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I think that Palladium damaged the Robotech Licence and Harmony Gold did the right thing by ending it.
Wasn't there a new Robotech card game coming out this year and they said they were not allowed by Harmony Gold to use kickstarter for it..
That speaks volumes of what repercussions the RTT did.

The other thing is everyone knew something was wrong when they announced two waves... something wasn't right.. topped off by wanting to
sale first at Gen Con before any backer got their items.. That shows what kind of person Kevin is.. at the end of the day.. he would sale his grandmother
if he thought he could get away with it and make a small profit.

 Forar wrote:
Losing the Robotech license is a start, though with HG losing it themselves, that was a matter of when, not if, the license was revoked.

PB didn't "lose" the Robotech license - they couldn't afford to renew it. There's a difference. HG didn't refuse PB. They simply asked PB to pay the contractual amount by Jan 1st. When PB couldn't cough up the fee, the license expired, and the 90-day termination clause went into effect. This is entirely PB here, not HG at all, aside from HG sticking to their guns and demanding that PB either fulfill the license contract, or lose it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

PB didn't "lose" the Robotech license - they couldn't afford to renew it. There's a difference. HG didn't refuse PB. They simply asked PB to pay the contractual amount by Jan 1st. When PB couldn't cough up the fee, the license expired, and the 90-day termination clause went into effect. This is entirely PB here, not HG at all, aside from HG sticking to their guns and demanding that PB either fulfill the license contract, or lose it.

Actually, what are the odds that PB figured they can get out of the RRT KS mess by citing loss of license, and after they got rid of the stock, work with HG to regain the license for their RPG books?

Incidentally, nice avatar.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Losing the Robotech license is a start, though with HG losing it themselves, that was a matter of when, not if, the license was revoked.

PB didn't "lose" the Robotech license - they couldn't afford to renew it. There's a difference. HG didn't refuse PB. They simply asked PB to pay the contractual amount by Jan 1st. When PB couldn't cough up the fee, the license expired, and the 90-day termination clause went into effect. This is entirely PB here, not HG at all, aside from HG sticking to their guns and demanding that PB either fulfill the license contract, or lose it.

Splitting hairs. Whether they were unable to pay for it, or HG said 'nope, not interested', or a mix of the two (HG set it at a price they knew PB couldn't pay), the outcome is the same; PB no longer has access to the license.

I know pedantry is a thing we do, but I see it as 6 of one, a half dozen of the other. The particulars of how are less relevant to me than the outcome.

Edit: though HG having enough of PB's bullgak and flipping them the bird would be a nice little cherry on things, unlikely as it might be to have happened.

I dunno. I think it's more like McDonalds - the price is set.

As far as I'm concerned, whether they refund those backers that didn't take their deal and then suffer the damage to their reputation, or they go out of business defending themselves in court or they go out of business in anticipation of having to defend themselves in court, there will be consequences to their actions.

I'm not out to "destroy" them. I want them to face the consequences of their behavior and serve as an example to others not to do the same.
There is no white whale, there is just a company that ripped people off and society should not reward them for that.
I'm not Kevin's enemy, I'm one of his victims.

I'd honestly have just the same closure if they showed in court or provided complete transparency that proved that they did nothing illegal or unethical and just ruined themselves through incompetence.

Now, because they aren't forthcoming with data to prove innocent incompetence, it makes me think otherwise.

Thought crossed my mind that not paying the licensing would be a good "out" BUT having to destroy stock is definitely not what PB would want to do.
I doubt HG upped the price on the licensing, PB would be one of the few takers in town, especially with HG about to have theirs run out... I suspect they really, really, wanted PB to pony up the cash.
Sounds like a perfect storm of PB and HG with no resources to spare.

So, leave it to Kevin to figure out another way to make a grab for a cash infusion before he loses all leverage he has remaining.

I am sure he is kicking himself that the Facebook page is running so backers can unite... I am certain a complete takedown of the KS page is coming.
It is what I would do.
If I was evil.

Well, as mentioned previously, the KS page and all the updates have already been archived, so there is that...

Got a reply from KS.

Standard, sorry, we know they broke the ToS but we can't do gak. We'll watch the comments section real hard for you though!

We've had lots of Backer file complaints, but tough gak!

I am sad that KS is a paper tiger and their TOS is wet tissue paper.

I was contemplating coming back to KS to support the upcoming Zombicide: Invaders, but if they have no teeth to enforce their TOS, that’s not happening.

