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Again lawyer here...

In order for this to be "legal (whatever that means)", PB has to state up front that if you take this deal you wave these rights.

They did not do that in update 218 (or whatever).

So, if I accepted the offer. They cannot legally alter the agreement without me also being able to alter the agreement.

In other words, you can take the wave 1 stuff and just say, no I do not agree to the "harmless (not a legal term)" part, but I still want my wave 1 stuff.

That is another thing of note.

If you DO get stuff back from ANY CC company, I would share their findings with the various groups.

If Discover says they uncovered XYZ during their investigation, I'm sure an attorney would like to have that information also.

Dude, all they need to do is print and include this:

By accepting our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to relinquish and waive any additional claims you may have against Palladium with regard to the Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the Kickstarter campaign.

That's what they said as part of the follow-up email to each backer, so that's what it should say on the notice.

Then, if someone pushes for more, they quash it based on the waiver that was accepted.

And BTW, the money is all gone.

I don't want to see PB go out of business. Some folks seem to enjoy Rifts (or whatever) so let them enjoy that.

I'd like an accounting from Kevin, but that won't happen sans lawsuit.

What is starting to bug me is PB will have to destroy the core boxes. Why doesn't PB just give all of those to schools and foster wargamming and model building rather than "sell" them or throw them away.


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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Dude, all they need to do is print and include this:

By accepting our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to relinquish and waive any additional claims you may have against Palladium with regard to the Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the Kickstarter campaign.

That's what they said as part of the follow-up email to each backer, so that's what it should say on the notice.

Then, if someone pushes for more, they quash it based on the waiver that was accepted.

I don't know how else to explain it to you. But, the law simply does not work that way.

In that update from the other night, PB set expectations at X

In the follow up email, they are changing the deal. X+1

Great, now I have the same ability to change the deal. And I'll change it to be X-5 and send you a similar letter.

That is just how it works.

The email supersedes the Update, obviously. The deal isn't concluded until both parties accept, and fine print is everywhere. If you wanted to push it, you would absolutely lose.

Anyhow, I'm done explaining the obvious to a self-proclaimed lawyer who doesn't understand reality. Good luck.

So, I just went through the prices (campaign upgrade pricing) on the battlecry. Here is the breakdown:

1x Rick Hunter ($15)
1x Roy Fokker ($15)
1x Miriya ($15)
3x Gnerl Fighters ($15)
3x Nousjadeur-Ger ($20)
2x Super Valkyries ($35)
3x Queadluun-Rau FPA ($30)
2x SF-3 Lancer II ($10, half value of box of 4)
2x QF-3000 Ghost Drone ($10, half value box of 4)

Total retail: $165

How the hell this gets boiled down to $31 is beyond me.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The email supersedes the Update, obviously. The deal isn't concluded until both parties accept, and fine print is everywhere. If you wanted to push it, you would absolutely lose.

Anyhow, I'm done explaining the obvious to a self-proclaimed lawyer who doesn't understand reality. Good luck.

It doesn't.

Anyway, I contacted a bunch of "blogs" and https://kotaku.com/ will write a story about this.

They're clearly representing it as some portion of the value in a battlecry. Like, we paid $140 for basically 2 core boxes worth and then a big pile of other stuff on top of that (the initial offering wasn't 2 cores, but aside from Destroid swapping, it's basically 2 cores plus wave 2 stuff).

So, one could work out the amount we paid for a Battle Cry, compare it to the cost of buying that stuff separately, add in the wave 2 stuff, and work out a proportional amount remaining of that original deal.

I'd put us closer to 1/3 than 1/4 like they have, based on the number of figures and their relative value (a box of FPA is more expensive than a box of VTs), but it's quibbling over dollars either way.

I once worked out a spreadsheet for this, I'll have to go looking for it after my date or maybe over the weekend.

Credit card company looks like no muss no fuss.
We get a refund even if Palladium Books does not have the money.
Someone with deep pockets go after them to collect.
They can affect their sales since people pay with credit cards.
Now things are rather clear, this should work out rather nice.
I may even send chocolates and flowers to whomever processes my claim.
As a sign of appreciation only.

