Robotech® RPG Tactics™-License lost, the end is near!

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**wilycoyote**

Another small but possibly signifant point to consider is how much money Palladium took in from Retail sales over the last four years. afterall, as you worked out Morgan, they spent an inordinate amount of kickstarter funds on the extra wave one product.

This of course was the gamble to repay and then take profit, but considering they state the money ran out after wave one, where did thiese retail monies go to. They never paid for the product or its import so every set sold was pure $99 profit to them. They were selling wave one items at conventions, presumably they were paid by some wholesalers and FLGS's so it would be interesting to find out the numbers.

Of course these monies were never declared in the pie chart.

I would love to know who the project manager who received $47k was as well, as I am not sure this was a legitimate use of KS funds - noone was added to the payroll at PB so was this just a bit of pocket money for Kevin?

**Morgan Vening**

wilycoyote wrote:
Another small but possibly signifant point to consider is how much money Palladium took in from Retail sales over the last four years. afterall, as you worked out Morgan, they spent an inordinate amount of kickstarter funds on the extra wave one product.

This of course was the gamble to repay and then take profit, but considering they state the money ran out after wave one, where did thiese retail monies go to. They never paid for the product or its import so every set sold was pure $99 profit to them. They were selling wave one items at conventions, presumably they were paid by some wholesalers and FLGS's so it would be interesting to find out the numbers.

Of course these monies were never declared in the pie chart.

I would love to know who the project manager who received $47k was as well, as I am not sure this was a legitimate use of KS funds - noone was added to the payroll at PB so was this just a bit of pocket money for Kevin?

That's still just an assumption, granted one based on fairly basic math, and a rudimentary understanding of costs involved.

We don't know for a fact that they spent Kickstarter funds on Wave 1 Retail manufacture, or Wave 1 Retail importation, or Wave 1 Retail advertising. All of which would be a misappropriation of funds, and could lead to Kevin being in big trouble from a legal perspective.

But if money was NOT spent on Wave 1 Retail, then the numbers given need a whole lot more clarification. As I said in an earlier post, the manufacturing costs indicate a per box cost to PB of ~$100. And we know that's just not realistic, based on examples from other Kickstarters. It only makes sense if Wave 1 Retail was included in that cost. Same with importation. $70K for 9 containers is on the high, but within the realms of realism. $70K for 3-4 containers would be outlandish.

Which is why, if Kevin didn't do anything wrong, he should have no problem opening the books. He is on record as saying that he's got all that information. And it'd get some people off his back if he can legitimately explain why there's no money left for refunds, and could circumvent any potential class/FTC/Michigan AG actions. The main reason not to, would be that there is either funds left and the numbers on expenses are inflated, or he misappropriated the funds. That's why sales from retail product aren't on the balance sheets we've seen. Cause that'd be tantamount to an admission of guilt of misappropriation.

**Forar**

By the by, if anyone would be interested in purchasing my outstanding credit (over $400 US) worth, I'd be open to sorting something out. Obviously not full price, but since some people are taking advantage of this opportunity, I figured it'd be worth making the offer here on Dakka as well.

A chance to pick up a pile of swag, and for any US based folks, one that's likely far more affordable in terms of shipping than I'd ever get. My friends and I lack any interest in more wave one, and resale will likely be an uphill battle as the firesale rages.

**Swabby**

At this point I can't even get basic info out of PB no way would I try a pledge switch right now.

**Forar**

I figure it ought to be about as simple as a quick paypal and including PB on the message chain, with a phone call to spur some action if need be, but I can understand some reluctance.

**warboss**

Talizvar wrote:

I am very troubled by the Facebook group for the "litigation".
It appears the more vocal naysayers have completely angered a few key people.
Unfortunately, large groups tend to need to be lead (preferably with a known method and objective), looking for consensus is rather problematic.
My negativity can see this rather implode.
I hope I am wrong.

If you don't mind me asking, what's going on with that group? From the last post here, there was a letter sent to Palladium albeit before the Crisis of Robotreachery (just like fetch ~~and wave 2~~, it will happen... eventually!) and I figured the announcement would galvanize them further.

