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It's very simple: in any system, somebody has to be the worst. In 40k, that is the IG. Making Guardsmen heroic diminishes the scale of the rest of the game.

The d6 scale, in particular, is made even narrower by not using BS2 in a significant way. If everybody is BS4, why even bother having a BS stat?

What IG always has is volume and mass. That is how they compensate for individually being crap. FRFSRF, for example, mitigates BS3 to making it better than BS4.

The idea that individual Guardsmen or units thereof should be "good" misses the entire point of the IG.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's very simple: in any system, somebody has to be the worst. In 40k, that is the IG. Making Guardsmen heroic diminishes the scale of the rest of the game.

Since when did there have to be a uniform "worst", and how does an increased capability at using ranged weaponry suddenly make them "heroic" where they weren't before?

The d6 scale, in particular, is made even narrower by not using BS2 in a significant way. If everybody is BS4, why even bother having a BS stat?

A very good question given with the state of the game at this point, particularly in light of the change with Eldar.

What IG always has is volume and mass. That is how they compensate for individually being crap. FRFSRF, for example, mitigates BS3 to making it better than BS4.

The problem is there's a huge number of weapons that don't benefit from anything like FRFSRF, and that need a higher hit rate in order to really function properly. Stuff like a Leman Russ Vanquisher for example, where, at BS3, a dedicated tank hunter that is terrible at hunting tanks, because it lacks the ability to put enough hits on target to matter most of the time.

The idea that individual Guardsmen or units thereof should be "good" misses the entire point of the IG.

And yet there's been the history of the Cadians (where at one point they had BS 3.5 because they got to reroll 1's to hit), the well trained and lavishly equipped Vostroyans, Stormtroopers & Kasrkin, Krieg Guardsmen with WS4, etc.

The IG encompasses probably the most diverse and varied fighting force in the galaxy, where there are Chenkov-style conscript hordes, there are elite Kasrkin, where there are luckless namless regiments that die without any significant accomplishment, there are renowned ultra-experienced regiments like the Tanith 1st that can seemingly take on anything. There's a very good basis for stat variation with the IG.


Ultimately, enhanced BS IG units currently already, and always have, existed. We're not introducing anything new that the faction hasn't had access to before.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's very simple: in any system, somebody has to be the worst. In 40k, that is the IG. Making Guardsmen heroic diminishes the scale of the rest of the game.

The d6 scale, in particular, is made even narrower by not using BS2 in a significant way. If everybody is BS4, why even bother having a BS stat?

What IG always has is volume and mass. That is how they compensate for individually being crap. FRFSRF, for example, mitigates BS3 to making it better than BS4.

The idea that individual Guardsmen or units thereof should be "good" misses the entire point of the IG.

John, are you an Eldar/Necron/Marine player?
It is, sadly, a general given these days that most basic units are BS4 and those of which are not have some way to compensate for this, such as Tau having a 30" range and strength 5 AP4 weapons. What has the Guard got? A gakky glorified flashlight which in all honesty is crap. Oh sure we have FRFSRF but even with that we are only putting an average of two casualties on to a target a turn. That is 50 shots to kill two average MEQ (which most things are these days) opponents. Just stop and think on that for a while.
That is why we have Veterans and the are really fun buuuuuutttttt
what about our tanks? The fluff is full of veteran tank crews and it makes sense that a crew protected by thick steel would last longer than your average squishy man but for some reason we dont have them. But some of our vehicles need to be BS4, Take the Vanquisher, it is in all honesty crap with its one shot that only hits 50% of the time. Or the Punisher, that really would benefit. The Exterminator loves BS4. Hell, even our blast vehicles can benefit from it, that 1" can make all the difference.
10 points is not too little to ask. It makes sense. It feels right.

I have play tested this. I run a Homebrewed tank commander (costing 265 points) whom allows me to upgrade my tanks to BS4 for 10 points. It works. On the one hand the tanks individual performance is improved but on the other it quickly racks up. 7 tanks? Thats 70 points right there. Thats a Veteran Squad with a Heavy Bolter or Forward Sentries. Or 7 BS4 tanks.
So far all my opponents have agreed that it is a balanced upgrade.

