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 Hoyt wrote:
Yeah the Chimera is overpriced and should also drop in points, it's the side armour 10 that really kills it, being able to be boltered to death on such a large portion of the vehicle really hampers it, I'd rather have Rhino armour stats if it meant a drop in points.

I'd rather keep the AV12 front (it has its uses with enough of them) and drop back to ~50pts, 55-60 with an autocannon turret.

I'd love to see Guard vehicles get a "Reinforced Armor" upgrade.

Something like 20 points for boosting their side armor values by a point.

Hell, you know what?

"Reactive Armor"--10 points for a boost to the side and rear armor values until they suffer a penetrating hit to those facings.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
Yeah the Chimera is overpriced and should also drop in points, it's the side armour 10 that really kills it, being able to be boltered to death on such a large portion of the vehicle really hampers it, I'd rather have Rhino armour stats if it meant a drop in points.

I'd rather keep the AV12 front (it has its uses with enough of them) and drop back to ~50pts, 55-60 with an autocannon turret.

50 pts is reasonable, I'd happily pay that, then the Hellhound variants could be around 75 pts I think.

 Hoyt wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
Yeah the Chimera is overpriced and should also drop in points, it's the side armour 10 that really kills it, being able to be boltered to death on such a large portion of the vehicle really hampers it, I'd rather have Rhino armour stats if it meant a drop in points.

I'd rather keep the AV12 front (it has its uses with enough of them) and drop back to ~50pts, 55-60 with an autocannon turret.

50 pts is reasonable, I'd happily pay that, then the Hellhound variants could be around 75 pts I think.

Make it so.

Give them cool formation like in the SM 7th edition. I really wanna see those guardsmen shining and not only 7 up to 10 tanks deployed with only 2 infantry squads.

Oh hell yes, drop the prices on the Hellhound and its ilk. 130 points for an AV12/12/10 tank that has to get really realllyyyy close to the enemy to actually engage them (Template range for one of them) with 3HP and BS3 is just plain stupid. Drop the Chimera to 45-50 points and make the Autocannon a free upgrade (your dropping a shot for that +2 Strength) and drop the Taurox down to 35 points (an 11/10/10 vehicle with BS3 and 3HP is a joke at 75 points) and we can start talking again.

Whilst we are here the Earthshaker cannon on the Basilisk needs to be able to fire directly again. Or at least reduce the minimal range down to 12". 36" - otherwise known as half the length ways board - is way to far for a minimal range. And drop the price on them too.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Just ignore him. He appears to be one of these SM players whom is butthurt because 50+ Lasgun shots killed one of his precious Tactical Marines, and he was only able to wipe out 98% of the IG unit in his next turn as the result.

That is a bit of a random personal attack. I'm actually a pure blooded Guard player, and have been for many years. I just happen to see merit in mass lasgun tactics. The biggest mark against them is the same as with any horde army, the time and effort it takes to play.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Whilst we are here the Earthshaker cannon on the Basilisk needs to be able to fire directly again.

Earthshakers can fire directly.

 Trickstick wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Just ignore him. He appears to be one of these SM players whom is butthurt because 50+ Lasgun shots killed one of his precious Tactical Marines, and he was only able to wipe out 98% of the IG unit in his next turn as the result.

That is a bit of a random personal attack. I'm actually a pure blooded Guard player, and have been for many years. I just happen to see merit in mass lasgun tactics. The biggest mark against them is the same as with any horde army, the time and effort it takes to play.

Sorry, I do get a bit butthurt over this subject. Sure, 50 odd shots do seem impressive but when you are inflicting 1 to 2 wounds with all those dice.... And then your opponent fires back and wipes most of the squad... It just gets to you after a while.
your sections keep pumping out shots and they seem to do nothing but your opponents models pretty much just have to fart at your infantry to kill half of them.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Whilst we are here the Earthshaker cannon on the Basilisk needs to be able to fire directly again.