**n815e**

Rick aggravated at least one person on the committee and got himself sent to the time out corner.

**JohnHwangDD**

n815e wrote:
Rick aggravated at least one person on the committee and got himself sent to the time out corner.

Unbelievable. I never could have guessed that would happen.

**winterdyne**

It might get clawed back together, but I'm not doing the legwork on me todd any more.

There's a definite brexiteer mentality with some (lawsuit! lawsuit naow!) with little actual checking of the situation or how such a thing can be arranged, let alone paid for. Worse yet, these people seem to want to sabotage the building of pressure through the AG and FTC, which by all appearances is the most valid route forward.

**Kid_Kyoto**

This is interesting:

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/39898/japanime-releasing-three-robotech-board-games?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

JAPANIME RELEASING THREE ROBOTECH BOARD GAMES

Preview from GAMA Trade Show

Posted by Nicole Bunge on March 15, 2018 @ 1:02 am CT

AddThis Sharing Buttons
Share to FacebookShare to TwitterShare to EmailShare to More

Japanime Games has partnered with Strange Machine Games, Escape Velocity Games and Harmony Gold to release three board games based on the iconic Robotech property.

Japanime will have worldwide distribution rights of the three games: Robotech: Ace Pilot, Robotech: Attack on the SDF-1, and Robotech: Brace for Impact. Each game utilizes different game dynamics and all three are planned for summer release.

Strange Machine Games will produce two games. Robotech: Ace Pilot is a dice game where players vie for the title of Ace Pilot. Players must evaluate the enemy Zentraedi threat each turn, and deploy the best SDF-1 crew members to deal with it, collecting kills as they progress. Upgrades are available along the way, as well as ways to sabotage rival pilots. The game is for 2 – 4 players, ages 8 and up, and plays in 25 minutes. Release is planned for June.

Robotech: Attack on the SDF-1 is a cooperative game where players take the role of one of the characters of the Super Dimension Fortress One and defend the ship against attacks, unexpected disasters, and treachery. Players must manage their resources as they battle enemies, repair damages, and attempt to make it home in one piece. The game is for 1 – 5 players, ages 12 and up, and plays in 120 minutes.

Robotech: Brace for Impact is a real-time overlord style game from Strange Machine Games and Escape Velocity Game. One player takes the role of the Zentraedi, while other players work together to fend off the alien assaults. Players have a hand of cards representing problems which need to be tackled, but they must enlist at least one other crew member to complete them. The timer ticks down between assaults, and players must fix their ship and return fire as soon as possible. Meanwhile, the Zentraedi player will be attacking the fleet with tactics cards from their hand. If players can survive 10 minutes and the final assault they win. The game is for 2 – 10 players, ages 10 and up, and plays in 10 minutes. Release is planned for summer.

Japanime Games was showing off prototypes of two games at the GAMA Trade Show, click the gallery below to view images from the show.

That was a pretty fast turn around since IIRC Palladium basically argued their licence extended to all games.

PS Japanime? Your company is called Japanime? Is this 1986?

**warboss**

n815e wrote:
Rick aggravated at least one person on the committee and got himself sent to the time out corner.

As in that Rick? The one that used to post here? I'm as shocked as John. He was a paragon of reasonableness and restraint here. In any case, he insinuated here and on kickstarter comments that he got his money back a long time ago. Why was he even allowed in given that?

**winterdyne**

The same. To say he's not very good at holding himself in check is a bit of an understatement. Even if he has a point worth looking at in more detail, it's wrapped up in some much bluster it's often easy to miss it. Easier still now I have him blocked on FB.

**Necros**

In 20 years, I expect there to be a documentary on Netflix about a guy digging up 10,000 copies of the game out of the arizona desert.. like the ET atari game.

**Forar**

winterdyne wrote:
The same. To say he's not very good at holding himself in check is a bit of an understatement. Even if he has a point worth looking at in more detail, it's wrapped up in some much bluster it's often easy to miss it. Easier still now I have him blocked on FB.