So many choices, could it be possible a suitably painful form of closure can be achieved?

Somebody did the breakdown of PB sales based off a print run of 300 to 600 books (or something like that). Are they really making $9k a month and if so how many employees do they have?

$9k/month doesn't go very far with a few people

evancich wrote:
Somebody did the breakdown of PB sales based off a print run of 300 to 600 books (or something like that). Are they really making $9k a month and if so how many employees do they have?

$9k/month doesn't go very far with a few people

according to their website, they have 7 staffs including Kev'. with 9k/month they can't run the company. even with minimum wage...
when I was in gaming retail, we had a small store and 15k a month was needed to break even. obviously the staff were cheaply paid at that time and that was 15 years ago
my guess is that they have been running on fumes for the past decade... the KS just help them to breath a bit more of the fumes. According to they own website, Robotech is one of their main cash cow now that is gone and with litigation on its way, they better hard discount stuff at Adepticon real fast...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The email supersedes the Update, obviously. The deal isn't concluded until both parties accept, and fine print is everywhere. If you wanted to push it, you would absolutely lose.

Anyhow, I'm done explaining the obvious to a self-proclaimed lawyer who doesn't understand reality. Good luck.

This is the same "lawyer" that claimed a lawsuit would be thrown out of court because it is over toys.
The same "lawyer" that wrote that Kevin could bring to court an untranslated Chinese document and win by claiming it is proof of manufacturing.

So do you think it is unfair to expect an equal dollar amount of wave 1 product for the amount of wave 2 stretch goals and add ons owed as part of this exchange deal?

This arbitrary amount they came up with seems very strange to me.

 n815e wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The email supersedes the Update, obviously. The deal isn't concluded until both parties accept, and fine print is everywhere. If you wanted to push it, you would absolutely lose.

Anyhow, I'm done explaining the obvious to a self-proclaimed lawyer who doesn't understand reality. Good luck.

This is the same "lawyer" that claimed a lawsuit would be thrown out of court because it is over toys.
The same "lawyer" that wrote that Kevin could bring to court an untranslated Chinese document and win by claiming it is proof of manufacturing.

Neither of those statements are true


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 jul wrote:

evancich wrote:
Somebody did the breakdown of PB sales based off a print run of 300 to 600 books (or something like that). Are they really making $9k a month and if so how many employees do they have?

$9k/month doesn't go very far with a few people

according to their website, they have 7 staffs including Kev'. with 9k/month they can't run the company. even with minimum wage...
when I was in gaming retail, we had a small store and 15k a month was needed to break even. obviously the staff were cheaply paid at that time and that was 15 years ago
my guess is that they have been running on fumes for the past decade... the KS just help them to breath a bit more of the fumes. According to they own website, Robotech is one of their main cash cow now that is gone and with litigation on its way, they better hard discount stuff at Adepticon real fast...

9k / month doesn’t go very far, which is why I didn’t understand the 300 to 600 books a month. If you are making $9k / month, $1.4M is a crazy amount

 Swabby wrote:
Does anyone have a breakdown of the retail value of the wave two models that are owed for the various tiers?

I kind of recall Forar keeping a list of models owed or something in the past. But that is 5 years of memories dusty.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gmwLLs9LKOcKo-chGNdPaf6rHCKzpmSn1iXE28rYLh0/edit?usp=sharing

My maths don't seem to match with what PB claims though.

 Swabby wrote:
So do you think it is unfair to expect an equal dollar amount of wave 1 product for the amount of wave 2 stretch goals and add ons owed as part of this exchange deal?

This arbitrary amount they came up with seems very strange to me.

Agreed. Especially since Showdown (literally 2x Battlecry) is below 2x of the Battlecry "refund". Okay, we can prorate it, since 2x Battlecry would be $280, and Showdown is only $260. But then it should be $58.98. not $52.94. And, by same logic, Reckless should be $117.96, not $105.88. No idea where the hell their numbers are coming from.