Earthshakers can fire directly.

Not in the new codex. They are Barrage only with a 36" minimal range.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Whilst we are here the Earthshaker cannon on the Basilisk needs to be able to fire directly again.

Earthshakers can fire directly.

Not in the new codex. They are Barrage only with a 36" minimal range.

They are barrage with a 36" minimum range. The barrage rules (brb 160) state that barrage weapons can fire directly within minimum range. The only weapons in the codex that can't fire directly are storm eagle rockets and the deathstrike, because they are specifically prohibited.

Oh boy, where to start.

With the, let's say rapid expansion, of the lethality of the 40K battlefield, the Imperial Guard have been left behind like their traditional epithet.

Infantry: these need to be like the Renegades list in Vraks. Cheap as dirt, and 1 special weapon/vox/banner per 5, 1 heavy weapon per 10. Instead of 35 base with 3 for each additional one, make them 50 base (to represent flak armour and militia training) and 4 for each additional one.

Stormtroopers: Skitarii and the Scouts frankly make a mockery of these guys. They are still one of the better plasma delivery systems out there with built-in deep strike and move through cover, but they are still too expensive. They should be 10 points each, no more.

Oddball stuff: Ogryn need to be cheaper, rough riders need some kind of special rule, psychic battle squad should not suck.

Tanks: I had briefly hoped tanks would have a resurgence with the reduction of melta-spam out there (everyone is going grav first and plasma second), but there is a LOT of haywire, gauss, and now D out there. And it's not like crazy grav spam can't still easily delete vehicles by itself. I don't know what can be done here, since the Russes were already significantly reduced in price. A tank formation that lets them fire overwatch would be nice, especially if it let you snap fire blasts (and cause D3 or D6 automatic hits like flamers, for example) .

Really, a lot of things could be fixed just by giving guard some formations, especially ones that let them take stuff for free. A gladius-like formation for Steel Legion with a bunch of free chimeras, for example.

I can't remember if I've brought this up before, but one thing that really bugs me is that most of our equipment seems to be based on SM prices.

Now, this isn't too bad with ranged weapons - where only the firer's BS matters. The problems really start when you get to melee weapons. e.g. a Veteran Sergeant pays about 60% of his base cost for a power sword, which he swings at WS4 S4 I4. In contrast, a guardsman sergeant pays 300% of his base cost for a power sword that he swings at WS3 S3 I3.

Why is he paying so much more for an inferior weapon?

It's the same problem with our HQs. A SM Chapter Master pays ~25% of his base cost for a S8 power fist, whilst our Lord Commissar pays ~40% of his base cost for a S6 power fist.

Pricing equipment this way undermines the whole idea of 'cheap but weak' characters.

 Hoyt wrote:
Yeah the Chimera is overpriced and should also drop in points,

If the SM book is any guide, Chimeras will be FREE if you take enough 3 Platoons and a CHQ.

vipoid wrote:I can't remember if I've brought this up before, but one thing that really bugs me is that most of our equipment seems to be based on SM prices.

Now, this isn't too bad with ranged weapons - where only the firer's BS matters. The problems really start when you get to melee weapons. e.g. a Veteran Sergeant pays about 60% of his base cost for a power sword, which he swings at WS4 S4 I4. In contrast, a guardsman sergeant pays 300% of his base cost for a power sword that he swings at WS3 S3 I3.

Why is he paying so much more for an inferior weapon?

It's the same problem with our HQs. A SM Chapter Master pays ~25% of his base cost for a S8 power fist, whilst our Lord Commissar pays ~40% of his base cost for a S6 power fist.

Pricing equipment this way undermines the whole idea of 'cheap but weak' characters.

This as well. There is no way that a Power Weapon is worth 10 points for an IG officer.

