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 Vaktathi wrote:

 Quintinus wrote:

Let's look at the other writers for 5th-6th edition.
Phil Kelly, who is an absolutely poor rules writer. His power levels vary far too much, from unkillable falcons to good-for-3-months Chaos Marines to unlimited-range Serpentshield spam. Most tend to be slightly higher on power level and dominate tournaments but have poor staying power and the worst internal balance of any author
Robin Cruddace, power levels are all over the place. Imperial Guard are extremely good, while Tyranids are horrible until formations come out for them
Jeremy Vetock, power levels are all over the place. Beginning to see a trend here? Writes the underpowered mess Dark Angels, while also managing to whip up the Tau codex (which I admittedly quite like)

Then Mat Ward, whose books were consistently high power level. But hey, he never did anything that was appalling such as 2++ rerollable invulnerable saves

Neither did anyone else really until after 5th edition, and they shortly stopped attributing authorship within like 8 or 9 months IIRC after 6E came out on codex books IIRC and Ward wasn't listed as author on anything after 5E.

Still didn't refute my point, Mat Ward was overall a much more consistent writer and did more good things for the game than any other single writer.

2 points for 6++ Mark of Tzeentch. 3++ stormshields were powerful but they actually made terminators worthwhile. Grey Knights were extremely good, 6th edition toned them down while making Necrons (for a short time) king of the pile, and still managed to compete very well. Keep in mind, I'm only focusing on 40k here.

And he did that in large part by giving lots of factions everything and the kitchen sink. Look at the 5E blood angels book. They went from an army that was largely codex-adherent in nature with a focus on speed and close combat, to suddenly being the chapter that could field the most psykers (aside from GK's), field the most walkers, field the most heavy armor, got Fast on everything *and* still kept (and enhanced) its speed/assault bonuses.

Iirc Blood Angels already had a unique dreadnought (The Furioso), and a unique Predator. As for the most psykers, it makes sense - Sanguinious was a psyker. And hey, fluff changes - just ask the Black Templars and their new 1k chapter strength. I wouldn't say they had the kitchen sink.

Similarly, C:SM came out in 2008, it made every other SM book rather pointless to play in comparison, and every SM army I saw was "Vulkan+Hammernaters+tons of Melta" until Kelly's Space Wolves came out. I literally didn't see an SM army without Vulkan (and I think Hammernators too but I could be wrong there) for a full year.

I'm not saying any of GW's writers were perfect, they have never been, and your criticisms of the others are quite valid, but it's hard to say that Ward was so much better and the problems were all with everyone else.

Right, and after Space Wolves came out you didn't see anything except for Grey Hunter/Runepriest/Long Fang spam. Rather, C:SM made every Space Marine book "pointless" to play because they were so bad.

The concept of an Imperial warp demon is FAR more interesting and original than anything Phil Kelly has ever come up with. Robin Cruddace made some cool characters too at least.

That's certainly the first time I've ever heard of the Sanguinor descried as such. Potentially a cool concept in theory, but really failed in the execution for many. Much like many tried to spin Draigo's tale into a tragic sisyphean one after the 2010 GK book, but wasn't exactly terribly what the average reader would have gotten from reading his fluff entry.

What did Phil Kelly do? Create wolfy mcwolfwolferson riding a wolf with his wolf claws?

Much like Ward's renaming of Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons to Blood Fists for no reason, and sillyness like Bloodstrike missiles, or the very name "Sanguinor"? Effectively "thing-that-color-of-blood", the same way a tormetor would be a "thing-that-torments"?

Sanguinor is pretty obviously a spin-off of Sanguinius so I don't see what the deal is with that one, especially since he's purported perhaps to be the ghost of the primarch. Maybe I'm not an "average" reader though, I thought it was neat.
Blood Fists and Bloodstrike missiles are a bit silly, but really not close to Wolf Lord with Wolf Claws On Thunderwolf accompanied by Wolf Guard and Wolf Priest with Cyberwolves.

It was mentioned at a Games Day iirc, I'll see about finding it.

First time I've heard that. It's hard to ascribe specific mechanics like that to someone though when they're not mentioned in any credits or as an author. Not saying it's impossible, but never seen any proof or even heard rumor of it before today.

