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No, I was attacking your argument, in a very literal sense, it was dreadful to use "nobody forced you" as any sort of defence, and if it's the best you've got then there's no discussion to be had.
It was not a defense, it was a statement of fact, the whole "GW does things I do not agree with" is a silly argument or statement for that matter, its their company and they run it how they see fit... there is a magic ability where you can STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS AND MOVE ON that sort of works but if you spent THOUSANDS of ££$$$ on their products and then cry when they do things you do not agree with, well, that is really your problem... as a company they do things what ALL companies do (THEY MAKE A PROFIT), if they wish to focus on miniature making and lore and ignore gaming, that is THEIR choice, not yours... if they want to restart WHFB that is THEIR choice and not yours and its YOUR choice to stop buying any of their products and move on.... remember GW is not a political party where they need to cuddle and hug their "customers"... they are a business, they make money, everything else is a process on how to make money, if they would make more money by being open and cuddling then they would..
40k is a success and other than slight sales down (which could be because of the economic downfall the world felt) it is successful and they do exactly what they have always done, why fix something (in a business sense) that is not broken :/
its like the whole MARVEL nonsense and battleworlds, people all complain about it but in end MARVEL is still making money and therefore its a success whether we agree with the ethics or not..
welcome to capitalism buddy.
Yeesh.
Here's capitalism in a nutshell - find out what people want and give it to them.
GW don't do the first bit and it's questionable that they're currently doing the second.
Plus, Marvel as an example? The same Marvel that was in serious trouble before Disney bought them and started making movies? That Marvel?
"GW - they can't even do sockpuppets that well."
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
bitethythumb wrote: 40k is a success and other than slight sales down (which could be because of the economic downfall the world felt) it is successful and they do exactly what they have always done, why fix something (in a business sense) that is not broken :/
The wargaming and miniature markets as a whole have been steadily growing in the last years, GW being the most notable exception. So the economic crisis is hardly an excuse here.
of course they would they sell (most of the time) cheaper miniatures and books (in terms of actually starting a hobby) and therefore is more attractive, good on them, capitalism works with strong competition... its why GW made a skirmish game as by looking at things, they sell more...
you realise that other than our opinion the only way to prove either of us are wrong or right are sales... and they lead in that department.
Look I am not saying others do not make amazing minies (Perry miniatures look great if you are after the realistic historical look) but at the end of the day other than our opinion and when that fails (which it usually does because opinions are all equally wrong) its down to success and sales...
Sales level a conclusive indication of quality?
Please take a look at the current top 10 movie and album sales and then repeat that statement.
Is there way to do a really big facepalm Orkmoticon?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
they have been rather good to me lately, been able to discuss a lot with the GW manager, love their miniature guides, their paints and such are great, modelling tools are top quality, I am going to get tips from the GW manager about painting and playing later on this month, miniatures are top of the line and they are "trying" to keep a dying part of their business alive (WFB) when they could just end it and move on to things that make a profit.
This is a very short sighted view. Just because you like their products and have a good relationship with your local manager does not mean that the company as a whole has very toxic business practices that are hurtful to the hobby and it's participants as a whole. These practices have been discussed in detail on this forum, and pretending they don't exist is willful ignorance. By supporting GW you actively hurt the hobby you claim to like.
Also if you truly believe they that Age of Sigmar was made out of the kindness of GW's hearts in order to keep fantasy alive, and was not made explicitly to redirect the hobby towards a new audience (younger kids) in order to make a profit, then you are drinking some serious GW Koolaid. I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that sentence, but if it is that is some massive propaganda.
ALL COMPANIES FOCUS ON PROFIT, they would not be companies otherwise :/ even PRIVATEER PRESS focuses on profit... and any other company you think off, how they go about making profits is their choice, GW is successful in making profits therefore they are a successful company if you do not like the way they make profits, find another company...
That's not my point. You had been previously criticized for backing a company that implements business policies that are detrimental to the hobby. You replied by saying you were treated well on a personal level. I then responded that this is a short sighted view, because ultimately you are still supporting a company that is making things worse for the hobby and it's playerbase. You are right that I don't like the way they make a profit, and my argument is that you shouldn't either as a fan of the miniature game industry.
Blacksails wrote: "We're still not bankrupt guys! Everything must be fine!"