HandofMars wrote:
Tanks: I had briefly hoped tanks would have a resurgence with the reduction of melta-spam out there (everyone is going grav first and plasma second), but there is a LOT of haywire, gauss, and now D out there. And it's not like crazy grav spam can't still easily delete vehicles by itself. I don't know what can be done here, since the Russes were already significantly reduced in price. A tank formation that lets them fire overwatch would be nice, especially if it let you snap fire blasts (and cause D3 or D6 automatic hits like flamers, for example) .

*Chuckles* the price reduction came with the massive nerf that was the removal of the LB rule, essentially invalidating a lot of tank builds. And the Demolisher and Executioner where actually ramped up in price.
If we ever get a decent formation that does something like that before the Space Smurfs I will rejoice. But given that we IG peasants are not allowed to out perform the gods of Timmyhood in any way shape or form I sadly doubt it will ever happen.

 master of ordinance wrote:

This as well. There is no way that a Power Weapon is worth 10 points for an IG officer.

I hate to tell you this, but our officers pay 15pts for their power weapons...

 vipoid wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

This as well. There is no way that a Power Weapon is worth 10 points for an IG officer.

I hate to tell you this, but our officers pay 15pts for their power weapons...

Ack! Thanks for that, I havnt used them in that long that I had forgotten!

Many of our tanks are already organized into squads, so I don't know how vehicle formations for certain tanks would work unless they're very specific. A formation of deathstrikes would be amusing.

I'd like to see the option that a Leman Russ tank in a squadron can be upgrade to a tank squadron commander... what that guy would do I don't know, but it seems appropriate.

I could see a formation of Hellhounds combining their shots to use a single apocalypse flamer template.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
Yeah the Chimera is overpriced and should also drop in points,

If the SM book is any guide, Chimeras will be FREE if you take enough 3 Platoons and a CHQ.

I don't think this would ever happen. There is a clear difference in gains between the 20% bonus a marine squad would get by having free rhinos, and the almost 100% bonus you'd get for a IG squads getting free chimeras. I think more realistically would be some sort of multi-platoon Cadian formation where one squad per platoon gets a free chimera.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
Yeah the Chimera is overpriced and should also drop in points,

If the SM book is any guide, Chimeras will be FREE if you take enough 3 Platoons and a CHQ.

If that actually comes to pass, most of the old IG players will cackle with glee. We've got enough Chimeras to choke a hippo. Now, actually fitting them on the table may be a completely different problem...

 vipoid wrote:
I can't remember if I've brought this up before, but one thing that really bugs me is that most of our equipment seems to be based on SM prices.

Now, this isn't too bad with ranged weapons - where only the firer's BS matters. The problems really start when you get to melee weapons. e.g. a Veteran Sergeant pays about 60% of his base cost for a power sword, which he swings at WS4 S4 I4. In contrast, a guardsman sergeant pays 300% of his base cost for a power sword that he swings at WS3 S3 I3.

Why is he paying so much more for an inferior weapon?

It's the same problem with our HQs. A SM Chapter Master pays ~25% of his base cost for a S8 power fist, whilst our Lord Commissar pays ~40% of his base cost for a S6 power fist.

Pricing equipment this way undermines the whole idea of 'cheap but weak' characters.

Because you're not paying for WS, S or I. You did that when you bought your guardsman/Sergeant. You're paying for the AP. Is the guardsman's power sword worse AP than the Sergeants?

Breton wrote:

Because you're not paying for WS, S or I. You did that when you bought your guardsman/Sergeant. You're paying for the AP. Is the guardsman's power sword worse AP than the Sergeants?

But that's the thing - when you take into account the base price of the models, the guardsman is paying 5 times more than the space marine.

Are guardmen getting 5 times the value out of AP3?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Let's be fair though, the problem there is not worst for IG. Bolter marines suffer even worse, because they pay over twice as much for +1s - which is unlikely to make much difference with Wraithknights carving through your lines.

Let's be honest here.