EDIT: Had a big reply written up, internet ate it, suffice to say I disagree but don't want to take it any more off topic or re-write it

I am having a lot of fun with the current book. But I am not competitive at all.

Formations would be nice to see. I want to see a horde formation with "send in the next wave" rule akin to the last dex, or similar to the tyranids " endless swarm" formation. That would be loads of fun!

Veteran crews for tanks would be cool, rather than bonus bs why not allow them to ignore crew shaken and crew stunned results? would be interesting change and fit with idea they been through and seen alot war

 sumi808 wrote:
Veteran crews for tanks would be cool, rather than bonus bs why not allow them to ignore crew shaken and crew stunned results? would be interesting change and fit with idea they been through and seen alot war

I would rather see genuine benefits for veteran vehicle crews than just "Bonus BS" or "Ignore Crew Shaken/Stunned".

It would be cool to see a veteran Demolisher crew getting some kind of benefit versus targets in fortifications, or a veteran Punisher crew being able to gain Skyfire for a turn, a veteran Vanquisher crew getting Strength D versus Monstrous Creatures, a veteran Sentinel pilot getting some kind of unique ability, etc etc.

What I think they may do is duplicate the Mechanicus Canticles and give a series of orders the effectiveness of which depends on the number of infantry squads on the table.

Which would have the side effect of encouraging people to buy lots of models.

These are mostly great ideas so far, some further ones that I have, mostly ideas for new units, as almost everything has been said for modyfing old units.
-Have a medium tank that is a regular tank. This was suggested earlier, and I think it's a good idea. Make it a repulse tank with 13/11/10 armor to give the guard some speed. Turret options suh as TL Autocannon or Lascannon, I can't think of any real unique weapons at the moment.
-Minefields 10-20 points apiece for a minefield around as big as an Aegis defense lines long section. Enemy units moving over it take D6 S4 AP 4 hits for every ten models in anti-personal minefield, AT ones cause non-Skimmer vehicles to take one S8 AP 2 hit on the rear armor that auto-immobilizes on a 5+. Can only have a maximum of one for every other fortification on the field. Give the Guard three-four fortification slots.
-Combat Engineers. Come with Shotguns stock. Can Bolster Defenses. Can take new special weapon Spigot Launchers(still working on rules. Mortar style explosion that reduces terrain cover saves by one). Can take Demo-Charges, melta-bombs, and specialized grenades.
-Snipers, in either squad or character form or both. Character would be like Enginseers or Preists. Both should have Infiltrate, Move Through Cover and Camo-Cloaks default. Squad should have BS 4, character BS 5.
-Medics. Either have attachable elites section or allow all squads to grab a medkit.
-Trenches, around 20 pts each, only 5+ cover.
These are just rough ideas, I'll add more as I finish designs them.

 saithor wrote:
-Have a medium tank that is a regular tank. This was suggested earlier, and I think it's a good idea. Make it a repulse tank with 13/11/10 armor to give the guard some speed. Turret options suh as TL Autocannon or Lascannon, I can't think of any real unique weapons at the moment.

We already have the chassis in the form of the Hellhound variants. 12/12/10 Fast is a perfect medium tank. Just keep the Hellhounds to their template/blast weapons, then add a second variant with, as you said, autocannons, lascannons, and a vanquisher style cannon.

Hell, you could even make them into a Razorback-esque vehicle with a reduced passenger capacity for things like command squads.

But now I'm dreaming.

Alcibiades wrote:
What I think they may do is duplicate the Mechanicus Canticles and give a series of orders the effectiveness of which depends on the number of infantry squads on the table.

Which would have the side effect of encouraging people to buy lots of models.

Or you could take the more common sense approach and have them using the Doctrina Imperatives that Skitarii have.

Mechanicus Canticles really aren't impressive outside of the formations where Skitarii units count for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 saithor wrote:
These are mostly great ideas so far, some further ones that I have, mostly ideas for new units, as almost everything has been said for modyfing old units.
-Have a medium tank that is a regular tank. This was suggested earlier, and I think it's a good idea. Make it a repulse tank with 13/11/10 armor to give the guard some speed. Turret options suh as TL Autocannon or Lascannon, I can't think of any real unique weapons at the moment.