Bs4 vanquishers would be an Emperor send. Sometimes my vanq will only take out one vehicle the entire game, from a combo of missing half the time and no real bonus to actually destroying enemy armour. All I can do is hull point strip with it because it's not ap 1. He hits half the time, and then only has a 1 in 6 chance to actually detonate most vehicles on a pen. And the only good thing about it is it averages 15 for its armour pen rolls.

Also make the deathstrike strength D.

Bs3 guardsmen with autogun or stubber instead of lasguns as standard issue? Would this assist? I cant remember off top of ma head

 sumi808 wrote:
Bs3 guardsmen with autogun or stubber instead of lasguns as standard issue? Would this assist? I cant remember off top of ma head

Lasguns, Autoguns and Stubbers all use the same profile now I believe.

I expect this has been brought up at some point, but why does a Deathstrike Missile need to be on the board to fire?

The thing has an unlimited range - surely we should be firing it from a base somewhere?

You don't see modern day military forces wheeling nuke-launchers to the edge of the place they're planning to nuke. What would be the point? You're basically sacrificing one of the greatest advantages of your weapon (the ability to hit a target at massive ranges), for no gain whatsoever.

But apparently in the 41st millennium, this is the standard strategy.

Incidentally, when people order missile strikes, they're usually pretty precise about when they want them. I don't recall any general responding to the question of when he wants the missile to fire with "Surprise me."

You could say the same thing of all the artillery really. A basilisk or manticore has no purpose being within small arms fire of the enemy.

 vipoid wrote:

Incidentally, when people order missile strikes, they're usually pretty precise about when they want them. I don't recall any general responding to the question of when he wants the missile to fire with "Surprise me."

Love the idea of phoning up the missile site and it being like a cable company.

"We're being overrun down here, need missile strike asap"

"We can fire it anytime between 11am and 5pm, will you be in then?"

"Depends how long it takes for this carnifex to eat our platoon really."

"We can reschedule for another day if these times are inconvenient for you. And that attitude is not helping get this done any quicker."

 Blacksails wrote:
You could say the same thing of all the artillery really. A basilisk or manticore has no purpose being within small arms fire of the enemy.

Very true, but artillery at least needs to be somewhere vaguely near the battlefield. Missiles can be fired from hundreds of miles away.

 HANZERtank wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Incidentally, when people order missile strikes, they're usually pretty precise about when they want them. I don't recall any general responding to the question of when he wants the missile to fire with "Surprise me."

Love the idea of phoning up the missile site and it being like a cable company.

"We're being overrun down here, need missile strike asap"

"We can fire it anytime between 11am and 5pm, will you be in then?"

"Depends how long it takes for this carnifex to eat our platoon really."

"We can reschedule for another day if these times are inconvenient for you. And that attitude is not helping get this done any quicker."

 HANZERtank wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Incidentally, when people order missile strikes, they're usually pretty precise about when they want them. I don't recall any general responding to the question of when he wants the missile to fire with "Surprise me."

Love the idea of phoning up the missile site and it being like a cable company.

"We're being overrun down here, need missile strike asap"

"We can fire it anytime between 11am and 5pm, will you be in then?"

"Depends how long it takes for this carnifex to eat our platoon really."

"We can reschedule for another day if these times are inconvenient for you. And that attitude is not helping get this done any quicker."

Have an exalt for that

The AM codex provides a rationale for the missile launcher being so close. Read the fluff text.

Alcibiades wrote:
The AM codex provides a rationale for the missile launcher being so close. Read the fluff text.

*Snorts* yes, and I read that too. It still makes no sense whatsoever.

Alcibiades wrote:
The AM codex provides a rationale for the missile launcher being so close. Read the fluff text.

I just read it and can see nothing of the sort.