Bolter marines pay over twice as much for +1s and ap 5 on their guns, and frag grenades, and a 3+ armor save, and +1 to almost every (baseline) stat that they have.

While I'm not trying to argue that tacs are amazing or anything (this thread isn't about them), they're hardly just "guardsmen with +1 strength to their guns for twice the points."

 master of ordinance wrote:


Whilst we are here the Earthshaker cannon on the Basilisk needs to be able to fire directly again. Or at least reduce the minimal range down to 12". 36" - otherwise known as half the length ways board - is way to far for a minimal range. And drop the price on them too.

Wait, earthshakers can't fire directly? Where's that rule? o.O

 morganfreeman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


Whilst we are here the Earthshaker cannon on the Basilisk needs to be able to fire directly again. Or at least reduce the minimal range down to 12". 36" - otherwise known as half the length ways board - is way to far for a minimal range. And drop the price on them too.

Wait, earthshakers can't fire directly? Where's that rule? o.O

Read the Barrage rules in the rulebook, it states barrage can fire indirectly as long as its beyond minimum range, or fire directly normally

 aka_mythos wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
Yeah the Chimera is overpriced and should also drop in points,

If the SM book is any guide, Chimeras will be FREE if you take enough 3 Platoons and a CHQ.

I don't think this would ever happen. There is a clear difference in gains between the 20% bonus a marine squad would get by having free rhinos, and the almost 100% bonus you'd get for a IG squads getting free chimeras. I think more realistically would be some sort of multi-platoon Cadian formation where one squad per platoon gets a free chimera.

The Marines get FREE Razorbacks or FREE Drop Pods; IG Chimeras are grossly overpriced, so FREE is a fair price. Chimeras for everyone who can take them as Dedicated Transports.

I only have a half-dozen Chimeras, so there's really not that much self-interest here. If I were serious about it meching up, I'd have more like a dozen Chimeras.

Most of what could be said has already been said, but one thing I think would be cool is if we brought more stuff in from the 30k Solar Auxilla and Militia books.
-If GW doesn't want Banblades in the books, at least give us some 30k Maclador's.
-Replace Lasguns with the lasrifles from there as well, with the atachments that can make it Heavy 2 or a one shot multi-laser.
-Macladors or Dracossans as Alternative transports.
-Transfer a lot of the vehicle upgrades over as well.
-Attachable medic squads as elites.
-Give us either Thunderbolts or Vultures in the main dex.
-Recon squads with Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Stealth, and the ability to all take Sniper Rifles

Besides the 30k stuff, here's what else
-Chimera points decrease and Autocannon turret.
-Bring back the removed vehicles, and characters. Especially Marbo
-BS 4 upgrades for vehicles
-Actually make sentinels useful. Not sure how to do this
-Hellhound and variants to around 70-80 apiece
-Upgrade Voxcasters
-New fortifications, mines, emplacements, heck even rigged unerground exploisives which turns the terrain into difficult of dangerous
-Endless swarm rules
-Vendettas to maybe 150 pts?
-Regimental doctrines. If GW can make chapter tactics, this should be no problem.
-Formations. Not Decurion level, but the Imperial Guard is supposed to be very disciplined and organizational, yet I think we have fewer formations then the orks.

Will post more as I think them up

 aka_mythos wrote:
Many of our tanks are already organized into squads, so I don't know how vehicle formations for certain tanks would work unless they're very specific. A formation of deathstrikes would be amusing.

I'd like to see the option that a Leman Russ tank in a squadron can be upgrade to a tank squadron commander... what that guy would do I don't know, but it seems appropriate.

I could see a formation of Hellhounds combining their shots to use a single apocalypse flamer template.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
Yeah the Chimera is overpriced and should also drop in points,

If the SM book is any guide, Chimeras will be FREE if you take enough 3 Platoons and a CHQ.