Ew, no. The Guard doesn't need speed. We don't need a medium tank--we need our heavy tanks to actually be worth taking. Adding a new vehicle to the mix doesn't fix that issue, it just adds something to distract from the issue.

-Minefields 10-20 points apiece for a minefield around as big as an Aegis defense lines long section. Enemy units moving over it take D6 S4 AP 4 hits for every ten models in anti-personal minefield, AT ones cause non-Skimmer vehicles to take one S8 AP 2 hit on the rear armor that auto-immobilizes on a 5+. Can only have a maximum of one for every other fortification on the field. Give the Guard three-four fortification slots.

AT mines not affecting skimmer vehicles can make them effectively useless.

-Combat Engineers. Come with Shotguns stock. Can Bolster Defenses. Can take new special weapon Spigot Launchers(still working on rules. Mortar style explosion that reduces terrain cover saves by one). Can take Demo-Charges, melta-bombs, and specialized grenades.

Or they come with Lasguns stock, this isn't DKoK. The reason their Combat Engineers came with Shotguns is because they're intended to accompany their little mining device.

Bolster Defenses is "eh". I would rather see them have the ability to deploy a Tarantula Sentry Battery and/or the ability to boobytrap fortifications. Maybe give them the Ground Scanners that FW put out as well.

-Snipers, in either squad or character form or both. Character would be like Enginseers or Preists. Both should have Infiltrate, Move Through Cover and Camo-Cloaks default. Squad should have BS 4, character BS 5.

Said it before, saying it again.

Dedicated sniper teams with what effectively is a stripped down lascannon. Spotter allows for rerolls on either hits, wounds, or armor pen.
Additionally allow for Spotters to reduce the scatter for Ordnance or Barrage weapons being fired indirectly.

-Medics. Either have attachable elites section or allow all squads to grab a medkit.

Why Elites? That's just kinda silly given how already crowded that section is.
A Platoon or Company option for a Medicae Detachment ala Regimental Advisors, divided up into CCS->PCS->MTCS->MTS->HVS->IS would be far better especially giving the likelihood of a sliding scale for the detachment.

-Trenches, around 20 pts each, only 5+ cover.
These are just rough ideas, I'll add more as I finish designs them.

They're not bad ideas--so please don't think I'm ripping on you just for fun or anything. I think some of the ideas could use finessing but at the same time some of it just circles around the whole issue of "Let's add X instead of fixing Y".

The trenches are a good idea but I like the Medium Tank and Sniper ones the best.

A Medium Tank should be something like the Panzer IV to the Leman Russ's Tiger. The armour should be week and they should not be fast. Currently a LR moves 6" so a regular tank with an AV of 12-13/11/10 and a move of 12" should be good enough. Its weapons should be similar to the Leman Russ for the most part, a lighter version of the Battlecannon and Vanquisher cannon for the basic variants, a Lascannon, an Autocannon with 4 shots and a longer range, a lighter version of the Punisher with less shots, etc. Hull mounted Heavy Stubbers are a must.

The Snipers are a great idea, maybe allow 1-4 to be purchased as a single Elites slot.

 master of ordinance wrote:

A Medium Tank should be something like the Panzer IV to the Leman Russ's Tiger. The armour should be week and they should not be fast. Currently a LR moves 6" so a regular tank with an AV of 12-13/11/10 and a move of 12" should be good enough. Its weapons should be similar to the Leman Russ for the most part, a lighter version of the Battlecannon and Vanquisher cannon for the basic variants, a Lascannon, an Autocannon with 4 shots and a longer range, a lighter version of the Punisher with less shots, etc. Hull mounted Heavy Stubbers are a must.

Again, this isn't fixing any of the actual issues with the Leman Russ. It needs to be a Tiger before we start throwing in a Panzer IV.

Before we start adding more vehicles that are very likely to be woefully underpar, let's get the Leman Russ up to a reasonable place.

