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Kev's Final Insult. They cant do it. They cannot fulfill even their product-for-refund offer before the have to destroy the remaining Robotech Tactics stock and books. I imagine atleast 4000 backers had materials in wave two, with current outstanding claims. A good chunk are holding out hope that the original KS agreement which required backers failing to fulfill on projects to refund backers is still applicable, so that leaves 2000-ish backers requesting product-as-refund. PB has to receive, confirm, tally, pull, package, work CC payment for shipping, and ship all this material in 28 or less days. Nope. Not. Going. To. Happen. Kev will on the last day he still has access to the stock post another update and go "sorry due to the volume of your dedication to this game, we here at PB are unable to ship you your product-as-refund before the end of month deadline. Its not our fault. (to bad for you)" I don't want to believe this will happen, but I feel it will. And what happens when what you requested was not shipped? no strock/no corrections. Those at the end of the queue will end up with random stuff and floor sweepings.

 Mike1975 wrote:
But if I understand this correctly we can only successfully dispute the later backerkit charges, the stuff we added later on. For me that is only $205 of my total order of like $700. :(

You can immediately get $205 out of $700, and then invoice PB for the balance.

Let's say that you received $300 fair value worth of Wave 1 goods, then you'd be owed $400. If you could get $200 of that cash, right off the top, then you'd only be in the hole for $200. Dispute the $205, and invoice PB for the remaining $200.

But definitely start with your CC company to get the first $205.

 judgedoug wrote:


I need screenshots of Palladium saying this to people. If anyone has a screenshot, please post it. It will become vital to ANYONE filing a fraud case through their credit card company against Palladium.
It is the evidence that, for example, Discover needs to show that they were once in compliance with KS-TOU and then are now in violation. The hook is that the promise of refunds is the intention to produce product paid for or to refund for product not received. This is vital.

Here's another :

So... there's an Update from the wayward Scott Gibbons. Nothing of real note. Like Wayne's "questions" from almost three years ago, he answers the questions he wants to answer, and not the ones people actually want answered.

He bleats the same "numbers" as Kevin did, while providing no context or further details, claiming they're not allowed to declare specific numbers.

A lot of meaningless crap.

Oh, the Promo figures was ambiguous and they clarified. It's only one total, plus one per full $100 of owed value. So as someone pointed out, their $210 of owed value doesn't even entitle them to one of each.

And the reason it's not on FB or website is out of respect for backers. Like that's a thing they give a crap about.

Hiding behind NDAs now. They can't, they have a legal obligation per the TOS to share a full accounting of how KS funds were spent. Backers are part of the project, so really it's hard to argue that they are blocked from sharing information via the NDA anyways.

And how has Scott NOT resigned? Sinking ships and all that.

Could it be that Kevin used KS money to fund this movie ?

http://www.zone-image.com/uploads/Ou4H1.jpg

 John Prins wrote:

And how has Scott NOT resigned? Sinking ships and all that.

Because people don't work at PB when they're at the zenith of their career.

If he can't keep a job at PB, what's next? McDonald's has standards.

Scott lives in Texas and has been around PB at least since 2010.

Like most of PB staff, they all have second jobs...

as of 2012, he doesn't seem that Scott was employed by PB.

Update #199 is particularly interesting as he mentioned this:
"Wayne and Kevin spent half of Friday morning (7/16/2017) on a conference call with a manufacturer (I did not sit in on the call due to another pressing business need that morning). "

SO he's in charge but doesn't attend conf call with manufacturers? that's weird... that let me think that Scott didn't know about the actual state of the project until recently. But Wayne and Kevin knew for sure...

As financial and business manager, he should have access to the numbers, but I doubt that based on the description Bill Coffin made years ago on how Kevin operates his company...

 Mike1975 wrote:
But if I understand this correctly we can only successfully dispute the later backerkit charges, the stuff we added later on. For me that is only $205 of my total order of like $700. :(

You can absolutely file a fraud claim on your initial Kickstarter charge.

 jul wrote:
Scott lives in Texas and has been around PB at least since 2010.

Like most of PB staff, they all have second jobs...

as of 2012, he doesn't seem that Scott was employed by PB.

Update #199 is particularly interesting as he mentioned this:
"Wayne and Kevin spent half of Friday morning (7/16/2017) on a conference call with a manufacturer (I did not sit in on the call due to another pressing business need that morning). "

SO he's in charge but doesn't attend conf call with manufacturers? that's weird... that let me think that Scott didn't know about the actual state of the project until recently. But Wayne and Kevin knew for sure...

As financial and business manager, he should have access to the numbers, but I doubt that based on the description Bill Coffin made years ago on how Kevin operates his company...

In his first Update (the same one you got that quote from), Scott did say, among other things "Over the last few weeks, I have become intimately familiar with all aspects of the company on all fronts, financial and otherwise.".

So, he can't really use the excuse that it's not something that wasn't covered. He can claim Kevin lied to him, and that's about it.

On a side note, a backer pointed out that taxes as a category wasn't factored in to the pie chart. He gave numbers, but I'm not sure how accurate they are, including the tax liability of almost $500K. I'm not sure corporate tax is applied in that manner. But he mentions that other similar campaigns have listed taxation as a separate expense.

If people are committed to getting their pound of flesh rather than seeking actual recompense, maybe that's the way to tackle it? The AG's and FTC might not want to take it up, nor a class-action be achievable. But if PB have been screwing the IRS, Kevin will be wishing for the halcyon days of just having backers pissed at them.

Put this generic PB "go feth yourself" response to someone asking for a refund in the event anyone else wants to use it for credit card disputes.

https://ibb.co/b5TgF7

Merijeek wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

And how has Scott NOT resigned? Sinking ships and all that.

