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I don't believe this is what happened, but it's not impossible that the apparent over ordering of wave 1 was a genuine attempt to get wave 2 to happen

it goes a bit like this

they dither and fiddle, delay and dump the production factory originally intended for the project when Ninja division was actively involved,

wave 1 happens but it's cost a lot more than they planned, so much that they know they can't afford to make wave 2, after all that's a whole lot more design and tooling and salary for all of Palladiums multitudes of highly paid design staff

there's still a bunch of cash left but just not enough when they've done the sums, but, the price they pay for wave 1 stuff gets cheaper the more they order

so they blow a lot of the remaining cash on extra product (leaving just enough for those salaries for the next year or two, probably technically allowable) which they genuinely think they can sell and thus fund all the work needed for wave 2

but of course it doesn't work, however they have tried to complete the KS, and if they've then carried on technically trying to sell more wave 1 stock to progress the project they may be able to carry on successfully claiming they were trying

now depending on the actual numbers involved i'd say that the above might just be technically good enough to get them off the hook

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I don't believe this is what happened, but it's not impossible that the apparent over ordering of wave 1 was a genuine attempt to get wave 2 to happen

it goes a bit like this

they dither and fiddle, delay and dump the production factory originally intended for the project when Ninja division was actively involved,

wave 1 happens but it's cost a lot more than they planned, so much that they know they can't afford to make wave 2, after all that's a whole lot more design and tooling and salary for all of Palladiums multitudes of highly paid design staff

there's still a bunch of cash left but just not enough when they've done the sums, but, the price they pay for wave 1 stuff gets cheaper the more they order

so they blow a lot of the remaining cash on extra product (leaving just enough for those salaries for the next year or two, probably technically allowable) which they genuinely think they can sell and thus fund all the work needed for wave 2

but of course it doesn't work, however they have tried to complete the KS, and if they've then carried on technically trying to sell more wave 1 stock to progress the project they may be able to carry on successfully claiming they were trying

now depending on the actual numbers involved i'd say that the above might just be technically good enough to get them off the hook

I don't see how. Kickstarter money was spent on non-Kickstarter stuff. That they hoped to accrue funds from it is irrelevant.

If they'd spent $300K on lottery tickets, that'd be no different. It'd be misappropriation.

And doesn't get around the threefold issue.
1) Funds from sales of retail product have NOT been accounted for. The revenue streams to get to the $1.58M claim are fully accounted for. PB appear to have put all Wave 1 sales back into revenue. If so, that's fraud.
2) The only evidence we have that there is no money remaining, is the word of an inveterate liar, and a piechart that has, as I and others have pointed out, huge glaring holes after even the most cursory look.
3) Palladium itself still has funds, and PB are ON RECORD as saying that if the Kickstarter fails, they would refund backers, as obligated by Kickstarter Terms of Use. There was no caveat.

As long as Palladium is solvent as a company, they're not off the hook. Like Wiley said elsewhere, this is far from over.

In the contract, I've found nothing that states explicity precludes raised funds from being used for whatever PB want.

That funds should only have been used for the purpose they were requested can probably be argued that by implication or initial representation.

That refunds are a contractual obligation is not arguable against at all though.

Onto insolvency - I think anything short of complete liquidation can and quite probably will still leave them on the hook, especially considering the amount involved. The US Trustee is unlikely to overlook it if they run through small business Chapter 11 for example.

We're not talking about a few hundred dollars. We're talking about a few thousand times that, from a few thousand almost identical claims.

As far as I can tell, those can, even in Chapter 11, be subsumed into a singular class to make them manageable. All of a sudden you're looking at a few hundred thousand dollars in partial refund, if you can get it argued down to that.

Yeah, this isn't over, not by a long, long chalk.

It is going to get very interesting.

Well, I sent my note off to PB saying as stated in my prior email that I did not want the refund-in-trade deal and they should free the product for others.
As stated earlier, I am into this more for the principle of the thing... I suspect I may regret this later BUT moving things forward to discovery and hampering PB's ability to do as they please with customer orders/money is needed.
So now a measure of closure has eluded my grasp for now.
Also as stated, there was a bit of "wobble" with the Facebook group but they seem to have things moving now.