I would rather have 13+ av12 65pts medium tanks armed with auto cannons, then 140 ore more pts heavy lemman russes that do nothing because they are blast.

Leman russes are actually pretty good they just need two rules changes. Lumbering behemoth back so ordinance doesn't make everything snap fire and better priced sponsons.

Give them a few decent formations and give the army access to more interceptor based weapons and the Russ becomes a scary tank again.

But mostly the guard just lack decorian style list building and a ton of formation bonuses. There are also units I'd like to personally adjust and many ideas here are good but the main problem is guards are still a 6th edition codex where 7th edition codexs are the most powerful because of all the formation bonuses.

gungo wrote:
Leman russes are actually pretty good they just need two rules changes. Lumbering behemoth back so ordinance doesn't make everything snap fire and better priced sponsons.

Give them a few decent formations and give the army access to more interceptor based weapons and the Russ becomes a scary tank again.

But mostly the guard just lack decorian style list building and a ton of formation bonuses. There are also units I'd like to personally adjust and many ideas here are good but the main problem is guards are still a 6th edition codex where 7th edition codexs are the most powerful because of all the formation bonuses.

That's not remotely true as to why Guard struggle. Tau aren't a 7th edition book and they're still plenty powerful. Eldar were powerful even before their recent upgrade despite not being a 7th edition book.

It's not the lack of a unique FOC and formations, it's just a bad book with shoddy internal/external balance. It holds up just fine against, say, CSM or Orks but against anything else it struggles beyond any rational metric.

Kanluwen wrote:

gungo wrote:
Leman russes are actually pretty good they just need two rules changes. Lumbering behemoth back so ordinance doesn't make everything snap fire and better priced sponsons.

Give them a few decent formations and give the army access to more interceptor based weapons and the Russ becomes a scary tank again.

But mostly the guard just lack decorian style list building and a ton of formation bonuses. There are also units I'd like to personally adjust and many ideas here are good but the main problem is guards are still a 6th edition codex where 7th edition codexs are the most powerful because of all the formation bonuses.

That's not remotely true as to why Guard struggle. Tau aren't a 7th edition book and they're still plenty powerful. Eldar were powerful even before their recent upgrade despite not being a 7th edition book.

It's not the lack of a unique FOC and formations, it's just a bad book with shoddy internal/external balance. It holds up just fine against, say, CSM or Orks but against anything else it struggles beyond any rational metric.

Ugh, this time one hundred. Especially when you consider the limited (5 to 6) number of actually valid choices we have (and even some of these are debatable).

Makumba wrote:I would rather have 13+ av12 65pts medium tanks armed with auto cannons, then 140 ore more pts heavy lemman russes that do nothing because they are blast.

Aye, the problem is that the Leman Russ is just too expensive to be a desirable choice if faced with other options.

Kanluwen wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

A Medium Tank should be something like the Panzer IV to the Leman Russ's Tiger. The armour should be week and they should not be fast. Currently a LR moves 6" so a regular tank with an AV of 12-13/11/10 and a move of 12" should be good enough. Its weapons should be similar to the Leman Russ for the most part, a lighter version of the Battlecannon and Vanquisher cannon for the basic variants, a Lascannon, an Autocannon with 4 shots and a longer range, a lighter version of the Punisher with less shots, etc. Hull mounted Heavy Stubbers are a must.

Again, this isn't fixing any of the actual issues with the Leman Russ. It needs to be a Tiger before we start throwing in a Panzer IV.

Before we start adding more vehicles that are very likely to be woefully underpar, let's get the Leman Russ up to a reasonable place.

Yep, the Leman Russ needs a major buff. Being cheaper, another HP and some buffs and extra weapons, especially free coaxial Heavy Stubbers, are in dire need.

 Kanluwen wrote:

gungo wrote:
Leman russes are actually pretty good they just need two rules changes. Lumbering behemoth back so ordinance doesn't make everything snap fire and better priced sponsons.

Give them a few decent formations and give the army access to more interceptor based weapons and the Russ becomes a scary tank again.

But mostly the guard just lack decorian style list building and a ton of formation bonuses. There are also units I'd like to personally adjust and many ideas here are good but the main problem is guards are still a 6th edition codex where 7th edition codexs are the most powerful because of all the formation bonuses.