Flawless logic right there.
GW makes profits, they are FAAAAR away from bankruptcy, GW is so big that they have a lot of economic strategies to still be making profits, heck even if they lose 30% of their customers they would still be making profits (most likely close down their stores etc)
GW are a small drop in revenue away from trading in the red.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Blacksails wrote: "We're still not bankrupt guys! Everything must be fine!"
Flawless logic right there.
GW makes profits, they are FAAAAR away from bankruptcy, GW is so big that they have a lot of economic strategies to still be making profits, heck even if they lose 30% of their customers they would still be making profits (most likely close down their stores etc)
Please provide sources for this. Without sources this literally you making stuff up.
Blacksails wrote: "We're still not bankrupt guys! Everything must be fine!"
Flawless logic right there.
GW makes profits, they are FAAAAR away from bankruptcy, GW is so big that they have a lot of economic strategies to still be making profits, heck even if they lose 30% of their customers they would still be making profits (most likely close down their stores etc)
Please provide sources for this. Without sources this literally you making stuff up.
Inb4 it's confirmed to be a red shirt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 17:36:11
Blacksails wrote: "We're still not bankrupt guys! Everything must be fine!"
Flawless logic right there.
GW makes profits, they are FAAAAR away from bankruptcy, GW is so big that they have a lot of economic strategies to still be making profits, heck even if they lose 30% of their customers they would still be making profits (most likely close down their stores etc)
Please provide sources for this. Without sources this literally you making stuff up.
Blacksails wrote: Isn't GW operating on ~10M in profit out of some ~110Mish revenue?
A 30% drop would put them very much in the red.
Hence why I said they could use basic economic strategies to still be making profits like for example "CLOSING DOWN ALL STORES" etc... there are many things a company can do to make a profit and keep out of the red, GW is so big it has a lot to fall back on... look at it this way, GW can still make a profit even if it goes down to the size of say Privateer Press, they would just have to "change"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 17:37:58
Blacksails wrote: "We're still not bankrupt guys! Everything must be fine!"
Flawless logic right there.
GW makes profits, they are FAAAAR away from bankruptcy, GW is so big that they have a lot of economic strategies to still be making profits, heck even if they lose 30% of their customers they would still be making profits (most likely close down their stores etc)
Please provide sources for this. Without sources this literally you making stuff up.
Hence why I said they could use basic economic strategies to still be making profits like for example "CLOSING DOWN ALL STORES" etc... there are many things a company can do to make a profit and keep out of the red, GW is so big it has a lot to fall back on... look at it this way, GW can still make a profit even if it goes down to the size of say Privateer Press, they would just have to "change"
Which doesn't happen overnight, which has the issues of whatever contracts the stores are on, or that cutting too many things starts to eat into their own ability to produce and distribute their product effectively.
Its easy to say, hard to do.
There's also zero evidence to claim GW could just magically shrink down to the size of PP and make profit. They have obligations and overhead costs they'd have to dramatically slash that the end result wouldn't even resemble GW. Further, if GW was forced to shrink to that size, logic would then dictate it would eventually fold, seeing as the reasons it ended up there would indicate they're not making anything people want to buy.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
bitethythumb wrote:GW makes profits, they are FAAAAR away from bankruptcy, GW is so big that they have a lot of economic strategies to still be making profits, heck even if they lose 30% of their customers they would still be making profits (most likely close down their stores etc)
Blacksails wrote:Isn't GW operating on ~10M in profit out of some ~110Mish revenue?
A 30% drop would put them very much in the red.
He actually said, 30% of their customers, not 30% of their revenue.
I actually think that GW could survive losing 30% of their customers, because it would mostly be the least profitable 30%. The 'superfans' spend by far the most money, and would be the least likely to leave.
To put it another way, a superfan who spends $1000 a month is worth $12,000 a year, and just 1000 of them are worth $12 million annually. I'm sure there are way more than 1000, globally, plus, there are many that spend more than that (the FW superfans).
In our tiny group of 8 players, there are 3 in that category, with one person who easily spends $25,000 a year, because he is determined to fill his basement with brand-new-in-bag FW models and his library with LE books.
