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It's sort of the theme here: consequences.

Because in most cases schadenfreude just isn't cool.

Losing PB to bankruptcy/having to shut it down and the resultant loss of reputation (and the income stream) would probably be 'enough' for most.

It's an interesting situation to watch unfold, for sure.

I do think PB still have a potentially survivable course of action, but they really, really need to get ahead of it. Every day there are more filings with various AGs and the FTC.

Once those get moving, there won't be any stopping them and we'll have another Doom That Came to Atlantic City.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Why not? If someone lied and stole, why shouldn't they be made bankrupt in the process?

If Kevin ends up living in a van by the river, due to his own decisions, and the consequences thereafter, why wouldn't that be fitting?

Simply because I'd rather not see anyone destitute.

There are lots of people who end up bankrupt through no particular fault of their own, and I feel bad for them.

Someone went out of their way to cheat others out of their hard-earned money, and then lied about it for years? Then refusing to admit responsibility or make amends? And trying to skate away without consequences? No, not so much.

I used to joke that Kevin should be reduced to wearing a (bankruptcy) barrel:

I'm not backing away from that.

But really, Kevin shouldn't end up living in a van by the river - that's how a hard-working motiviational speaker lives:


He should actually end up in Debtor's Prison!

Well, for now I think most of us would just have to be happy if they didn't avoid getting off without any major repercussions in general.

Them ending up destitute for the rest of their days or whatever is just revenge fantasy, at least until even some moderate consequences land and manage to stick.

I do hope that some form of (legal, ethical) justice is handed down, but I'm not hedging bets on it occurring either. If their name goes from 'mostly forgotten by the dustbins of time' to 'actively toxic, loathed by many and supported only by their die hard fans', that might have to be enough. If they have to scale back and one day close with little fanfare, fine, whatever.

Kevin ending up in a homeless shelter or whatever isn't necessary for there to be consequences, and everyone's view on what's far enough versus what isn't far enough is just comparing (for now) hypotheticals we're nowhere near existing.

At least until that Legal Tsunami(tm) crashes into Michigan!

 Forar wrote:
If their name goes from 'mostly forgotten by the dustbins of time' to 'actively toxic, loathed by many and supported only by their die hard fans',

At least until that Legal Tsunami(tm) crashes into Michigan!

That has already happened. PB was all but forgotten prior to the RRT KS, and is now loathed aside from fan-friends. No real consequences, so far, though.

Speaking of, what happened to that guy? Did Kevin force refund him to get him to stop posting on KS?

Legal Tsunami, I'd totally play a superhero named that in Villains and Vigilantes or Mutants & Masterminds.

winterdyne wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Or, I suppose, a successful "Go Fund Me" or something similar.

ROFL. That's the spirit!

After what happened with Gawker, I was thinking there might be a market for a crowdsourced litigation site. Did a fair amount of customer discovery to hear people tell some awful stories about what happened to them and their inability to afford to go to court.

crowdjustice.com

I'm not setting up something on there, no.... *shifty eyes*

I'm aware of it. Seems to function more as a social shaming site than a real platform for raising money to fund legal action. A group could probably raise more through a change.org petition. Instagram, Twitter and other microblogging platforms are better at raising awareness and Paypal processes donations for less.

The reason KS works is the novelty of the projects and the appearance that your money is safe with them. Customers don't want to fund wealthy lawyers or someone else's payday, why would anyone want to pay a middleman close to 10% to support a noble cause?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
He should actually end up in Debtor's Prison!

Most likely not.

PB is incorporated as it's own legal entity. If PB gets sued, there are no consequences for the owners other than losses associated with diminished income (which likely benefits them from a tax perspective.)

There are exceptions that mostly revolve around misuse of company funds, which is called co-mingling. This means using the company bank account for personal expenses. Co-mingling is hard to prove unless you have a smoking gun, ordinary business mistakes are not an exception to the corporate veil.

From everything I've seen, going after PB would just result in a decision to close the company. They don't generate enough revenue to fund a legal battle. Sure, you can get a judgement against them, but there's nothing to collect. They might make an offer to settle for fractions of a penny on the dollar. If it's not accepted, PB would just cease operations. The owner could legally set up a new corporation overnight, sell the assets / inventory to it, and start doing business the next day under that new name.