One of his biggest challenges has always been that even when he's in the right, he's so abrasive and obnoxious that you still want to argue with him on principle.

Necros wrote:
In 20 years, I expect there to be a documentary on Netflix about a guy digging up 10,000 copies of the game out of the arizona desert.. like the ET atari game.

Make it a Michigan landfill and we're in business.

"Robotech, now a cultural phenomenon, though one that took nearly half a century to be fully embraced by the public at large. With the blockbuster release of the Live Action Movie in 2023, and the box office record setting trilogy that swept up the world's imagination, one might wonder, where did this incredible IP languish for so many years?

We are on a journey to find the answer..."

**warboss**

Necros wrote:
In 20 years, I expect there to be a documentary on Netflix about a guy digging up 10,000 copies of the game out of the arizona desert.. like the ET atari game.

That would require Palladium to be honest and actually destroy copies. My guess is that whatever is left after internet clearance bulk retailers will be sold for pennies on the dollar to relatives/fan friends or Kevin himself as a private individual and stored nearby (possibly even still at Palladium for free because Kevin is soooo generous) to drip drab out for sale slowly for years alongside old star wars and X-Men toys. Just my guess... I don't see them actually destroying large quantities of product that represents the fruit of Palladium's efforts/hubris.

**winterdyne**

Considering that recent transactions tend to be auditted closely when a company declares Chapter 11, selling stock off at pennies to private individuals associated with the company would be a very, very silly thing to do as it's an example of fraudulent trading that could be used to pierce the corporate veil.

I expect to see a chapter 11 filing from PB in the very near future- if not the end of the month, perhaps some time in April.

**n815e**

Kevin hasn't shown much in the way of forethought up to this point...

**wilycoyote**

Anyone else find it ironic tat palladium have worked harder on RTT in the last two eeks after it failed, than they managed in the previous three?

Got to squueeze the last few cents from the franchise , eh Kevin?

PS Thanks Morgan fo rthe clarification

**Eilif**

Talizvar wrote:
Eilif wrote:
"Legitimate expenses" means almsot nothing when dealing with these kind of small operations.
Payroll is a legitimate expense and when you're paying yourself...
Agreed.
Due to the excellent job being done it was felt that the commander in chief should have a 30% pay increase that was long overdue for doing such a fantastic job.

Spoiler:

An upgrade to the company car would be in order as well.
Maybe a company boat to take clients out to talk business and fish.
A company teamwork retreat in the Caribbean is long overdue.
Some benefits for messages administered to staff to assist in handling their stressful jobs has become a necessity.
So many legitimate needs that must be met, it is a wonder there was enough money to get Wave 1 out.

Yep,
Kind of the way Big NCAA Colleges say "We don't make money on our football team. We just pay our coaches a couple million a year, and have installed a spa in our training center, and just hired 10 more assistant coaches, and... There's no way we could afford to pay our players, or sustain their scholarships if they get injured, or...."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:
Necros wrote:
In 20 years, I expect there to be a documentary on Netflix about a guy digging up 10,000 copies of the game out of the arizona desert.. like the ET atari game.

That would require Palladium to be honest and actually destroy copies. My guess is that whatever is left after internet clearance bulk retailers will be sold for pennies to relatives/fan friends or Kevin himself as a private individual and stored nearby (possibly even still at Palladium for free because Kevin is soooo generous) to drip drab out for sale slowly for years alongside old star wars and X-Men toys. Just my guess... I don't see them actually destroying large quantities of product that represents the fruit of Palladium's efforts/hubris.

Yeah, unless Harmony presses for proof of destruction, my guess is that anything that is left will get sold out the back in-cash to someone who will be hawking them for years at conventions.

**stanman**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

That was a pretty fast turn around since IIRC Palladium basically argued their licence extended to all games.

PS Japanime? Your company is called Japanime? Is this 1986?

Palladium's license has already been over for an entire year already, they were given a grace period by HG to wrap things up but meanwhile PB has been lying to people claiming that they were still hard at work and wave 2 was still "in progress" despite knowing full well that it wasn't happening and their license was over. Not that anybody needed more reason to add onto the giant pile of why they are shady as feth.