Not that I think GW should feel that it's ok to alienate 30% of its customers!!!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/08 17:49:03
They've already been closing down stores left and right, sometimes relocating them to cheaper areas, sometimes simply shutting them down. So far such measures have been unable to reverse their decline in both sales and profits.
Also, their official stores still make a very important % of their sales (in fact, way more important than their webstore). Closing them all would probably save them money, but the consequences could be disastrous for them.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
you realise that other than our opinion the only way to prove either of us are wrong or right are sales... and they lead in that department.
So by your logic one direction are the greatest band ever in the whole history of music.
again... you are saying the "greatest" as in what? greatest band in making music or greatest band that makes profits? if by greatest you mean a band that has sold more and made more profits than yes they are (if they have made more than others, I am not sure, not a big music buff) but if you mean in terms of technical skills and actual writing no, that would be Queen.... just look at it this way, a huge chunk of what made the "beatles" great was their record sales and fanbase which was mostly "girls", Beatles themselves were not that technically genius and dude lets be honest, in the music industry its all about sales and profits, look at Jazz... some of the greatest musical creators are ignored because they play jazz music and that sells less than say "pop" and "rock" or watchamacallit "hippity hop" and therefore people do not recognize them...
Is SLASH really better than Guthrie Govan?
GW as a company is the best, as a company that is in the business of making money.... GW can do a lot more as a miniature creator (even though I see their minis as some of the best, per price that is, force world is also pretty amazing, slaanesh greater daemon )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Korinov wrote: They've already been closing down stores left and right, sometimes relocating them to cheaper areas, sometimes simply shutting them down. So far such measures have been unable to reverse their decline in both sales and profits.
Also, their official stores still make a very important % of their sales (in fact, way more important than their webstore). Closing them all would probably save them money, but the consequences could be disastrous for them.
I would have no idea, I know that google tells me that in 2014 they closed about 20 stores and opened 27 new ones (one manager stores) and look I get it, their stores are important I am just saying that they have MULTIPLE things that could be done that would keep them in the miniature market... everything I said were just examples, I am not in their staff or payroll I have no idea what they have planned but I know that any large business has BACKUP plans and such when things fail, GW has a lot of "costs" and profits that could be refocused.
Basically what I am saying is GW is staying with us for a LONG LONG TIME, unless everyone just stops buying their products all of a sudden... bankruptcy is FAR away for them
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 17:55:09
He actually said, 30% of their customers, not 30% of their revenue.
I actually think that GW could survive losing 30% of their customers, because it would mostly be the least profitable 30%. The 'superfans' spend by far the most money, and would be the least likely to leave.
To put it another way, a superfan who spends $1000 a month is worth $12,000 a year, and just 1000 of them are worth $12 million annually. I'm sure there are way more than 1000, globally, plus, there are many that spend more than that (the FW superfans).
In our tiny group of 8 players, there are 3 in that category, with one person who easily spends $25,000 a year, because he is determined to fill his basement with brand-new-in-bag FW models and his library with LE books.
Not that I think GW should feel that it's ok to alienate 30% of its customers!!!
I'm aware of what he said, but there's no reliable way to determine how much revenue 30% of customers brings in, much less what kind of customers. Isn't there some rule...80/20 or something? Something about 20% of your customer base being 80% of your revenue...or something, I don't know.
Point is, with such a vague statement about losing 30% of customers its as reasonable to say it'd be roughly equivalent to 30% of their revenue...or 10%, or 90%. There's no way to know with GW.
However, I'm sure we can all agree that losing 30% of your customers is a pretty fething bad thing, and would likely result in GW operating in the red.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
He actually said, 30% of their customers, not 30% of their revenue.
I actually think that GW could survive losing 30% of their customers, because it would mostly be the least profitable 30%. The 'superfans' spend by far the most money, and would be the least likely to leave.
To put it another way, a superfan who spends $1000 a month is worth $12,000 a year, and just 1000 of them are worth $12 million annually. I'm sure there are way more than 1000, globally, plus, there are many that spend more than that (the FW superfans).
In our tiny group of 8 players, there are 3 in that category, with one person who easily spends $25,000 a year, because he is determined to fill his basement with brand-new-in-bag FW models and his library with LE books.
Not that I think GW should feel that it's ok to alienate 30% of its customers!!!