That's not remotely true as to why Guard struggle. Tau aren't a 7th edition book and they're still plenty powerful. Eldar were powerful even before their recent upgrade despite not being a 7th edition book.

It's not the lack of a unique FOC and formations, it's just a bad book with shoddy internal/external balance. It holds up just fine against, say, CSM or Orks but against anything else it struggles beyond any rational metric.

I agree. Some older codexes were working fine with all the new stuff around. Including my own the Tau. The AM need a drastic overhaul. Perhaps there will be an in lore "Marian" reforms to the regiments to make them more effective fighting force. Combined with some new gear/tech from an STC would be a good lore reason to reform what the AM is and have it make sense.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yep, the Leman Russ needs a major buff.

Agreed. I think the problem is that a lot of people (mainly those who don't play IG) *think* LR tanks are good. I'm not sure why - maybe because they're the cheapest AV14 vehicles, or perhaps because they remember that LRs used to be strong, and think they still are.

Trouble is, whilst LR tanks might have been strong in the past, the game has moved on since then. Unfortunately, the LRs haven't.

In fact, the ordnance varieties got significantly worse. But, even aside from that, most of their weapons just aren't good. It seems that they're either under-specialised (autocannons, the punisher without Pask, the heavy bolters they all come with etc.) or over-specialised... and still rubbish (is any tank really afraid of the vanquisher?). Then there's issues like plasma cannons having a fatal design flaw. AV14 means jack when you can die simply from firing your own weapons (made even more tragic because plasma cannons are about the only LR weapon that's even vaguely competent). We don't even have the advantage of squadrons anymore, because a) FoCs are a joke (so it's not like it's a useful bonus), and b) several elite races have been handed vehicle squadrons anyway.

About the only advantage LRs have over the tanks of other armies is AV14... in an edition where races can have D-weapons in standard games, multiple-shot haywire guns on basic troops etc.

Alcibiades wrote:
BS 4 (or any 4 stat) in 40K is generally reserved for the extremely well trained or experienced.

Because the system does not have enough granularity.

All I want to see is the return of Vox Network in some form.

Currently Vox Casters work merely as megaphones...

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ew, no. The Guard doesn't need speed. We don't need a medium tank--we need our heavy tanks to actually be worth taking. Adding a new vehicle to the mix doesn't fix that issue, it just adds something to distract from the issue.

We already have Hellhounds, and in an objective based game slow moving isn't going to help us out as much.

 Kanluwen wrote:

AT mines not affecting skimmer vehicles can make them effectively useless.

Yeah, I realized this after posting, they can affect Vehicles as well. Thinking S8 AP2, hits rear armor, if it pens on a 4+ is immobilized

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or they come with Lasguns stock, this isn't DKoK. The reason their Combat Engineers came with Shotguns is because they're intended to accompany their little mining device.

Bolster Defenses is "eh". I would rather see them have the ability to deploy a Tarantula Sentry Battery and/or the ability to boobytrap fortifications. Maybe give them the Ground Scanners that FW put out as well.

I'll work on that. I was actually going for a more demo/chemical weapons close quarters group with specialized grenades, Spigot Launchers, and other specialized gear.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Said it before, saying it again.

Dedicated sniper teams with what effectively is a stripped down lascannon. Spotter allows for rerolls on either hits, wounds, or armor pen.
Additionally allow for Spotters to reduce the scatter for Ordnance or Barrage weapons being fired indirectly.

Combine the two into one. The debate is squad vs. character, as a sniper is more of a character role, but it probably will jsut come off as a worse, cheap Vindicare. Recon Squads for spottign, have already started cracking

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why Elites? That's just kinda silly given how already crowded that section is.
A Platoon or Company option for a Medicae Detachment ala Regimental Advisors, divided up into CCS->PCS->MTCS->MTS->HVS->IS would be far better especially giving the likelihood of a sliding scale for the detachment.

I also said upgrade for squad, which I think is the better option. The reason I mentioned elites is because he Millitia 30k list was on my mind

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're not bad ideas--so please don't think I'm ripping on you just for fun or anything. I think some of the ideas could use finessing but at the same time some of it just circles around the whole issue of "Let's add X instead of fixing Y".