Because people don't work at PB when they're at the zenith of their career.

If he can't keep a job at PB, what's next? McDonald's has standards.

I've heard that Kevin gives jobs to his friends that have fallen on hard times.

I can’t post on the KS page, since I’ve deleted my account - can someone pass this question along?

1). Will PB be required to pull the Robotech PDF’s from Drivethru at the end of March? This could affect anyone who requests them in lieu of Wave 2 product who does not access/download the files by the date they are pulled, or would need to redownload the PDF at a later date.

Can't see it - what's it say?

It does seem as if PB is going to try and force the issue here - 'product or nothing', in clear violation of Kickstarter's Terms AND PB's own word.

People will have to get a bit more organized and force the issue back - which will almost assuredly mean bankruptcy for them.

 Alpharius wrote:
Can't see it - what's it say?

It does seem as if PB is going to try and force the issue here - 'product or nothing', in clear violation of Kickstarter's Terms AND PB's own word.

People will have to get a bit more organized and force the issue back - which will almost assuredly mean bankruptcy for them.

Thanks Doug - appreciate it!

Doug -

I submitted to chase, and poof, find myself at a login screen. I know to do a copy before I submit, but, well, it wasn't a fantastic letter.

Since you have had luck with Discover, can you share your verbiage?

 Alpharius wrote:
Thanks Doug - appreciate it!

I just want to point out that for the last many years I thought his username was judgeDOG, until just now.

Now, my brain hurts and I'm going to lay down.

Sure thing guys. I am putting together a pack right now of the evidence that Discover has required of me and the verbiage used.

However, I need a screenshot of official communications from Palladium to any backer since Feb 27 that contains the a) "we cannot offer monetary refunds" verbiage and b) the "Accord and Satisfaction" legal agreement they are attempting to bind backers with.

You mean, other than the official updates ?

 HudsonD wrote:
You mean, other than the official updates ?

The word "refund" is conspicuously absent from any of the updates. The only indication of anything like that is the Accord and Satisfaction debt language in "We know it is not what you expected, but we would like to offer you Wave One rewards in exchange for the unrealized Wave Two rewards."

It is very much a legal cover-your-ass, but they have blown that in their official correspondences to backers, which is why I need screenshots of that.

In the follow up email, they are changing the deal. X+1

Great, now I have the same ability to change the deal. And I'll change it to be X-5 and send you a similar letter.

That is just how it works.

:in Darth Vader's voice: "Palladium Books is altering the deal...pray they don't alter it any further..."

Incoming opinion, observation

Just to note; if this was just about any other company that was offering a swap in product, I’d likely be going for the trade in. I would be unhappy but understanding if I was losing some value via the trade-off; at least I’m getting something of value that I like!

However, PB seems to be both trying its best to be underhanded about the whole process and botch it every step of the way.

- Undervaluing refund for Battlecry+ undelivered Wave 2 product. $37 worth left undelivered my ass

- Putting a rush on swapping the product to panic consumers into acting. The last time PB renewed it’s contract with HG they knew BEFORE January it was coming up. I really think with the lack of updates, they’ve known this was coming back in December.

- Sitting on the fact they were out of funds for the KS for nearly 3 years. I can accept a small delay (say 30, maybe 60 days) if they were trying to secure alternate funds, but they should have long ago revealed their money woes and ended this farce years ago

- The “We’re getting quotes, totes working on it”. I can call up a Lamborgini car center and ask for prices all day long, but if I don’t actually have the money - or ever will have the money saved up for one, its a useless request and I’m not working towards it...

- Demanding backers pay shipping for the swap, especially considering they were already planning to cover shipping on Wave 2 (when they ALREADY knew they were out of funds)

- Being quiet/ignoring about their former statement that they would do REFUNDS if the KS failed. “Swap or nothing” at this time is not acceptable, and akin to a threat under duress

- The brainfart of asking for Credit Card numbers through KS messenger. While it has the typical PB “act before thinking” ring typical to them, it is also a somewhat underhanded request in the first place

- Offering PDFs for product they likely will have to pull because they no longer have the license

They are just really, really coming across as scumbags at this point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and anyone want to take bets on PB having any KS comments deleted that show where they mentioned “refund if KS failed”? Get screenshots while you can, folks.

 judgedoug wrote:
Sure thing guys. I am putting together a pack right now of the evidence that Discover has required of me and the verbiage used.

However, I need a screenshot of official communications from Palladium to any backer since Feb 27 that contains the a) "we cannot offer monetary refunds" verbiage and b) the "Accord and Satisfaction" legal agreement they are attempting to bind backers with.

Just put up a general request for this info on the main FB page......

Been trying. Right now I need a screenshot from Palladium denying a refund request from the last few days.

Also, it took them many months to coordinate and ship out wave 1 rewards to the backers.

Now they are going to do that again, but in one month's time? It's hard to believe they are capable of it.

OK, so apparently Harmony Gold are hosting a panel in just under 5 hours at the Emerald City Comicon (Seattle).

https://www.emeraldcitycomiccon.com/en/Sessions/53151/Robotech-A-Look-To-The-Future

A Look To The Future?

Wow, that's gonna be an uncomfortable panel.

Here is one.....

I just want you guys to know that you can thank me for them finally canceling wave 2. Last week i was flipping through amazon video and saw macross, started watching which got me hype to finally break out the models and begin assembly. Get all zentradi built.... then this happens.

The language in the PMs from PB really does strongly imply that they do not feel that they have to give actual cash refunds to anyone.