I find it rather funny we are in the "out for quotes" state of things.
We are trying to get the complexity count way down and to get what we backers want.
If we start saying we are 98% done and things are heating up... well...

So, now PB is figured to be about done.
All that is left is filling their "orders".
Then end of month issue a bunch of take-downs with the KS page as priority I am sure.
The product in their warehouse being destroyed would be really interesting.
A bunch of burn barrels in the back lot??

I REALLY have to remember to make sure I get all the cards and build instructions from Drive-Thru RPG.
I think I have most of it but definitely not all.
Though I am sure Mike could say why I am bothering with all that garbage when his really good stuff is available.

One thing of interest I have to ask of those here: when is a logical closure of this thread? I am sure the MODs are beginning to give it some thought and it IS their judgement call but, when?
End of this month being the official IP death of the game and Kickstarter?
The ongoing saga of litigation (maybe as a new thread)?
It is like an old hangout or bar closing... sad but very necessary for those concerned.

I'm actually on the committee for the legal action group.

Things are heating up, but they're far from done.

One firm of lawyers who approached us are currently looking over a document I put together detailing the parties involved (HG, ND, PB, Kickstarter, Backerkit, Backers), an abbreviated timeling of the project, relevant points from the contract, illustrated breaches of that contract, and a very initial analysis of PB's assets, in particular Rifts and the PEG / Savage Worlds kickstarter (which presumably would have netted in the regions of $50k in royalties for PB, plus ongoing royalties in sales).

We obviously need to reach out to others - I've spoken with a few but it's difficult when I'm not in the US. More proactive comittee members are needed, for sure.

If all else fails, we're also gathering a significant number of backers' details, including MI AG and FTC complaint references to combine up. It's easy to ignore or brush off a number of complaints of a couple of hundred dollars. Less easy to ignore fewer complaints but each of tens of thousands. Less easy still once we gather sufficient data and combined complaints to start throwing in complaints of over $100k. It's getting there, but it's very much a numbers game.

At the end, I didn't accept their offer. I think it's more important to make a stand that such behaviour is not acceptable to me as a KS backer.

Yeah I'm out some change that way, but the irresponsible way PG had handled the situations really require some sort of... explanation, resolution and if necessary, reckoning. Taking a material deal (and at the rates they are offering) would have just reinforced bad behaviour, in my view.

Shameless copy/paste from a post I just put up in the Kickstarter comments to spread the word a bit:

If you have not accepted PB's attempt at accord & satisfaction (their 'exchange' deal) we encourage you to get involved with our efforts to pursue legal action. This is very much a numbers game- the more of us there are, the better!

If you do facebook, please do join the legal action group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/510264239170789/

You will need to provide a screenshot of your backerkit page (windows + print screen on windows machines, image saved in pictures/screenshots).

Whether or not you use Facebook, you can also register with us by emailing us at:
rrtbackersinfo@gmail.com
Please use the subject line 'RRT BACKER DATA'
And include your name, address, pledge level spend, backerkit spend, and any AG / FTC complaint references you have.

This information will not be passed on to any third party without your permission.

General enquiries can be sent to rrtbackersinfo@gmail.com with the subject line 'BACKER ENQUIRY'.

We'll be putting up another website to help with communications in the near future.

Thanks for your attention.

I noticed that their website is showing blowout prices of... msrp (except for the main box).

I find it rather funny we are in the "out for quotes" state of things.
We are trying to get the complexity count way down and to get what we backers want.
If we start saying we are 98% done and things are heating up... well..

THIS is really funny.

You'd think that PB would have updated the prices with markdowns at midnight to clear out as much stock as they could before the end of the month.

Then again, if it was going to be expensive for them to destroy any remaining stock, you'd think they would've given more favorable exchange terms to backers. Oh wait, from Kev's reply to complaints submitted to the BBB, backers already got more than what they paid for in MSRP so he's bending over backwards offering the exchange and any given away in the exchange is one less sold which is less money in his pocket.

Or maybe it's more advantageous as a tax write off. Say he's got 5000 core boxes left. He claims each is worth $100 so that's $500k right there plus any expansions. I could see him claiming a quarter of a million loss on taxes given he likely marked up his losses during the crisis of treachery as well. Especially if there's no actual enforcement of the product being destroyed. Even if he keeps a small fraction and trickles it out from his ebay store, it'll be enough to last him awhile before he runs out of stock, if ever.

