Robotech® RPG Tactics™-License lost, the end is near!

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**Alpharius**

Update!

Apparently PB wrote this in a campaign update, maybe?

In an earlier update to the campaign, Palladium wrote “By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that…. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.”

Can anyone track that down?

It would be VERY helpful for all involved...

**Forar**

Lynx7725 wrote:
They had at least 2 containers of nothing but starter boxes. Eh. Just go and measure a starter box, and then start filling an imaginary 20"x8"x8" box with them. That's if they didn't ship by 40" containers.

According to Amazon, a core box seems to be about 1' x 1' by 0.5', give or take a little.

A 20x8x8 container should have a rough internal volume of 1,280 cubic feet. Now, between pallets and extra layers or whatever, obviously they aren't going to fit them all perfectly in there with microns to spare, but that means (to my amateur eye) they should have been getting at least 2k boxes per container.

Which seems like massive overkill for the 6-7k boxes backers have been estimated to have paid for. But for 12k+ that people have estimated based on pictures at their warehouse and box numbering, I could see doing 6 containers of those alone, especially if they were rushing to get a mostly full set out into shipping, rather than waiting to be totally full. Add in another 7k+ 'extras baggies' and that seems like it'd basically come to 9, give or take.

Though I wonder how things would have changed up if they went with 40's, as you have mentioned.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:
Update!

Apparently PB wrote this in a campaign update, maybe?

In an earlier update to the campaign, Palladium wrote “By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that…. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.”

Can anyone track that down?

It would be VERY helpful for all involved...

I think that quote saying it's in an update is just wrong/lazy journalism.

That has been quoted (verbatim) plenty of times as a copy/paste response to backers asking for refunds over the years, but I'm not sure it was ever said in an actual update.

**judgedoug**

Forar wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
Update!

Apparently PB wrote this in a campaign update, maybe?

In an earlier update to the campaign, Palladium wrote “By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that…. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.”

Can anyone track that down?

It would be VERY helpful for all involved...

I think that quote saying it's in an update is just wrong/lazy journalism.

That has been quoted (verbatim) plenty of times as a copy/paste response to backers asking for refunds over the years, but I'm not sure it was ever said in an actual update.

I need screenshots of Palladium saying this to people. If anyone has a screenshot, please post it. It will become vital to ANYONE filing a fraud case through their credit card company against Palladium.
It is the evidence that, for example, Discover needs to show that they were once in compliance with KS-TOU and then are now in violation. The hook is that the promise of refunds is the intention to produce product paid for or to refund for product not received. This is vital.

**Forar**

Lynx7725 wrote:
Heh, ok. Most of the hero stuff are likely going to be decal/ repaint/ resin drop-in or some such, so I just lumped them together (FPA, Khyron Glaug. The hero VT in particular are likely to reuse the existing VFs. I wasn't too sure if some of the experimental fighters would be resin or plastic, so I just went with resin; I did forget to triple the Supers though.

Still, if we went with your count, they still lowered their production quotes. That's just strange.

Oh, that was my point. It's not that they planned to do the same work with less money, as your post noted. It's that they planned to do twice as much work with less money! I was emphasizing the scope/scale of what they were claiming. Couldn't do much more than a dozen figures and some work towards wave 2 with 1.5m or so, but surely 2 dozen figures plus resin bits will be done for under a million! No problem!

I'd expect resin to be done in the States, not in China. Resin production in States is fairly well developed, and would be cheaper to procure that way.

EDIT: We were both updating our posts so I missed some things. Thing is, there's nothing wrong with getting more stock to support the game, but the funding is the issue. From the way PB is talking, I don't think they are differentiating KS funds from retail stock funds, i.e., they are dipping whole forearms into the KS funds to buy retail stock for Wave 1. That just accelerated them into pits, but is also something observable over the years from PB -- their accounting practices just sucks.

Oh, I'm sure resin would be done in the US. It still needed to be done. Aside from the last minute work a few months ago that we saw on the bases and objectives, the resin stuff had basically been quietly ignored for years by them. I think the prototype SDF-1 a couple of years back was possibly the only noteworthy effort they made in that direction since the campaign closed.