All I'm seeing is reasons why deploying the damn thing so close is a really, really stupid idea. To name a few:

- "The Deathstrike exhibits huge range..." So why does it need to be positioned about a hundred yards from the front-line?

- "Able to visit the wrath of the Emperor upon targets half a world away." So, this thing can be fired on a target that's literally on the other side of the world... and they still feel the need to wheel it about 10ft from its target.

- "...the Deathstrike often requires its own escort and presents the foe with a valuable and relatively soft target." So why move the bloody thing to the edge of a battlefield?

- "Held behind imperial lines, Deathstrikes lurk out of site." So, wait, we're hiding these things behind our lines... by placing them in the open, maybe 10 yards behind the front line.

- "Fed short range combat-launch coordinates..." Is this what you're referring to? Because the text says that this is only for very desperate scenarios. And, if it isn't, how the hell do the IG coordinate anything when they are apparently incapable of providing long range coordinates. And, for that matter, what the hell are "short range coordinates"? I thought the entire point of geographic coordinates was that they provide a global positioning system. Or did everyone just forget to put batteries in their radios, so that "short range coordinates" consist of a commander shouting "fire it over there!" as loud as he can?

Conclusion:
The artillery is for Apoc games, where you strategically take one end of the board (which at this point should be large enough to call a "map"), point it at an enemy some extreme distance away, and then pound with impunity

While it does say that it is "for very desperate scenarios", it also says that the Deathstrike is experiencing something of a renaissance because of how bad things are becoming. It ends that blurb with:

Such measures are as inhumane as they are desperate, yet in these times no sacrifice is too great to ensure the survival of Mankind.

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The AM codex provides a rationale for the missile launcher being so close. Read the fluff text.

I just read it and can see nothing of the sort.

All I'm seeing is reasons why deploying the damn thing so close is a really, really stupid idea. To name a few:

- "The Deathstrike exhibits huge range..." So why does it need to be positioned about a hundred yards from the front-line?

- "Able to visit the wrath of the Emperor upon targets half a world away." So, this thing can be fired on a target that's literally on the other side of the world... and they still feel the need to wheel it about 10ft from its target.

- "...the Deathstrike often requires its own escort and presents the foe with a valuable and relatively soft target." So why move the bloody thing to the edge of a battlefield?

- "Held behind imperial lines, Deathstrikes lurk out of site." So, wait, we're hiding these things behind our lines... by placing them in the open, maybe 10 yards behind the front line.

- "Fed short range combat-launch coordinates..." Is this what you're referring to? Because the text says that this is only for very desperate scenarios. And, if it isn't, how the hell do the IG coordinate anything when they are apparently incapable of providing long range coordinates. And, for that matter, what the hell are "short range coordinates"? I thought the entire point of geographic coordinates was that they provide a global positioning system. Or did everyone just forget to put batteries in their radios, so that "short range coordinates" consist of a commander shouting "fire it over there!" as loud as he can?

You're confusing two different issues... whether there is a rationale given and whether the rationale makes sense. A rationale is given -- you just quoted it in your last paragraph. That it doesn't make sense is another matter.

I always had the idea that Deathstrikes could fire any time, but the more time you let it "ready" the more powerful it is. So first turn if it fired, it's a Strength 10 7" Blast. Next turn, it's Apocalyptic with Ignores Cover. Third turn and on, it's Strength D

An apocalyptic ignores cover would be better than D.

I think id rather have a D weapon with a bonus to roll.

3+ to the D roll so epic destruction on a 4+

 Quintinus wrote:
I always had the idea that Deathstrikes could fire any time, but the more time you let it "ready" the more powerful it is. So first turn if it fired, it's a Strength 10 7" Blast. Next turn, it's Apocalyptic with Ignores Cover. Third turn and on, it's Strength D

It's not a laser. It doesn't need to charge up.

If anything, it should be something like it normally rolls an absurd 3-4D6 for Scatter, subtracting 1D6 for every full turn that the Deathstrike has not moved or suffered a Weapon Destroyed result.

 Desubot wrote:
I think id rather have a D weapon with a bonus to roll.