The ToS would be enforced by court order, whether Small Claims or otherwise.

From what I can tell, it would also be enforced as a standing debt were PB to file for bankruptcy, which in all honesty is probably why they haven't yet.

It'd be unsecured debt, though...

Yeah, but unsecured debts of (pretty conservatively) close to a half-million dollars to 5,000 odd backers is likely to draw the attention of the US Trustee. Almost certain to have a committee formed (effectively a class action suggested by the Trustee and paid for out of the estate - PB) in this circumstance, which could *really* feth things up for PB.

One can only hope...

A lawsuit may not see any financial reward to the backers (okay, not "may", there flat out wouldn't be any money left over), but it would be _great_ to have a forensic accountant go through PB's books during discovery.

I'd rather not see anyone destitute and out in the streets over this (or over anything else, really).

...but I wouldn't mind Palladium Books having to close due to it either. Maybe that way their IPs would end up in the hands of someone competent.

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd rather not see anyone destitute and out in the streets over this (or over anything else, really).

That won't happen, PB is a LLC, which means there are strict limits on what assets can be legally attacked - assets owned by PB LLC, not assets owned by Kevin.

That's assuming discovery doesn't find any actual fraud, though mail/wire fraud is very easy to qualify for.

Actually got a response back from Kickstarter support.

Support (Kickstarter)

Mar 6, 5:45 PM EST

Hi there,

Thanks for reaching out. We’ve heard from a number of Robotech backers in response to the creator’s recent update announcing that the project is unable to deliver the second wave of rewards promised to many backers.

Like you, we’re disappointed by the outcome here. Throughout the course of this project, we’ve fielded concerns and encouraged Palladium Books to keep their community in the loop with the project’s progress. Still, after five years, more than 200 updates, thousands of rewards shipped and thousands more unmet, the project has hit an impasse.

Our Terms of Use that were in effect during this project’s funding state, “Kickstarter does not offer refunds....Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.” As funds were disbursed directly to the project creator, Kickstarter is unable to facilitate refunds. Kickstarter is also unable to provide advice on other potential remediation or recourse against a creator, legal or otherwise.

That said, we know how frustrating and disappointing this situation is for both backers and the creators of the Robotech RPG Tactics project. Since 2013, when this campaign ended, we’ve implemented new review processes to make sure that creators who have trouble fulfilling their obligations to backers are forced to undergo a manual review by our Integrity team should they attempt to launch another project in the future. Palladium Books will be held to these same standards. Beyond this, we’re continuing to monitor questions and comments coming in about this project, and working with leadership internally to assess the best path forward.

We appreciate your feedback. Thank you for voicing your concerns.

Best,
Kickstarter Support

"Not our fault! Sucks to be you!"

 John Prins wrote:
That won't happen, PB is a LLC, which means there are strict limits on what assets can be legally attacked - assets owned by PB LLC, not assets owned by Kevin.

Unless he commingles, which I wouldn't be surprised if he does, after reading the Crisis of Treachery.

"Creditors will be looking for ways to reach through the business entity and grab the owners’ personal assets. ... Commingling is one of the most common mistakes that a small business owner makes which can lead to veil peircing. Commingling is a legal term to describe the mixing of personal and business income and expenses."

https://nolasmallbizlaw.com/2012/commingling-how-to-lose-your-personal-liability-protection/

Usually, creators aren't sought after by backers because the lawyers costs are greater than the amount of money recuperated from the creator. And this includes a lawyer hired to gather evidence for these government agencies which are supposed to protect us (eg. Asylum Bicycle cards).

I would go through my credit card first and would think that a credit card company would be more effective than legal action. Found this info for another undelivered KS that might also help. : http://backertrap.info/credit-card-chargeback/

 ProfessorSinu wrote:
Actually got a response back from Kickstarter support.

Support (Kickstarter)

Mar 6, 5:45 PM EST

Hi there,

Thanks for reaching out. We’ve heard from a number of Robotech backers in response to the creator’s recent update announcing that the project is unable to deliver the second wave of rewards promised to many backers.

Like you, we’re disappointed by the outcome here. Throughout the course of this project, we’ve fielded concerns and encouraged Palladium Books to keep their community in the loop with the project’s progress. Still, after five years, more than 200 updates, thousands of rewards shipped and thousands more unmet, the project has hit an impasse.