I'm aware of what he said, but there's no reliable way to determine how much revenue 30% of customers brings in, much less what kind of customers. Isn't there some rule...80/20 or something? Something about 20% of your customer base being 80% of your revenue...or something, I don't know.
Point is, with such a vague statement about losing 30% of customers its as reasonable to say it'd be roughly equivalent to 30% of their revenue...or 10%, or 90%. There's no way to know with GW.
However, I'm sure we can all agree that losing 30% of your customers is a pretty fething bad thing, and would likely result in GW operating in the red.
To be blunt, bitethythumb isn't showing the strongest grasp of financial terminology, I don't think "customers" can be taken at face value, it likely he means "money" or "custom" may be closer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 17:58:45
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Hence why I said they could use basic economic strategies to still be making profits like for example "CLOSING DOWN ALL STORES" etc... there are many things a company can do to make a profit and keep out of the red, GW is so big it has a lot to fall back on... look at it this way, GW can still make a profit even if it goes down to the size of say Privateer Press, they would just have to "change"
Which doesn't happen overnight, which has the issues of whatever contracts the stores are on, or that cutting too many things starts to eat into their own ability to produce and distribute their product effectively.
Its easy to say, hard to do.
There's also zero evidence to claim GW could just magically shrink down to the size of PP and make profit. They have obligations and overhead costs they'd have to dramatically slash that the end result wouldn't even resemble GW. Further, if GW was forced to shrink to that size, logic would then dictate it would eventually fold, seeing as the reasons it ended up there would indicate they're not making anything people want to buy.
neither does going bankrupt happen over night or do your standards only apply to your reasoning, so when someone tells you "GW is almost bankrupt" think to your comment about things happening overnight and realize that it applies both ways.... and yes logic would dictate that if they slashed their staff and overhead costs they would not be GW as we see them, but that is life in the business world.. if say a Chinese donganaire gave privateer press £500,000,000 every year for 10 years do you think that Privateer press would still be the same Privateer Press as you see them?
I see a lot of double standards in these discussions.
Hence why I said they could use basic economic strategies to still be making profits like for example "CLOSING DOWN ALL STORES" etc... there are many things a company can do to make a profit and keep out of the red, GW is so big it has a lot to fall back on... look at it this way, GW can still make a profit even if it goes down to the size of say Privateer Press, they would just have to "change"
Closing down their branch network would remove 90%+ of their marketing and outreach to new and existing customers.
If GW gets to a point where they close down their entire branch network, it's a safe bet they're on their last legs.
Hence why I said they could use basic economic strategies to still be making profits like for example "CLOSING DOWN ALL STORES" etc... there are many things a company can do to make a profit and keep out of the red, GW is so big it has a lot to fall back on... look at it this way, GW can still make a profit even if it goes down to the size of say Privateer Press, they would just have to "change"
Closing down their branch network would remove 90%+ of their marketing and outreach to new and existing customers.
If GW gets to a point where they close down their entire branch network, it's a safe bet they're on their last legs.
I think the store network currently costs more than it generates in revenue (or very close) so if they could simply walk away, it would probably be for the best.
They can't just walk away though, of course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 18:09:04
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
You can go home one day, and come back to work the next day to find a bill on the doormat you simply can't pay. Usually a tax bill.
talk about not making sense, if you cannot manage your finances to the point where you get magic bills that you are unprepared for than yes you will go bankrupt, but seriously? what bills are like that... you know exactly what you pay for and which services you use... if you get a phone bill that is very high chances are you called someone at a high fee... that is YOUR fault.
I have not heard are more benign statement that this so far... and who does not pay their "tax" bills properly? that they, always pay your taxes and always put money away in some savings as an insurance policy... pay for what you can, use what you pay for.
But, nobody is saying "GW is almost bankrupt" people are saying "GW will go bankrupt if the trend of falling revenue and profit is not reversed."
in many many years sure... maybe... but like I said, they have many means to salvage themselves
I literally have no idea what point you're trying to make with the Chinese man example.
the other user stated that if GW falls to the size of privateer press it will not be GW and I am pointing out that if PRIVATEER PRESS becomes a multi million company it will no longer be privateer press as we see it... too complex?