Man, finding which credit card I used at the time is going to be a bitch....

For those who are trying a charge back, are you doing the full amount?

I found the card I used and the amount charged but the card isn't open anymore, I closed it a couple years ago.

I know there was some screwing around with the pledge manager and all that. Can you tell me the month it went through?

Just reading up on Incorporation and US liability and I just wondered was Kevin tight enough to register his house as a company asset for the tax breaks. Probably not but looking at this screw up of a KS maybe he was that dumb, if so that should give you guys the warm and fuzzies.

Merijeek wrote:
I know there was some screwing around with the pledge manager and all that. Can you tell me the month it went through?

I still have to check my statements to be sure, but I think I was charged for my pledge on 5/20/13, and then when I filled out the pledge manager on 9/11/13.

Found it. I was charged 5/21/2013.

I didn't add anything extra on the PM.

Merijeek wrote:
Man, finding which credit card I used at the time is going to be a bitch....

For those who are trying a charge back, are you doing the full amount?

No, just the amount for the product that wasn't fulfilled. While I don't agree with Kevin's math on the stretch goal stuff included in the Battlecry/etc choices, most of my money was in add on product, so I used his numbers, which agreed on the add-ons at the very least.

Honestly invoicing him probably won't do anything other than create a paper trail, but that could be useful in the future.

SeanDrake wrote:
Just reading up on Incorporation and US liability and I just wondered was Kevin tight enough to register his house as a company asset for the tax breaks. Probably not but looking at this screw up of a KS maybe he was that dumb, if so that should give you guys the warm and fuzzies.

One can only hope, along with his car...

cannonfodr wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
Does anyone have a breakdown of the retail value of the wave two models that are owed for the various tiers?

I kind of recall Forar keeping a list of models owed or something in the past. But that is 5 years of memories dusty.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gmwLLs9LKOcKo-chGNdPaf6rHCKzpmSn1iXE28rYLh0/edit?usp=sharing

My maths don't seem to match with what PB claims though.

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for

First time poster here. Regarding PB changing the terms of their agreement via their response email, it works like this. The Uniform Commerce Code did away with the Mirror Image rule, which used to require that an acceptance of a contract had to accept the contract under the terms it was offered. That is no longer the case. The other party can accept a contract while changing the terms. If they choose to do so, it is up to the originating party to then refuse the altered terms. If they did not specifically refuse the new terms, then the contract is binding. So if you ask for wave one stuff and PB responds by saying "sure, and btw, this means you forfeit any future claims" then that is binding unless you respond with a statement specifically stating that you do not accept those terms.


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Btw, this is under US standards, international standards still maintain the Mirror Image rule.

evancich wrote:
Don't forget you'll have to explain Robotech, mini war gaming and PB to the judge.

As a grown person.

Yes, your honor, I play with toy soldiers from a cartoon in the 1980s. No I can't play my game with these toys I need toys that look a tiny bit different to REALLY play it.

And, Kev slaps down a quote from China (that nobody can read) and says that is from a week ago and production will maybe start in 2 months. This person is crazy and I don't know why I'm here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was giving an analogy of what the legal bars are.

Lowest in MD is a temp peace order, which is about 51%. The other is 91%, almost twice.

Do you think anybody here in a few hours can talk a judge into that PB isn't "working" on it? When the bar is that much higher?

But if I understand this correctly we can only successfully dispute the later backerkit charges, the stuff we added later on. For me that is only $205 of my total order of like $700. :(

I don't know about that. They've given you what they see as the proper dollar amount for what they owe you.

That, plus add-ons should be at least a bit more.

evancich wrote:Why doesn't PB just give all of those to schools and foster wargamming and model building rather than "sell" them or throw them away.

You must not like kids and newbies...

(All kidding aside, the RRT models are not good ones for new modelers and gamers to start with. They would most likely stop the hobby before they start.)