And I agree. Morgan and I have been over this a dozen times over the years. If their manufacturer said that they could leverage economy of scale, and get 7,000 boxes for X, and 12,000 boxes for 1.5 X, and they paid the difference (or whatever, basically, KS funds covered the initial and they pitched in PB money to get more boxes at a better price), yeah, whatever, I'm sure plenty of companies do that. It's the assumption that they presumably paid the 1.5 X in full with KS money and expected to pocket the profits, which would be utter bullgak.

**Alpharius**

Forar wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
Update!

Apparently PB wrote this in a campaign update, maybe?

In an earlier update to the campaign, Palladium wrote “By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that…. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.”

Can anyone track that down?

It would be VERY helpful for all involved...

I think that quote saying it's in an update is just wrong/lazy journalism.

That has been quoted (verbatim) plenty of times as a copy/paste response to backers asking for refunds over the years, but I'm not sure it was ever said in an actual update.

That's too bad, because it would be fantastic if it was out there in a 'published' campaign update too.

Someone could check, but there are a lot of updates to go through.

Probably worth the effort, but possibly quite disappointing too if it doesn't exist in one.

**Forar**

Okay, based on some shenanigans, the Kickstarter page is now showing in... possibly Japanese.

Now Chrome is screwing with me too.

Edit: fixed it, must've managed to misclick something along the way.

**Lynx7725**

Forar wrote:

A 40x8x8 container should have a rough internal volume of 1,280 cubic feet. Now, between pallets and extra layers or whatever, obviously they aren't going to fit them all perfectly in there with microns to spare, but that means (to my amateur eye) they should have been getting at least 2k boxes per container.

Which seems like massive overkill for the 6-7k boxes backers have been estimated to have paid for. But for 12k+ that people have estimated based on pictures at their warehouse and box numbering, I could see doing 6 containers of those alone, especially if they were rushing to get a mostly full set out into shipping, rather than waiting to be totally full. Add in another 7k+ 'extras baggies' and that seems like it'd basically come to 9, give or take.

Though I wonder how things would have changed up if they went with 40's, as you have mentioned.

I'd more or less agree with you. Roughly, for estimated KS needs, 3 containers of Starters, probably 1 or 2 containers of other boxes, should be sufficient. The Destroid boxes, for example, were much smaller than the starter box. They would ship full containers, really, because in sea shipping it's cheaper generally to fill a full container than to share. So, KS shipping likely would total out to be around $40k or so. My guess is that we would see a clear reduction in Manufacturing costs that way too.

Of course PB should lay in a stock for retail support, but that shouldn't come out from KS funds. At best, some of the retail stock can come from any minimum orders that the manufacturer requires, and the rest should be funded from other sources. The minute PB decided to count the retail stock cost into KS funds is when it went south -- and the way they are presenting the current accounting hints heavily at non-segregation of accounts. Honestly, not surprising coming from PB.

It's a new game and starting out. You don't want to overstock because in retail, dead stock is horrible. One or two container load extra, spread amongst starter and unit boxes, should have been sufficient. Basically, I think the inexperience of PB in managing a supply chain for boardgaming/ miniature gaming shows here.

**Alpharius**

This now looks to be getting mailed to people:

Please note:

1. As we had hoped would be understood, our offer
of additional Wave One rewards to our RRT
Kickstarter backers is in lieu of any additional
compensation from Palladium, which Palladium is
simply not in a position to offer. By accepting
our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to
relinquish and waive any additional claims you
may have against Palladium with regard to the
Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the
Kickstarter campaign. A Notice will be inserted
with the shipment of your Wave One rewards
stating that your acceptance of the rewards
package waives any additional claims you may have.

**Forar**

I'm not a lawyer, but based on things I've read, that seems... dubious. Or at least, like something that could be challenged.

Especially if they were later proven to be negligent or have misled people.

But I'll leave that to the law talking folks.

**Morgan Vening**

judgedoug wrote:
I need screenshots of Palladium saying this to people. If anyone has a screenshot, please post it. It will become vital to ANYONE filing a fraud case through their credit card company against Palladium.
It is the evidence that, for example, Discover needs to show that they were once in compliance with KS-TOU and then are now in violation. The hook is that the promise of refunds is the intention to produce product paid for or to refund for product not received. This is vital.