--- by the way I know perfectly well my economics terminology (to the extent that a none economist knows), English is not my main language though so maybe that is where we differ... either way, customers is money... you live in a capitalist society, everything is money, deal with it or travel back in time to soviet Russia.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 18:25:28
For GW to lose 30 % of there buyers(not players) it would be a disaster, you only need 10 people to spend 100$ to match a 1000$ a month spender, and that super fan will certenly be a far rarer occerance than lesser purchasers.
if GW is propped up so drastically by super fans I would think that there game is shrinking far faster than it even appears.
You can go home one day, and come back to work the next day to find a bill on the doormat you simply can't pay. Usually a tax bill.
talk about not making sense, if you cannot manage your finances to the point where you get magic bills that you are unprepared for than yes you will go bankrupt, but seriously? what bills are like that... you know exactly what you pay for and which services you use... if you get a phone bill that is very high chances are you called someone at a high fee... that is YOUR fault.
I have not heard are more benign statement that this so far... and who does not pay their "tax" bills properly? that they, always pay your taxes and always put money away in some savings as an insurance policy... pay for what you can, use what you pay for.
But, nobody is saying "GW is almost bankrupt" people are saying "GW will go bankrupt if the trend of falling revenue and profit is not reversed."
in many many years sure... maybe... but like I said, they have many means to salvage themselves
I literally have no idea what point you're trying to make with the Chinese man example.
the other user stated that if GW falls to the size of privateer press it will not be GW and I am pointing out that if PRIVATEER PRESS becomes a multi million company it will no longer be privateer press as we see it... too complex?
--- by the way I know perfectly well my economics terminology (to the extent that a none economist knows), English is not my main language though so maybe that is where we differ... either way, customers is money... you live in a capitalist society, everything is money, deal with it or travel back in time to soviet Russia.
You're utterly clueless.
It is possible to go bankrupt overnight. You know how I know? Because I've been involved in a company where it happened. At no point did I say you're unaware it may happen (nice strawman) but if you're in that position, one unexpected or larger than expected expense can be all it takes to push things over the edge.
It will not take many years for GW to 'go,' their net profit is <5% of their revenue, it will take a relatively small unexpected drop in revenue without a proportional drop in expenditure OT send them into the red. Note I said "in the red" which means at a loss, this is not the same as bankrupt.
The reason I didn't understand your example is because someone investing a ludicrous amount into a company because reasons is NOTHING LIKE (I can randomly shout too) a company growing to the same size through commercial success.
Please stop banging on about capitalism, it's getting tiresome and it isn't doing your argument any favours.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/08 18:31:28
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
That's not my point. You had been previously criticized for backing a company that implements business policies that are detrimental to the hobby. You replied by saying you were treated well on a personal level. I then responded that this is a short sighted view, because ultimately you are still supporting a company that is making things worse for the hobby and it's playerbase. You are right that I don't like the way they make a profit, and my argument is that you shouldn't either as a fan of the miniature game industry.
you are literally telling me how to behave... lets break it down..
"You had been previously criticized for backing a company that implements business policies that are detrimental to the hobby"
no... they have not, as been shown by many others that other companies are steadily growing, anything detrimental done is only detrimental to GW..
"You replied by saying you were treated well on a personal level. I then responded that this is a short sighted view, because ultimately you are still supporting a company that is making things worse for the hobby and it's playerbase."
I am part of that playerbase and for me they have not done things to make it worse... if others believe they have made it worse for them that is their choice, I cannot base my opinions and likes and dislikes on how "others" see them... that would be wrong and foolish
"You are right that I don't like the way they make a profit, and my argument is that you shouldn't either as a fan of the miniature game industry!"
that is worse than me supporting GW, me having to base my opinions and my experience because someone else says so... that is like saying "Do not buy apple products because I think "insert other products" is better and do things better"...
my whole argument is that in a capitalist society we have a freedom to choose which company and how we experience it works, I have not had a bad experience with GW (apart from the silly prices but you gotta make money to pay the talented staff, but I have ways around that, like buying a set of pin vices and drill bits for £10) so why should I change my perception of them because "others" have?
if 10 people jumped off a cliff should I jump off as well? even though those ten people have said "the cliff is all wet and dirty and we do not like it" when I am like "but I like this cliff"
again, welcome to capitalism... your choice to buy or not to buy, your choice is as equally correct as mine
if 10 people jumped off a cliff should I jump off as well?
Would you mind?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