I don't think this would ever happen. There is a clear difference in gains between the 20% bonus a marine squad would get by having free rhinos, and the almost 100% bonus you'd get for a IG squads getting free chimeras. I think more realistically would be some sort of multi-platoon Cadian formation where one squad per platoon gets a free chimera.

Dark Angels Ravenwing Support Squads are vehicles with overwatch, so there is precedent.

That is something I never thought of....I like it!

Bring all the imperial armour second edition stuff into the normal codex

make guard vehicles BS4 (tank commander bs5 and pask bs6)

Lumbering behemoth

defensive weapons rule - so when they are assaulted the tanks can fire all their hull mounted and sponsor and pintle weapons at normal BS (maybe not main gun)

increase hull points to 5

Ratlings get Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Stealth, and Sniper Rifles at BS4 for 6 points a model?

Astra Militarum Infantry Company
Core: 1-2
Auxiliary: 1+
Command: 0-3

Infantry Platoon (Core):
1x Commissar or Junior Officer
1x Platoon Command Squad
2x Infantry Platoons
1x Veteran Squad
0-1 Sentinel Squadron (Armored or Scout)

[If two Infantry Platoons are taken with a Commissar and Junior Officer all Dedicated Transports are free.]

Infantry Company Command (Command):
1x Company Command Squad
0-1 Commissar
0-1 Astropath
0-1 Priest
0-1 Engineer

Armored Fist Command (Command):
1x Tank Commander Squadron
0-1 Tech

Lord Commissar Command (Command):
1x Lord Commissar
0-10 Commissars
0-1 Transport

Primaris Psyker Conclave (Command):
1x Primaris Psyker
1x Wyrdvane Psykers
0-1 Transport

Armored Fist Task Force (Auxiliary):
1-5 Engineers
3-5 Leman Russ Squadrons
0-1 Basilisk Battery
0-1 Wyvern Battery
0-3 Manticors
0-1 Death-Strike

Militarum Tempestus (Auxiliary):
1x Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
2-5 Militarum Tempestus Squads

Air Defense Force (Auxiliary):
1x Hydra Battery
1x Vendetta Squadron

Scout Platoon (Auxiliary):
2-5 Veteran Squads [Must take forward Sentries]
0-3 Special Weapons Squads
0-3 Ratings

Air-Assault Squadron (Auxiliary):
1x Valkyrie Assault Gunships
1x Vendetta Gun Ships

Artillery Support (Auxiliary):
1 Basilisk Battery
1 Scout Sentinel Squadron

Heavy Siege Platoon (Auxiliary):
1-2 Ogryns
1-2 Bullgryns
0-1 Leman Russ Demolisher Squadron

Armored Recon (Auxiliary):
1-3 Scout Sentinel Squadrons
0-3 Hellhound Squadron
0-3 Rough Riders

 sumi808 wrote:
make guard vehicles BS4 (tank commander bs5 and pask bs6)

No.

If anything IG stats are TOO good. BS3 across the board, except specialists and characters.

Even better if Guardsmen go to WS2.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 sumi808 wrote:
make guard vehicles BS4 (tank commander bs5 and pask bs6)

No.

If anything IG stats are TOO good. BS3 across the board, except specialists and characters.

Even better if Guardsmen go to WS2.

Keep us at BS3 base, but allow us to purchase Veteran Crew's as an upgrade to make them BS4. 10 points should cover it.

Yeah, BS4 should be saved for stormies, vets, and senior officers, commissars, and advisors/non-Guardsmen.

I wouldn't be sad if there continued to be no veteran vehicle BS4, but I wouldn't be too excited either if there magically was the option in the new book.

I can see the Navy options (aircraft) getting some sort of Ace upgrade, which could be +1BS and/or upgraded Jink save. That would be a fair and reasonable compromise to me.

Give an air combat squadron bonus since flyers have fallen out of favor, so for example put the guard's "inspiring presence" rule if you run 3 vendettas or Valkyries. This will even out the formation divide in 7th.