Here's mine. Spoilered for physical size, more than the 139KB of the image.

Spoiler:

And in case people were wondering, PB have started issuing responses.

Thank you for reaching out to us with your inquiry. We have reviewed your RRT Pledge# ******* in BackerKit and determined your Remaining Reward Value is $31.76 for RRT Wave Two rewards so that you can select Wave One rewards at the original Kickstarter campaign pricing.

Once you select your Wave One rewards that you would like to receive and confirm your current shipping address, we can pull them and calculate the cost of shipping for you. If this is what you would like to do, part of your Remaining Reward Value of $31.76 can also be applied towards RRT Exclusives at $22.00 USD each, with a maximum of 1 RRT Exclusives based on your Remaining Pledge Value.
Please note:

1. As we had hoped would be understood, our offer of additional Wave One rewards to our RRT Kickstarter backers is in lieu of any additional compensation from Palladium, which Palladium is simply not in a position to offer. By accepting our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to relinquish and waive any additional claims you may have against Palladium with regard to the Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the Kickstarter campaign. A Notice will be inserted with the shipment of your Wave One rewards stating that your acceptance of the rewards package waives any additional claims you may have.

2. The Battle Cry, Showdown, and Reckless reward bundles are NOT available for selection.

Please utilize one of the following methods to pay for shipping:

A. By phone at 734-721-2903 and provide us with your credit card info*

* Full name as it reads on the credit card.
* Credit card number.
* Expiration date.
* Three digit security code on the back of the credit card.

B. Send a PayPal payment to
paypal@palladiumbooks.com, then let us know you have sent payment.

After we have received payment for shipping, we will ship your rewards and you will receive an email with a tracking number for the package.

Sincerely,

RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

I underlined the pertinent juicy bits.

EDIT: Oh, Bite me, Alphy. I was formatting! You ninja'd me!

**Lynx7725**

Alpharius wrote:
This now looks to be getting mailed to people:

*Flips PB middle finger*

Y'know, I don't think Kevin would ever understand... it's not about the money. Every monkey could tell the odds of Wave 2 appearing was near zero.

It's that PB had led the backers around for years, and then still made a blatant last ditch attempt to gouge more money out with going-to-be-dead Wave 1 items. The only recourse backers have at this point is to hurt PB where it would hurt most - the bottomline.

**judgedoug**

By accepting our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to relinquish and waive any additional claims you may have against Palladium with regard to the Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the Kickstarter campaign. A Notice will be inserted with the shipment of your Wave One rewards stating that your acceptance of the rewards package waives any additional claims you may have.

DO NOT ACCEPT THE OFFER FROM PALLADIUM. They are attempting to head off what certainly will amount to either the FTC destroying them from hundreds/thousands of fraud investigations from credit card companies; from various state attorney generals; and from possibly civil or class action lawsuits. REMEMBER there is precedent for this!!! https://www.polygon.com/2015/9/11/9310945/kickstarter-court-victory-attorney-general-washington-asylum-playing-cards

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgan Vening wrote:
judgedoug wrote:
I need screenshots of Palladium saying this to people. If anyone has a screenshot, please post it. It will become vital to ANYONE filing a fraud case through their credit card company against Palladium.
It is the evidence that, for example, Discover needs to show that they were once in compliance with KS-TOU and then are now in violation. The hook is that the promise of refunds is the intention to produce product paid for or to refund for product not received. This is vital.

Here's mine. Spoilered for physical size, more than the 139KB of the image.

Spoiler:

THAAAAANNKKK YOUUUU

I need more screenshots from people where Palladium had said that they would provide refunds.

**Alpharius**

PB *seems* to be hinting at a 'get your compensation this way, or get nothing, sorry!' - of course, that opinion probably won't match up with the reality of this situation.

Especially with the absolutely ridiculous time-frame of all of this.

And those pesky Kickstarter rules and such...

**deleted20250424**

Copy/Pasted that to the KS Comments section

**n815e**

I smile when I imagine the look on Kevin's face when he was told that HG would not be renewing the license.