I want to fix Y as well, and actually made my own suggestions in earlier posts, but it's been discussed so much I wanted to offer some posts considering other ideas. New units are rare for guard, with us losing several in return for only two (Wyvern and Bullgryn) so new units would be welcome. Also I'm looing for cheap feedback on my homebrew Steel Legion Codex

 Kanluwen wrote:

Again, this isn't fixing any of the actual issues with the Leman Russ. It needs to be a Tiger before we start throwing in a Panzer IV.

Before we start adding more vehicles that are very likely to be woefully underpar, let's get the Leman Russ up to a reasonable place.

I was just throwing in some new possible units. People have already thrown in tons of suggestions for how to improve the ruses, so I decided to try another route for improving the codex. Those are just gneneral ideas, I have more specific ideas coming.

 master of ordinance wrote:
A Medium Tank should be something like the Panzer IV to the Leman Russ's Tiger. The armour should be week and they should not be fast. Currently a LR moves 6" so a regular tank with an AV of 12-13/11/10 and a move of 12" should be good enough. Its weapons should be similar to the Leman Russ for the most part, a lighter version of the Battlecannon and Vanquisher cannon for the basic variants, a Lascannon, an Autocannon with 4 shots and a longer range, a lighter version of the Punisher with less shots, etc. Hull mounted Heavy Stubbers are a must.

Problem is thats a lighter version of the Leman Russ just makes them a cheaper Russ, which is what people want the current russ to be. I'm working on possible weapon systems that could be used. Also, it should be able to carry Assualt Cannons, TL or single. I never got why those are only in the realm of the SM.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
All I want to see is the return of Vox Network in some form.

Currently Vox Casters work merely as megaphones...

Agreed, it's stupid, it's not how radios work at all. Infinite ranged orders would be better between vox units. Allow Voxes for tanks so that Tanks can get orders from CCS as well.

Better Range of Orders.

FRFSRF working on all weapons shot instead of just lasguns would be cool though possible a little OP

Also would rather see orders and senior orders combine together and get a general points increase/balance if that was the case so that orders are slightly more accessible.

 Desubot wrote:
Better Range of Orders.

FRFSRF working on all weapons shot instead of just lasguns would be cool though possible a little OP

I immediately thought of command squads with quad meltas using this, thinking "man, 8 BS4 melta shots would be really ridiculous".

Then I remembered Skitarii can double-tap BS5/6/7 Haywire guns without having to worry about getting off an Ld test to do so..

I think when the game has gotten to the point where one has to actually pause to think if being able to double melta shots like that would be overpowered, something has gone terribly wrong with the rest of the game...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Better Range of Orders.

FRFSRF working on all weapons shot instead of just lasguns would be cool though possible a little OP

I immediately thought of command squads with quad meltas using this, thinking "man, 8 BS4 melta shots would be really ridiculous".

Then I remembered Skitarii can double-tap BS5/6/7 Haywire guns without having to worry about getting off an Ld test to do so..

I think when the game has gotten to the point where one has to actually pause to think if being able to double melta shots like that would be overpowered, something has gone terribly wrong with the rest of the game...

Isn't that what happens every time GW releases a new edition?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Better Range of Orders.

FRFSRF working on all weapons shot instead of just lasguns would be cool though possible a little OP

I immediately thought of command squads with quad meltas using this, thinking "man, 8 BS4 melta shots would be really ridiculous".

Then I remembered Skitarii can double-tap BS5/6/7 Haywire guns without having to worry about getting off an Ld test to do so..

I think when the game has gotten to the point where one has to actually pause to think if being able to double melta shots like that would be overpowered, something has gone terribly wrong with the rest of the game...

The power creep certainly has gotten insane.

 vipoid wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yep, the Leman Russ needs a major buff.

Agreed. I think the problem is that a lot of people (mainly those who don't play IG) *think* LR tanks are good. I'm not sure why - maybe because they're the cheapest AV14 vehicles, or perhaps because they remember that LRs used to be strong, and think they still are.

