflationary costs). Meaning that as the core funds were being drained on "legitimate expenses", they were remaining adamant that they were still able to complete the project. Even if they didn't set out to defraud, it'd be easy as hell to argue that they were openly misrepresenting their financial standing, for months if not years. The refusal to issue refunds just exacerbates that. "No, you can't have your money back, we're spending it on expenses for the project despite knowing we can't complete the project."

That's why I think there's really no way out for PB, except kicking the can down the road indefinitely. And why the now hard and fast deadline of Q2 2021 is going to make things interesting.

Well yes, I did qualify my statement!

Talizvar brings up an interesting potential wrinkle though!

Wave 2 might now be figured out (HAVE to have some quotes back by now!) to cost, let's say...$500K.

But they 'only' have...$223K left.

Not enough to fulfill.

But PB doesn't want to give up on that sweet, sweet KS cash though - so they're stuck!

Best case scenario? Maybe?

Who knows.

Only thing that seems certain is that PB isn't telling anyone the real story - probably not even themselves.

 Alpharius wrote:
But they 'only' have...$223K left.

Too bad the entirety of that $223k is sitting in their warehouse as unsold RRT stock.

No, I mean beyond what they overspent on Wave 1 stuff, they 'only' have (x) cash left.

(x) being not enough to make Wave 2, but PB and KS just don't want to give it up.

It might just be the 'best case' scenario that would explain what's happening - or not happening - here.

Sorry, I was simply noting that PB has ZERO cash left, having spent it all on Wave 1 Retail production, in the hope of driving extra profits. Product which is now sitting unsold in their warehouse.

No, I know!

I'm just playing along with Talizvar's thought - that maybe there's some money left - but not enough to make Wave 2.

Yes, much of it is probably sitting there, stuck in over-bought Wave 1 stuff.

But PB doesn't want to give up that remaining cash - for some reason - and doesn't want to admit failure - and is hoping and praying for that miracle quote that will allow Wave 2 to happen...

...and waiting...

...and waiting...

The idea that Palladium didn't bet the house suggests a level of management and professionalism that is simply not consistent with anything they have ever done.

If they do have any cash left, I'm thinking that they stay in business from the interest earned on it and don't want to part ways with it.

 n815e wrote:
If they do have any cash left, I'm thinking that they stay in business from the interest earned on it and don't want to part ways with it.

if they can stay in business off interest earned on what is left from the KS, i'd like to know where they have the money as being generous and assuming they have say 500k left, 10% would only be 50k which theoretically wouldn't even be enough for payroll as that covers 1 or 2 people.

I wonder how much of the money's been spent on legal advice. Because I'm pretty sure Kev wouldn't have any problem spending the KS money on legal advice relating to the Kickstarter itself.

This is a company that literally doesn’t make enough money to keep its lights on, where selling 150 packs of playing cards is considered a major product success and employees are rumored to go without pay for periods out of the year.
This is a company that has taken to begging its customers for donations to stay open.
In that context, $50k a year must be really hard to let go of.

 John Prins wrote:
I wonder how much of the money's been spent on legal advice. Because I'm pretty sure Kev wouldn't have any problem spending the KS money on legal advice relating to the Kickstarter itself.

Kevin's "legal advice" is nothing more than a night law class at a community college that he audited. He nor his company make enough money to keep a lawyer on retainer. Like everything else, he's winging it - badly.

Who needs lawyers? The Kickstarter rules look like they give backers protection but when you actually read them they are heavily slanted towards the producers who simply have to show a tiniest amount of working on a project to keep holding to funds for basically as long as they like.

The crappy part is that even Scott's update on the resin bases and the fact they are now reaching out to the sculptor again is basically evidence of workig on the project if not actual progress.