In fact, I'd be surprised if the owner is not already thinking about it, given all the ill-will in the community.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Forar wrote:
If their name goes from 'mostly forgotten by the dustbins of time' to 'actively toxic, loathed by many and supported only by their die hard fans',

At least until that Legal Tsunami(tm) crashes into Michigan!

That has already happened. PB was all but forgotten prior to the RRT KS, and is now loathed aside from fan-friends. No real consequences, so far, though.

Speaking of, what happened to that guy? Did Kevin force refund him to get him to stop posting on KS?

Apparently, Rick must not have got a refund. He's been crowing on the FB page "I've got him now! I've got him now".

@techsoldaten - Huh, I thought a debtor's prison situation was illegal in the US.

This is the same Rick who was going to have PB burned to the ground, and the Earth salted, if they sold at Gen Con before delivering to backers, right?

He's trying to outdo Kevin as far as lack of credibility.

 Stormonu wrote:

@techsoldaten - Huh, I thought a debtor's prison situation was illegal in the US.

To my (limited) understanding, it's a quirk of the law that debtor's prisons are indeed illegal but it's possible to be put in jail for defying a court order to repay the loan after a judgement against you. You're not being jailed for the debt; you're being jailed due to contempt of court for not following the court's order to pay the debt. This is viewed by the ACLU, among others, as a distinction that means little to the affected, but the law is pretty much all about those little technicalities.

Of course, I don't think the practice of jailing people is terribly commonplace so much as one obviously so prone to abuse, especially in localities with elected judges and lobbying money from creditors, that it's viewed as fairly egregious that it's even possible.

Back on topic, while I wouldn't want to see employees of PB out on the street, I also would prefer that PB ceases operations with its assets liquidated and the principal parties of PB who had the biggest hand in lying-through-omission not have a job in the gaming industry anymore. Hopefully at least some of that comes to pass as a warning for future shysters looking to take advantage of people.

I'm a simple man with simple wants.

I want the legal recourse to be Kevin driven to each Backer's town in a moving van with a mobile stockade in the back.

He will then be lowered to the ground where the Backer and any immediate family can throw vegetables at him from morn until midday.

At this point the Backer will be allowed to kick Kevin in the ass until the Backers leg becomes tired. The Backer will be allowed to pick 1 Relief Kicker of his choosing that can continue until that person's leg becomes fatigued.

If this time has ended before sundown, Kevin shall be subjected repeated lashing with a rubber chicken by the strongest person in the vicinity until sundown.

At sundown, he will be placed back in the truck and moved to the next Backer location.

Can't we just tar and feather him, before parading him around on a rail?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Can't we just tar and feather him, before parading him around on a rail?

We all get it that you would really like to see something really bad happen.

In real life, if we punished everyone who made a bad decision, no one would have nice things. There would be no upside in business if owners bore all the risk for what happens. 90% of businesses fail in their first year, it's a trade off.

I'm sure the PB owner made some mistakes. I'm just as sure he doesn't deserve to be the victim of mob violence.

Maybe we can tone down the rhetoric? There would probably be opportunities for the gaming community to learn from his mistakes if he wasn't being threatened daily by anonymous posters on the Internet.

"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

 TwoGunBob wrote:
Legal Tsunami, I'd totally play a superhero named that in Villains and Vigilantes or Mutants & Masterminds.

But not Heroes Unlimited?

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'm sure the PB owner made some mistakes.

OTOH, that's like saying that the Sistine Chapel it's just "some ceiling paint".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 TwoGunBob wrote:
Legal Tsunami, I'd totally play a superhero named that in Villains and Vigilantes or Mutants & Masterminds.

But not Heroes Unlimited?

Well, it depends. How much do you want an aneurism?

 TalonZahn wrote:
I'm a simple man with simple wants.

I want the legal recourse to be Kevin driven to each Backer's town in a moving van with a mobile stockade in the back.

He will then be lowered to the ground where the Backer and any immediate family can throw vegetables at him from morn until midday.

Will I be obligated to take them out of the can first?

 Albertorius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'm sure the PB owner made some mistakes.

OTOH, that's like saying that the Sistine Chapel it's just "some ceiling paint".

I think he's auditioning for the Black Knight. "just a flesh wound"

Rolling up in Heroes Unlimited for Legal Tsunami™ I got two minor powers. Incredible Hand Speed and Heightened Sense of Touch so apparently he's an amazing jerk off just like a certain business owner that shall remain nameless. Heroes Unlimited, where there's no superhero that can do everything but plenty of them that can do nothing at all.