They are probably still not sure how much stock they have to address the requests, based on the number of people that are complaining that they requested exchanges and didn't get a response.

I'm sure that nothing will get done in April, as they have to recover from actually doing some work, for once.

If PB had managed to fully deliver the rewards, or provide full refunds, yeah, nobody would care what they did with the money.

But that's not happening, so people are owed an explanation of "why not?" if they don't want to accept pennies on the dollar

Priced to sell now.

 n815e wrote:
Priced to sell now.

Yup. 65% off Core, 60% off Expansions and Components, 70% off on books.

The day after the last opportunity for suckers... I mean backers, to "pay" significantly more.

If they'd been this generous with backers, instead of milking them for everything, and then profiteering off backers* by firesaling to the public, maybe they wouldn't have QUITE so many people pissed at them.

* Because until I see evidence that backer money wasn't spent on Retail Wave 1, OR evidence that all revenue from the sale of Retail Wave 1 is (and was) put back into the project, then this is PB selling backer owed product, for their own profit.

yep, and it does not come with Vaseline for the backers that took the offer to swap their wave 2 for wave 1....

Morgan Vening wrote:
65% off Core, 60% off Expansions and Components, 70% off on books.

This is the *true* value of what PB delivered, and can be subtracted from what the Backers paid to determine what PB still owes them for refunds per the Ts & Cs when they originally took Backer money.

Do you think PB will lower the price even more ? Should i still wait to buy something ?
Postage costs are almost 70$ for France.
I would like to buy some stuff at least to complete my own collection.
Can you remind me how much time is left before they can't sell RRT anymore ?
If at least that money could be used to refund the backers.

Right now I think they're priced at or just over cost.

I think yes, the price will drop again. Probably mid next week.

Stuff can be sold until the 31st of March.

I don't think PB will willingly refund backers at all. If they were, they would have made arrangements to do so immediately that it became apparent that Wave 2 could not be made (ie very, very early on). People would have accepted a payment plan over several years at that point.

Now, it is extremely likely they won't, or they won't trust PB to stick to any arrangement (which is fair enough given the length of time we've been fed what can at best be described as misrepresentative communications).

PB have taken what could have been a disgruntled and disappointed backer base and turned a significant portion of it into a very angry mob.

Making it even clearer once again that there's no situation as fethed up that Palladium Books can't make worse.

princecorg wrote:
Do you think PB will lower the price even more ? Should i still wait to buy something ?
Postage costs are almost 70$ for France.
I would like to buy some stuff at least to complete my own collection.

Can you not find what you want on ebay, or from an online seller or something? You'll be giving money to people who deserve it far more than PB that way.

@Soul Samurai

I've done some research on Amazon and Ebay.
The main problem is that RRT items seem overpriced (for example RRT core box over 120$ without shipping taxes)
I think i will wait and see.
I don't really want to give PB money that they don't deserve, maybe the secondary market will become more affordable in a few weeks.

Perharps it is time to go for Heavy Gear Blitz. Some advices ?

princecorg wrote:

Perharps it is time to go for Heavy Gear Blitz. Some advices ?

Yes. Do something else.

It occurred to me earlier today that PB is incredibly stupid. Since PB wanted the backers to pay shipping, there's really nothing stopping PB from applying the current discount to the backer exchange program, which would have encourage more to take up the offer and also buy some goodwill.

This indicates poor think-through (duh) and the focus to solve PB's problem and not a customer-centric approach. Nothing we should be surprised by given the track record, but yeah.

 HudsonD wrote:

princecorg wrote:

Perharps it is time to go for Heavy Gear Blitz. Some advices ?

Yes. Do something else.

BUT if you do that, PM me. I have entirely too much Heavy Gear stuff and I want to get rid of some . As to the actual game, I don't much care about the current ruleset, and the plastic minis vary from decent (Caprice) to absolutely horrendous (South), but the metals are lovely and the older rulesets have much to like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynx7725 wrote:
It occurred to me earlier today that PB is incredibly stupid. Since PB wanted the backers to pay shipping, there's really nothing stopping PB from applying the current discount to the backer exchange program, which would have encourage more to take up the offer and also buy some goodwill.