Kevin knows he cannot afford wave 2 and he also knows he cannot pay the backers any refunds, so short of a miracle jump in retail sales of the wave one stock, he has decided to sit tight, sell the odd rpg book and basically tell us backers to STFU you are getting nothing else from me

Well it looks like their 50 % off sale of all stuff Robotech kind of suck me in .Cheap is the word I 'll say. I couldn't resist the sale. All the Con minis are $11.00 but the Breetai $8.95 I think I'am not sure on that one. The their Rpg books are cheap as well. Cheaper then e-bay and Mini Market as well. Oh well I 'am sucker for cheap sales even when I hate PB. I wonder if they are to blow out all of their Con minis in this sale? You know I think if PB is smart which they are not. They keep this sale going to the end of the year. The core set is cheapest seen compare everywhere I look online $49.99 or $49.95. Well we shall see what happen. Later

DEZOAT wrote:
Well it looks like their 50 % off sale of all stuff Robotech kind of suck me in .Cheap is the word I 'll say. I couldn't resist the sale. All the Con minis are $11.00 but the Breetai $8.95 I think I'am not sure on that one. The their Rpg books are cheap as well. Cheaper then e-bay and Mini Market as well. Oh well I 'am sucker for cheap sales even when I hate PB. I wonder if they are to blow out all of their Con minis in this sale? You know I think if PB is smart which they are not. They keep this sale going to the end of the year. The core set is cheapest seen compare everywhere I look online $49.99 or $49.95. Well we shall see what happen. Later

What did you end up with, and how exorbitant was shipping? Cause I checked it out a couple years back, and they were significantly (like +50%) above what USPS was offering.

Morgan Vening wrote:

DEZOAT wrote:
Well it looks like their 50 % off sale of all stuff Robotech kind of suck me in .Cheap is the word I 'll say. I couldn't resist the sale. All the Con minis are $11.00 but the Breetai $8.95 I think I'am not sure on that one. The their Rpg books are cheap as well. Cheaper then e-bay and Mini Market as well. Oh well I 'am sucker for cheap sales even when I hate PB. I wonder if they are to blow out all of their Con minis in this sale? You know I think if PB is smart which they are not. They keep this sale going to the end of the year. The core set is cheapest seen compare everywhere I look online $49.99 or $49.95. Well we shall see what happen. Later

What did you end up with, and how exorbitant was shipping? Cause I checked it out a couple years back, and they were significantly (like +50%) above what USPS was offering.

Well I couldn't help myself Morgan but the shipping for me was 13.65 with UPS which funny because I'm only about 1 1/2 hour drive PB Warehouse from my house. I order 4 gerwalk 3 MPA 2 Max and some of the books to complete the collection what hell. I need some help guys.Oh well. P.S. what bad is pay less then paid in 2015 when brought 2 of each of the Con minis , Oh the Breetai mini is $11.00 like the rest of the Con minis.

DEZOAT wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
What did you end up with, and how exorbitant was shipping? Cause I checked it out a couple years back, and they were significantly (like +50%) above what USPS was offering.

Well I couldn't help myself Morgan but the shipping for me was 13.65 with UPS which funny because I'm only about 1 1/2 hour drive PB Warehouse from my house. I order 4 gerwalk 3 MPA 2 Max and some of the books to complete the collection what hell. I need some help guys.Oh well. P.S. what bad is pay less then paid in 2015 when brought 2 of each of the Con minis , Oh the Breetai mini is $11.00 like the rest of the Con minis.

That shipping isn't that ridiculous. Though being an American shipment, it seems less ridiculous.

Wait, what? The Consclusives were at half price too? That's never happened before. Every previous sale has excluded them from discount. And given these don't appear to be restockable, that seems to be a desperate move. The FPA has been "out of print" since at LEAST the opening to everybody, November last year, if not earlier. And with the apparent souring of relations with GHQ, I can't see that changing.

Ironically, it looks like it was almost MSRP for you to have bought your MPA formation as metal, rather than "wait" for the plastics.An expected $32.95MSRP vs the $33 you paid. You overpaid a nickel, to get it "early".

Yes, I'm being facetious by suggesting that MPA will ever be produced in plastic. Cause that's as likely to happen as PB not raising MSRP for *reasons* if the plastics ever were produced. Because nothing would kill a relaunch faster than by jacking up prices. It'd be the most stupid thing PB could do to sabotage themselves. Therefore, it's their most likely cause of action.