 ScarletRose wrote:
"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

I was saying calls to tar and feather him are not constructive. If the point is for backers to get some of their value back / satisfaction of driving PB out of business, this would likely have the opposite effect.

Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Wow, so it's finally coming to something of an end.
My condolences to all those who lost time and $ on this.

Gotta say that I'm a little miffed that it looks like short of true legal action (which would likely not result in full refunds anyway, just PB bankrupcy) PB is going to carry on with their other projects after pocketing everyone's $ and using this loss of IP to cover their backsides.

It's unfortunate that companies continue to do business with PB. I wish our hobby could be rid of folks like Kevin Siembieda the way we shed Tony Reidy.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

I was saying calls to tar and feather him are not constructive. If the point is for backers to get some of their value back / satisfaction of driving PB out of business, this would likely have the opposite effect.

Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

There's the arguable, but not clear-cut, case of them claiming that Wave 2 was going to be produced when by their recent admission they knew they wouldn't have the funds to do so literal years ago. In court it would likely be sufficient to prove they were trying to secure the funding by other means to stave off the failure, if they can produce credible documentation to that effect. However, the question of how the project funds were suddenly insufficient would come up which could lead to uncomfortable answers from PB (i.e. - overbuying retail using KS funds without leaving sufficient funds for completion) which may drift it into a grayer area that most people would care to be in normally.

More relevant is the repeated statements that they would offer refunds if the project could not deliver rewards as a response to people requesting them and thus as their reason for not returning the funds. They do not appear to be honoring that repeated statement, which they acknowledged was something they had agreed to do under the KS agreement. If they continue to not refund money, that does on the surface appear to make their earlier statements, which were made when some funds could likely have been recouped more readily, fraudulent. They said if X happened, they would do Y as required. X happened and while there's still time for them to do Y there's been no mention of it being an option. To then offer refunds if you didn't take their earlier option also seems like it'd fall afoul of aspects of that, as perhaps backers who did take up the stock offer would have preferred refunds if it had been mentioned. So it seems likely they have no intention of doing refunds, which is them keeping people's money when they said they would return it which, to my layman's interpretation, would be deception.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

I was saying calls to tar and feather him are not constructive. If the point is for backers to get some of their value back / satisfaction of driving PB out of business, this would likely have the opposite effect.

Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

So, your two points here are:

1. You don't actually know the details, but you're going to argue anyway.

2. Palladium Books being forced out of business would likely have the opposite effect being sought by those who...want to force Palladium Books out of business

 techsoldaten wrote:
Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Multiple years of lying about the money spent?

Merijeek wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

I was saying calls to tar and feather him are not constructive. If the point is for backers to get some of their value back / satisfaction of driving PB out of business, this would likely have the opposite effect.

Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

So, your two points here are:

1. You don't actually know the details, but you're going to argue anyway.

2. Palladium Books being forced out of business would likely have the opposite effect being sought by those who...want to force Palladium Books out of business

Brilliant!

 Albertorius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Multiple years of lying about the money spent?

Along with saying that they'd finally provide refunds if they ever couldn't deliver.

Someone in the RRT Comments section of Kickstarter, pointed out this textual work of art.

In a the crapfest that was the Zero incident, a backer who got into it with a PB representative (Jeff, apparently) on the phone, then took it to the RRT Comments, crapped himself, and rolled around in it. Then a PB representative (who would soon identify himself) got down and started rolling around too.

Resulting in this specific post, that a backer linked to.

Palladium Books Creator on March 18, 2014
This isn't Jeff, this is Wayne. I was nearby while Jeff was on the phone with you, and he was calm and polite the entire call, whereas you were rude and resorted to name-calling. He simply did not say the things you claim.

We're sorry about the delay in delivering the rewards for this project, but it is coming, and soon. There is no question about whether we will deliver. If something were to happen that would cause us to be unable to deliver, we would, of course, offer refunds as Kickstarter's terms dictate. But that is not the case here; not even close. We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. Wave Two by the end of the year, hopefully well before. Screaming and calling names won't speed up the process.

That Wayne specified himself as posting, means Kevin can't even use the "Jeff doesn't work here anymore" argument.

Don't need personal emails saying the same thing, when it was explicitly stated by a PB representative in the comments section.

There we go! Nice!