**Morgan Vening**

TalonZahn wrote:
Copy/Pasted that to the KS Comments section

Psst. That's where it came from. At least where I got it. Context makes me think that's where Alpharius got it too.

**deleted20250424**

Well, any warning cannot be spammed enough!

**JohnHwangDD**

PB is counting on backers being willing to take pennies worth of pre-liquidation overstock on the dollar.

It's legal offer, and it can work for those who want something now, rather than to roll the dice on refunds / lawsuit.

However, based on the notice, it appears that PB has engaged a lawyer to craft the "hold harmless" language.

I wonder if they're still ducking service.

**Alpharius**

Morgan Vening wrote:
TalonZahn wrote:
Copy/Pasted that to the KS Comments section

Psst. That's where it came from. At least where I got it. Context makes me think that's where Alpharius got it too.

Yes, totally!

But still, yes, post it and set it as a warning to all.

Some may actually want more of this stock from PB - and pay more to have it delivered to them too - but some may not, or be unaware of certain things.

**Forar**

Hrm. I might just have to have a long and exasperating talk with Visa at some point this weekend.

Backers threatening legal Tsunamis and other bullgak might not have gone anywhere (at least, not yet), but major credit cards hitting up Kickstarter or Palladium might get someones attention.

**deleted20250424**

Just like Paypal requires a user, a business also must have a bank account attached. Same with businesses and Amazon.

I know, because I run on both platforms as an individual and business.

They will tap my bank account, as I have anecdoted before against others, and they give NO gaks of the status of funds in that attached account.

These companies make Billions in NET income. Palladium stands ZERO chance against them. What lawyer can Kevin hire to fight a team of lawyers from Visa, Paypal, Discover, etc....

If someone threatens you with a hammer, get someone with a bigger hammer.

**evancich**

Lawyer here...

Interesting. Look up Barnett and consent.

So, PB says switch out wave 2 for wave 1 junk and pay us shipping. And if you make that deal, unbeknownst to you, you get an "auto-accept" T&C in the mail.

In the great state of MD, that is a criminal offense.

If that email is correct, it is 100% not enforceable and in MD and DC it is illegal.

I can't say: "Hey, I'm mailing you a letter". When you get it and open it, it says "Got you! You owe me $1B by opening this letter".

In order to LEGALLY enter into an agreement, both parties:
1) Have to know the terms
2) Agree upon the terms (or have a judge force the agreement) via positive action

Hmmmm...This is a pretty stupid move by PB. This is like really, really dumb. Pro-consumer states like CA and MA will eat them for lunch.

Maybe they are already going out of business and want to attempt to shield.

**Swabby**

Does anyone have a breakdown of the retail value of the wave two models that are owed for the various tiers?

I kind of recall Forar keeping a list of models owed or something in the past. But that is 5 years of memories dusty.

**evancich**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
PB is counting on backers being willing to take pennies worth of pre-liquidation overstock on the dollar.

It's legal offer, and it can work for those who want something now, rather than to roll the dice on refunds / lawsuit.

However, based on the notice, it appears that PB has engaged a lawyer to craft the "hold harmless" language.

I wonder if they're still ducking service.

It is not a legal offer. I can't make you consent to something that you are unaware of, legally.

When you install new SW, they show you the T&Cs and you read them, of course (lulz), but you click the "I accept" button.

Let me frame this in a different way. You are reading this now, and hence you are aware. So, if you reply to this or quote it you owe me $100B within 30 days and you accept binding arbitration en lieu of any other legal instruments.

I'm gonna sit back and let my billions roll in.

**Forar**

Swabby wrote:
Does anyone have a breakdown of the retail value of the wave two models that are owed for the various tiers?

I kind of recall Forar keeping a list of models owed or something in the past. But that is 5 years of memories dusty.

Luckily, most of the tiers were just "a Battle Cry, but more of them".

A BC is missing;

- 1 Rick Exclusive (3 models)
- 1 Roy Exclusive (3 models)
- 1 Khyron Exclusive
- 1 Miriya Exclusive

- 3 Gnerls
- 3 MPA
- 2 Super VTs (all 3 modes, so 6 models here)
- 3 FPA
- 2 Lancers
- 2 Ghosts

27 models, plus any other wave two stuff bought as an add on. But a Showdown is just that list x2, and a Reckless is just that list x4.