Trouble is, whilst LR tanks might have been strong in the past, the game has moved on since then. Unfortunately, the LRs haven't.

In fact, the ordnance varieties got significantly worse. But, even aside from that, most of their weapons just aren't good. It seems that they're either under-specialised (autocannons, the punisher without Pask, the heavy bolters they all come with etc.) or over-specialised... and still rubbish (is any tank really afraid of the vanquisher?). Then there's issues like plasma cannons having a fatal design flaw. AV14 means jack when you can die simply from firing your own weapons (made even more tragic because plasma cannons are about the only LR weapon that's even vaguely competent). We don't even have the advantage of squadrons anymore, because a) FoCs are a joke (so it's not like it's a useful bonus), and b) several elite races have been handed vehicle squadrons anyway.

About the only advantage LRs have over the tanks of other armies is AV14... in an edition where races can have D-weapons in standard games, multiple-shot haywire guns on basic troops etc.

Leman Russes need some sort of jink equivelent and a hull point upgrade. These are supposed to be massive, slow, frontline war machines, the idea that they can be wiped out as easipy as they are is absurd. BS4 should come standard as it should be easier for a tank gunner to aim than a footsoldier. Hull points should increase to 4 or 5 as well.

If not, a massive points drop is needed for it to be somewhat competitive in its current state.

 triplegrim wrote:


9. Baneblades will probably be in the main codex. Would at least give us a more standard LoW.

Looking at how other codexes have been doing LoW options, Creed will be our LoW next.
I hope for a Beihnblehd, but I get the feeling that would be expecting too much of GW. Their reasoning will be that the SH LoW options are all tidily available in the Escalation book. For the low, low price of all your cash.

I would like to see better tank formation choices that the Steel Host. SH is nice, but it's a little restrictive, and it forces you to take a Hydra.
A Baneblade escort formation would be nice.

Example:

1x Baneblade Variant
1x Tank Commander Squadrons
2-6 Leman Russ Squadrons
0-3 Sentinel Squadrons

Formation Rule: While the Baneblade is alive, all units from this formation within 18" of the Baneblade gain Pinning, Fleshbane and Armourbane on each of their attacks. [Possibly also Fear.]

 Blacksails wrote:
There's more to a unit than its gun.

A 33% price increase is ridiculous.

A mere 10 points is even more ridiculous. That is so cheap as to be automatic, which defeats the point of IG being a basic human force.

Guard should be the WORST basic troopers in the galaxy. Period. They are mere humans against everything else. The reason Guard exist is to make everyone else look good. BS4 should be EXTREMELY RARE, and expensive. A human shooting as well as a augmented super soldier Space Marine or hypertwich Eldar is ridiculous. Offensive, really.

40-50 points is a good number, because it keeps BS4 very rare, truly exceptional.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
We already have the chassis in the form of the Hellhound variants. 12/12/10 Fast is a perfect medium tank.

Agree. The Hellhound chassis is a Cruiser Tank, faster but lighter than the Leman Russ heavy tank chassis.


Quite frankly, all this talk of buffing things for the sake of buffing is annoying. The Imperial Guard have great tools, and just need some price fixes. Not power upgrades.

Save the bumps for the IG Formation, not for the units.

I already have a massive Eldar army for BS4 S3 T3. Also Sisters. And Stormtroopers. The last thing I want is Guard "improved" to be like Eldar / Sisters / Stormtroopers.

With any luck GW will standardize down to BS3 WS2 S3 T3 (BS2 Conscripts, BS4 Ratlings, BS2 WS4 Ogyns) just like how Necrons got RPs and Sv dropped to be different from Space Marines.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Guard should be the WORST basic troopers in the galaxy. Period. They are mere humans against everything else. The reason Guard exist is to make everyone else look good. BS4 should be EXTREMELY RARE, and expensive. A human shooting as well as a augmented super soldier Space Marine or hypertwich Eldar is ridiculous. Offensive, really.

40-50 points is a good number, because it keeps BS4 very rare, truly exceptional.

Why should guard be the worst basic troopers?