**Forar**

Oh? Citation on the "over for a year now"?

They admitted to losing it in late February, and people assumed that it might have been figured out in December when Scott went quiet, but I haven't see evidence that it lapsed 12+ months ago.

**Swabby**

December makes sense to me because they started dropping RRT from their weekly update, but that is only circumstantial at best.

**n815e**

I think it was around the new year two years ago that they said they renewed it.

**Stormonu**

Yeah, December makes the most sense for a "point of no return" on the license, though someone pointed out that the first we heard of some new boardgames was Sept - so there may have been some quiet rumblings with the IP license as far back as then.

I very much doubt HG would let PB sit on garnering money from a terminated contract for over 6 months though - that transition time is likely a point where money's slow as you transition between licensing companies. At some point you have to rip the bandage off or the terminated company is just bankrolling on "stolen" IP. And we know how BOTH PB and HG are tight-fisted about protecting "their" IP...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

n815e wrote:
I think it was around the new year two years ago that they said they renewed it.

Aren't most licensing contracts for 2 - 5 years? Yearly would seem like a drain on resources on both sides...

**Ctaylor**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
That was a pretty fast turn around since IIRC Palladium basically argued their licence extended to all games.

My recollection is that PB only had the RPG rights to Robotech, which is why we got the clunky title "Robotech RPG Tactics" (I'll let those playing at home insert the TM and R symbols).

And we don't know if the license was exclusive.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Ctaylor wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
That was a pretty fast turn around since IIRC Palladium basically argued their licence extended to all games.

My recollection is that PB only had the RPG rights to Robotech, which is why we got the clunky title "Robotech RPG Tactics" (I'll let those playing at home insert the TM and R symbols).

And we don't know if the license was exclusive.

I claim no special knowledge but my memory is someone was pitching the mini game directly to HG but Palladium claiming their licence included games. Could be wrong though.

**paulson games**

When I first approached HG about making minis they said that I'd have to go through PB as it would likely be under their license which was up for renewal on a repeating two year basis. (This was early 2012) then later when I heard back from them they'd locked in the agreement and it now specifically included game pieces & game accessories as part of the Rpg umbrella. They had to be very specifically addressed as such to avoid conflict with the other license holders for model kits hence why they were not referred to as miniatures game in the PB materials and always as rpg "game".

The past license renewals are mentioned In the older PB updates and batches of robotech books were reprinted shortly after each renewal. If the license was on a two year terms then it would have been on it's second renewal in early-mid 2016. I don't know if they picked up another renewal or not but I don't recall it being announced in the murmurs like they previously had. If they did renew for 2016-2018 then it possibly got revoked half way through it's duration but I'm not sure how easily a mid term contract can be broken?

This part is speculation, but If I'm remembering things correctly didn't they started marketing the robotech board game mid 2017? I don't think They wouldn't have been able to do that if somebody else (like PB) had the license active?

**cannonfodr**

Swabby wrote:
December makes sense to me because they started dropping RRT from their weekly update, but that is only circumstantial at best.

Didn't Kevin say at some point that they had to have a 2017 release? I can't find it in an update so now checking the weekly spam. Previously we all thought it was the usual hyperbole, but in light of the current information, it could indicate when they knew.

edit: found it. nov 23 2016 weekly update.

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – 2017 release
For us, 2017 is a must release deadline for Wave Two. We are still waiting on a few new quotes before we can offer anything concrete. Working on a few new Robotech® books, too. Brand new stuff that would create new factions and fun, as well as plotting organized play. More when details are hammered out.

**paulson games**

That update kinda sounds like we have a deadline to meet or things get pulled from us. Being that it's dated from 2016 it'd indicate that they knew the gig was up for pretty much all of 2017 but maybe I'm reading too much into that? Surely Kevin wouldn't try to mislead his faithful...

**Kid_Kyoto**

Thanks Paulson Games, I thought it was you but couldn't count on my memory.