Edit: and if they used regular VT Fighter and Guardian modes for the Rick/Roy exclusives, it's 27 models, but only 23 new ones. I forgot to hunt this down when replying earlier, but it's in their comments, the exclusives were supposed to be in the same plastic as the rest of the line. Yes, it'd be sensible to do limited run figures in resin, but they said it at the time, so that's not our problem.

**evancich**

Does anybody have any idea on where the $37.02 (or whatever it is) "value" left over from the Battle Cry level came from?

Seems to me that if a con exclusive is worth $22

Shouldn't the Rick and Roy be at least $44?

Is there some calculation that I don't follow, like 2k core boxes left and enough in lost wave 2 to trade that in for the core sets?

**JohnHwangDD**

If they tell you that accepting the offer includes a "hold harmless", then you've gotten notice, and they're just including hardcopy in the box. The acceptance of the waiver occurred when the backer confirmed they want Wave 1 in lieu of anything else.

**Morgan Vening**

evancich wrote:
Lawyer here...

Interesting. Look up Barnett and consent.

So, PB says switch out wave 2 for wave 1 junk and pay us shipping. And if you make that deal, unbeknownst to you, you get an "auto-accept" T&C in the mail.

In the great state of MD, that is a criminal offense.

If that email is correct, it is 100% not enforceable and in MD and DC it is illegal.

I can't say: "Hey, I'm mailing you a letter". When you get it and open it, it says "Got you! You owe me $1B by opening this letter".

In order to LEGALLY enter into an agreement, both parties:
1) Have to know the terms
2) Agree upon the terms (or have a judge force the agreement) via positive action

Hmmmm...This is a pretty stupid move by PB. This is like really, really dumb. Pro-consumer states like CA and MA will eat them for lunch.

Maybe they are already going out of business and want to attempt to shield.

Not the first time that PB have done this kind of gak (though it is the most egregious from a nutkick-to-the-backers perspective).

When they shifted to auto-signing everyone up to their PBWU, it might have been fine in Michigan, but in many other states, and other countries (like mine), it's illegal to do so without consent.

PB don't seem to even consider their actions as potentially being illegal. It's an ongoing thing, and that's why I am of the firm belief that they've stepped on their dicks with regard how the Kickstarter funds were spent.

**evancich**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
If they tell you that accepting the offer includes a "hold harmless", then you've gotten notice, and they're just including hardcopy in the box. The acceptance of the waiver occurred when the backer confirmed they want Wave 1 in lieu of anything else.

In the great state of MD, that is not only is not legally binding, it is criminal.

In many places, if you make an offer, all of the T&Cs have to be upfront.

Again, in MD (CA, MA, NY {off the top of my head}), I cannot LEGALLY make you offer A and after you accept make you offer A+1.

I'd have to really think about it, but what PB is doing might qualify as extortion in MD. Take this offer or get nothing. Oh after you take the offer, you also agree to XYZ that you didn't know about.

**Talizvar**

Forar wrote:
Hrm. I might just have to have a long and exasperating talk with Visa at some point this weekend.
Backers threatening legal Tsunamis and other bullgak might not have gone anywhere (at least, not yet), but major credit cards hitting up Kickstarter or Palladium might get someones attention.

Looks like I will need to do the same.
I had sent a big package to "consumer@ontario.ca" back in 2015 so it only needs an update on recent developments.
Request for refund.
Filing with the BBB.
Kevin sending me a couple letters telling me I have no right to refund and they anticipate sending wave 2 as promised (I think prior text said I had no rights and it was an "investment").
Anyway, a definitive answer now can make a case for Visa to take their money back.
The costing "list" makes the value to take back a rather clear matter.
Agreed that the initial thought on trading for stock is not near as nice as having them keep their stock AND bill them for what is owed.
It gives a rather warm and fuzzy feeling.

Anyone lodging a claim with Visa, please let me know a contact or something and that should help their case.
My data may help your claim.
Anything I get back from Visa would then invalidate any claim I may have for a court case BUT the data I received is still useful as evidence.