They're your average humans, but they're (fairly) well trained and equipped in very much the same vein as today's soldiers - as good as you can get without spending too much. The fact that there are things like Conscripts, Grotz, Cultists, and Renegades and Heretics (forgeworld) goes to show you that your average guardsmen isn't actually poorly trained or shittily equipped, he'd just not elite.

And BS4 is not "rare" or "truly exceptional". FFS Orks can get to BS3 if they have a have a glorified red-dot sight and take the time to look through it rather just shooting from the hip in the enemies general direction. BS4 isn't much better than that - it's basically just well trained and having a firm grasp of how your weapon will react to distance and the environment (wind).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
There's more to a unit than its gun.

A 33% price increase is ridiculous.

A mere 10 points is even more ridiculous. That is so cheap as to be automatic, which defeats the point of IG being a basic human force.

Guard should be the WORST basic troopers in the galaxy. Period.

Huh? Worse than Grots?

They're not supposed to be ultra elite, but there are very definitely things that a guardsmen should be both better equipped and stat'd than. We're talking generally well trained human troops (not poorly trained conscripts, who have their own unit entry), some of whom have been exposed to military training their entire lives. There also have always been IG units that have been portrayed as very well trained and lavishly equipped, and, depending on the reigning GW design paradigm of the time, has sometimes been portrayed in the rules (e.g. all Cadians in 3E/4E were effectively BS "3.5").

. A human shooting as well as a augmented super soldier Space Marine or hypertwich Eldar is ridiculous. Offensive, really.

If you're offended over that, I don't know what to say. However, there have been BS4 guardsmen in every single edition of 40k ever.


Also remember basic Eldar, aside from Aspect Warriors & characters, were all WS3/BS3 for more than 90% of 40k's existence until they decided to change that very recently and to some degree of controversy. Humans weren't *that* far down the totem pole.

40-50 points is a good number, because it keeps BS4 very rare, truly exceptional.

Points costs are there to reflect the tabletop value of a unit, not to reflect background rarity. Otherwise a Tactical Marine would be 800,000,000 points next to a basic Guardsmen, and is why pricing things that way is terrible game design. 10pts would be an entirely appropriate points cost in terms of reflective tabletop value on many units, particularly those that rely single shot weapons and don't properly function within the current ruleset (e.g. Vanquishers).

EDIT: as a further point, I think it's time to start looking beyond stats as simple faction defining features. Even 70 year old tanks with crews that only had a few weeks training could hit targets hundreds of meters away with great accuracy, modern tanks moving at highway speeds can hit another moving target at a couple thousand meters away with 90%+ success rates.

Other games don't typically treat to-hit ability as a faction specific trait. Flames of War deals with to-hit rates depending on the opposing army's veterancy. Any conscript can be taught how to shoot modern weapons with some competency fairly quickly, it's up to the foe to make themselves hard to hit, and thus a Veteran enemy is very difficult to hit (knowing how to move from cover to cover, when to make their move, how to cover each other, etc) and sometimes even impossible to hit, while conscripts bumbling around in the open running human wave attacks are hit on 2's even by other conscripts.

Or one can look at something like Dropzone Commander, where to-hit rolls are generally weapon specific, with the "IG" style faction having just as many "hit on 2+" weapons as even the advanced cyborg humans and hyper-capable aliens, with similar power weapons, but don't necessarily have the same specialized support abilities or things like energy forcefields or blistering speed or raw resiliency.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
There's more to a unit than its gun.

A 33% price increase is ridiculous.

A mere 10 points is even more ridiculous. That is so cheap as to be automatic, which defeats the point of IG being a basic human force.

Guard should be the WORST basic troopers in the galaxy. Period. They are mere humans against everything else. The reason Guard exist is to make everyone else look good. BS4 should be EXTREMELY RARE, and expensive. A human shooting as well as a augmented super soldier Space Marine or hypertwich Eldar is ridiculous. Offensive, really.

40-50 points is a good number, because it keeps BS4 very rare, truly exceptional.

A BS4 upgrade at that cost is NEVER worth it in the IG. I agree that it should be rare, but not that it should cost waaay more than it's worth.
Keep the BS4 handouts as they are - Veteran squads and HQ choices.