This indicates poor think-through (duh) and the focus to solve PB's problem and not a customer-centric approach. Nothing we should be surprised by given the track record, but yeah.

No, see... if they did that they'd have less stuff to firesale for actual money, and as they expect people will be taking it from their hands at that discount, they need to have as much as possible while at the same time deleting as much debt as possible. It makes perfect sense, if you are PB and think everything from an outside source is fake news.

 Lynx7725 wrote:
It occurred to me earlier today that PB is incredibly stupid. Since PB wanted the backers to pay shipping, there's really nothing stopping PB from applying the current discount to the backer exchange program, which would have encourage more to take up the offer and also buy some goodwill.

This indicates poor think-through (duh) and the focus to solve PB's problem and not a customer-centric approach. Nothing we should be surprised by given the track record, but yeah.

Kevin cares not from where the money flows, so long as he gets his cut.

The decent thing to do would be to take the funds from the fire sale and use them for backer refunds, but we all know that PB is too morally deficient to do something like that. Ah well, he’ll have a fun time defending his actions in court - if we ever get that far.

 HudsonD wrote:

princecorg wrote:

Perharps it is time to go for Heavy Gear Blitz. Some advices ?

Yes. Do something else.

In a nutshell, that's the best advice.

If you're interested in HG, you probably want the metals because you liked the look of the older South (& North) stuff, not the new-fangled Mary Sue factions or the brand new plastics. Those are spendy. Also, the rules are not good for something being sold today, being mired in the 80s. Really, I'd save my money for something else.

I would have figured the backer liability to be a greater issue (so should have dropped prices slightly to get more takers) but he has more experience than I with litigation.
I agree that it was just another ploy to show he was "trying" to make good to the backers while he tries to rake in more money with the exchange.
Certainly knows their priorities: get the money, do whatever looks good to keep anyone with clout from thumping them (AG, FTC).
I think they have been banking on backers never getting organized enough to get a class action going, it certainly appears to have a few challenges.

I can picture any "discovery" efforts would be like a nuclear event for Kevin, I strongly suspect he is a writer of fiction in all things.

I don’t know if he has more experience with litigation and so calculated the response or if he has more experience making the worst possible choices when it comes to dealing with customers.

Wait... how are they putting stuff on sale on their website if they haven't processed all the requests for Wave 1 exchanges yet? What happens if they sell out of the stuff that people already requested in the exchange?

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Wait... how are they putting stuff on sale on their website if they haven't processed all the requests for Wave 1 exchanges yet? What happens if they sell out of the stuff that people already requested in the exchange?

AHAHAHAHHAHA......

You already *KNOW* what happens....

Don't pretend....

 TalonZahn wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Wait... how are they putting stuff on sale on their website if they haven't processed all the requests for Wave 1 exchanges yet? What happens if they sell out of the stuff that people already requested in the exchange?

AHAHAHAHHAHA......
You already *KNOW* what happens....
Don't pretend....

Have mercy.
This is the response of a "normal" human being looking at this in a reasonable way.

PB and Kevin as demonstrated are all about getting money.
Whatever method gets us to hand over some cash we cannot readily get back they are all about.
Next, it becomes rather... vague to them on what and when they are to send something back in "exchange" (Are we sure the money was not a donation or GIFT? it was a GIFT!).

So we send money to pay for shipping, but THERE IS NO PRODUCT TO SHIP!
So it is a simple matter of your shipping money is "void" since there is nothing to ship and you cannot get the money back because NO REFUNDS.
Their schedule is INCREDIBLY busy and they can barely keep track of it all, so it is understandable if your requests are missed or sent back a fair bit in the que since they are doing very important things.
They honestly will clear this confusion up as soon as they can, somewhere around the time of the heat death of the universe.
Gee-whiz, people are so uptight, they must be HATERZ and so should be ignored/banned/ridiculed because a truly favored "fan-friend" would be happy to hand over money with the only expectation that Kevin will give them what they deserve.
When is the Xmas summer surprise sale happening again?

I have kept a copy of this very dark form of thought in my head all my life, picture being raised by people like this.
It is all about them.
The sooner you realize this, the sooner you understand.
Please feel free in NOT giving benefit of the doubt and take the boots to them in all things.
Save consideration for those who deserve it.

I am ranting again...