3+ to the D roll so epic destruction on a 4+

Use the rules for the vortex warhead. Anything under the 10" blast is gone. No saves, no special rules just gone. GC take D6 wounds and super heavys lose d3 structure points(which is 3,6 or 9 hull points).

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think id rather have a D weapon with a bonus to roll.

3+ to the D roll so epic destruction on a 4+

Use the rules for the vortex warhead. Anything under the 10" blast is gone. No saves, no special rules just gone. GC take D6 wounds and super heavys lose d3 structure points(which is 3,6 or 9 hull points).

Add a rule that removes all terrain under the blast, and replaces it with a 10" crater.

Alcibiades wrote:

You're confusing two different issues... whether there is a rationale given and whether the rationale makes sense. A rationale is given -- you just quoted it in your last paragraph. That it doesn't make sense is another matter.

Actually, rationales are supposed to be logical reasons.

Otherwise you might as well say "we're doing this stupid thing because it's what we're doing."

Currently, we appear to have an irrationale.

 Selym wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think id rather have a D weapon with a bonus to roll.

3+ to the D roll so epic destruction on a 4+

Use the rules for the vortex warhead. Anything under the 10" blast is gone. No saves, no special rules just gone. GC take D6 wounds and super heavys lose d3 structure points(which is 3,6 or 9 hull points).

Add a rule that removes all terrain under the blast, and replaces it with a 10" crater.

We do need a good lasgun replacement. Any thoughts? I was thinking 30k Solar Auxilla Lasrifles with attachments

Bring back Doctrines, allowing you to customise your army, or have certain rules (like chapter tactics) I.e. Cadians BS4 or something... Would make it fluffy and help your play style

 saithor wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think id rather have a D weapon with a bonus to roll.

3+ to the D roll so epic destruction on a 4+

Use the rules for the vortex warhead. Anything under the 10" blast is gone. No saves, no special rules just gone. GC take D6 wounds and super heavys lose d3 structure points(which is 3,6 or 9 hull points).

Add a rule that removes all terrain under the blast, and replaces it with a 10" crater.

We do need a good lasgun replacement. Any thoughts? I was thinking 30k Solar Auxilla Lasrifles with attachments

How about multilasers, the greatest weapon mankind can bring to bear on it's foes.

P.S. anybody know when the next C.S.Goto book comes out?

But in seriousness, they could do with a buff. Even just a range increase would do. Being very fragile, guard need to lay on hurt before other things get in range. A 6" boost fluffed as a tighter focused beam STC being discovered would allow a turn of fire before most other mainstay guns get in range.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quintinus wrote:
I always had the idea that Deathstrikes could fire any time, but the more time you let it "ready" the more powerful it is. So first turn if it fired, it's a Strength 10 7" Blast. Next turn, it's Apocalyptic with Ignores Cover. Third turn and on, it's Strength D

It's not a laser. It doesn't need to charge up.

If anything, it should be something like it normally rolls an absurd 3-4D6 for Scatter, subtracting 1D6 for every full turn that the Deathstrike has not moved or suffered a Weapon Destroyed result.

Not saying it's charging, just "readying" the weapon for maximal damage. Regardless, I like the idea of 3D6 of Scatter.

At this point, is there really a good balance argument for the Deathstrike needing such random factors?

It's got a scary weapon, but it only fires once. With the state of the current game, you can bring other units that can fire similar or even more powerful weapons every single turn. While it may cost you 3x as much to bring such a superheavy, you'll get 6x the number of shots and probably 6x the survivability between AV14 and 9HP.

 Vaktathi wrote:
At this point, is there really a good balance argument for the Deathstrike needing such random factors?

It's got a scary weapon, but it only fires once. With the state of the current game, you can bring other units that can fire similar or even more powerful weapons every single turn. While it may cost you 3x as much to bring such a superheavy, you'll get 6x the number of shots and probably 6x the survivability between AV14 and 9HP.

These are alternatives to the current nonsense of being unable to fire the damn thing turn one.