Our Terms of Use that were in effect during this project’s funding state, “Kickstarter does not offer refunds....Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.” As funds were disbursed directly to the project creator, Kickstarter is unable to facilitate refunds. Kickstarter is also unable to provide advice on other potential remediation or recourse against a creator, legal or otherwise.

That said, we know how frustrating and disappointing this situation is for both backers and the creators of the Robotech RPG Tactics project. Since 2013, when this campaign ended, we’ve implemented new review processes to make sure that creators who have trouble fulfilling their obligations to backers are forced to undergo a manual review by our Integrity team should they attempt to launch another project in the future. Palladium Books will be held to these same standards. Beyond this, we’re continuing to monitor questions and comments coming in about this project, and working with leadership internally to assess the best path forward.

We appreciate your feedback. Thank you for voicing your concerns.

Best,
Kickstarter Support

And with that response I hope that Discovery and whoever else is providing refunds with the intent to go after Palladium also goes after kickstarter indicating that not enforcing their TOS makes them liable. In this way while it is unlikely they will get any cash out of Palladium, they will hopefully get their money back through suing kickstarter.

If that happens Kickstarter might actually start holding creators accountable.

Highly unlikely but I can still hope...

I mean we all knew this already, but it is good to see that Kickstarter itself knows and admits that its ''protections" are useless, that they only care about their 10% and that they have no interest in helping backers of failed projects.

It really will be up to the backers themselves to organize and execute legal action.

 Ctaylor wrote:
A lawsuit may not see any financial reward to the backers (okay, not "may", there flat out wouldn't be any money left over), but it would be _great_ to have a forensic accountant go through PB's books during discovery.

My PA also does FA work at a rate of $400 an hour. Who exactly is going to pay for that?

Litigation Fantasies are nice to have. Sometimes I think there's a tabletop game waiting to be crafted around all the legal tactics that exist.

Honestly, were there not a threat of a lawsuit and it would restore some trust with the community, I bet PB would be willing to open their books.

I don't think PB will open their books unless 'forced to do so' - and unless 'forced to do so' and by an outside party, no one would believe PB anyway - and nor should they.

Given the costs that you mention, the only real hope for a court case and/or settlement here is if some government agency, state or federal, decides to get involved.

Or, I suppose, a successful "Go Fund Me" or something similar.

 Alpharius wrote:
Or, I suppose, a successful "Go Fund Me" or something similar.

ROFL. That's the spirit!

After what happened with Gawker, I was thinking there might be a market for a crowdsourced litigation site. Did a fair amount of customer discovery to hear people tell some awful stories about what happened to them and their inability to afford to go to court.

There's definitely an interest, but I question whether there could be a market. For > 90% of companies, litigation means liquidation - which is not the same as bankruptcy. It's not hard to set up a new entity doing the same thing under a different name, and the costs of pursuing them for going that route only raises the bar.

If we really wanted some teeth in situations like this - it would be to remove the corporate veil and go after the executives personally. That's not going to happen unless someone treated the corporate treasury as a personal checking account, i.e. paying personal bills, vacations, trips to the grocery store, car repairs, etc.

Corporations are not there to encourage responsibility. They are a shield for people who want to take risks.

You bring up a good point - I mean, we don't have any 'proof' (yet) that something untoward happened here, but there's a strong suspicion that PB mismanaged the funds at best, and at worst, 'criminally' misused them.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Or, I suppose, a successful "Go Fund Me" or something similar.

ROFL. That's the spirit!

After what happened with Gawker, I was thinking there might be a market for a crowdsourced litigation site. Did a fair amount of customer discovery to hear people tell some awful stories about what happened to them and their inability to afford to go to court.

crowdjustice.com

I'm not setting up something on there, no.... *shifty eyes*

 Alpharius wrote:
You bring up a good point - I mean, we don't have any 'proof' (yet) that something untoward happened here, but there's a strong suspicion that PB mismanaged the funds at best, and at worst, 'criminally' misused them.

I am sure even after say some case does go through they would push hard to have some non-disclosure agreement... you know how they work.
Because it is really fun to hit someone with a legal Tsunami but have to say you cannot tell any details to others.

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd rather not see anyone destitute and out in the streets over this (or over anything else, really).

Why not? If someone lied and stole, why shouldn't they be made bankrupt in the process?

If Kevin ends up living in a van by the river, due to his own decisions, and the consequences thereafter, why wouldn't that be fitting?