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How about a special rule whereby commissars can order guardsmen to climb into enemy gun barrels, clogging them with their corpses?

That'd be their melee attack - when in base to base with the enemy, kill as many guardsmen as the guns of the opposing tank you wish to prevent from firing for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
IG Panzer Battalion Formation:

1 Tank Commander Sqn (may be Pask)
1-2 Battle Tank Squadrons (Each must be 3 tanks)
1-2 Siege Tank Squadrons (Each must be 3 tanks)
1-3 Armoured Fist Squads (Vets Squad in Chimera)
0-1 Techpriest

Formation Bonus:
-Veteran Tank Crews (Each tank in each squadron may select a different target to the other in its squadron)

--------------------------
Pros of Formation: Spammable Russes, and conservation of firepower in Sqn's

Cons of Formation: Maneuvering could be tricky, clocks in at a minimum of over 1000 points, no ObSec, no counter-assault, easy for enemies to multi-assault.
--------------------------

Should be combined with these Russ buffs:
-LRBT is 140 ppm
-LR Demo is 150 ppm
-Tank Commander may take "Ablative Armour" for +20 pts, granting +1 HP.
-All Russes gain Lumbering Behemoth, ignoring the effects of Ordnance, and granting a 5+ save to glancing hits.
-All Russes may take Lascannon sponsons for +40 pts
-Vanquisher Cannon is now:
Range 72" // Str 8 // Ap 1 // Armourbane, Vanquisher Rounds (On a penetrating hit, the Vanq deals D2 HP damage, rather than 1 HP)

Imperial Guard Orders

[I like a light touch when changing weapons, but I did like the old 5th Edition Order System so this is my take on it. Each Order gives you something, but some also give some sort of Restriction.]

Issuing an Order:
To issue an order, during the Movement Phase declare the order your officer starting with the Highest Rank is attempting to issue and select a single friendly (Only Tank Commanders can Issue Orders to Tanks) unit from Codex: Astra Militarum that is within 12" of the officer, this can be the officer’s own unit if you wish. Then move to the next Highest Rank Officer, then the next and so on.
We call this unit the ‘Ordered Unit’. The ordered unit must then take a Leadership test to see if the order has been understood and acted upon. If the test is passed, the order takes effect as specified in its description.
If the test is failed, the order does not take effect.
The 'Ordered Unit' does not prevent the ordered unit from acting later in that phase, whether the order was successful or not.
Orders cannot be issued to embarked Units or Units that previously received an order that phase (whether or not that order was successful). Unless otherwise stated, orders cannot be issued to units that are locked in combat, are falling back, or have gone to ground.
Lesser Commanders can not give orders to Higher Officers.
A Command Giving to a Platoon Command Squad may affect the Whole Platoon.

Chain of Command, Number of Orders and Command Radius:
Warlord: Gains +1 Order
1st] Company Commander: May Issue any 2 Orders within 18”.
>Lord Castellan Creed: May Issue any 3 Orders (Yes if he is your Warlord this gives him 4 Orders) withing 24”
>Color Sergeant Kell: I Creed is no longer on the table may Issue any 1 Order within 12”.
>Colonel ‘Iron Hand’ Straken: May Issue 2 Orders within 18”
2nd] Commissar Yarrick: May Issue any 2 Commands within 12”
3rd] Tank Commander: May Issue any 2 Commands within 12”, but one must be a 'Tank Order'
4th] Lord Commissar: May Issue any 1 Command within 12”
5th] Platoon Commander: May Issue any 1 Command within 12”
6th] Veteran Sargent: May issue any 1 Command to his unit only.

Orders:
Take Aim!: The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot special rule. The Infantry Units may not Move.
Smite at Will!: The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, the ordered unit has the Split Fire special rule.
First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!: The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models firing with Las-Guns or Hot-Shot Las-Guns treat their Weapons as Heavy-3.
Forwards, for the Emperor!: The ordered unit must make a Move then Shoot or Shoot and Move. They may still Run during the Shooting Phase.
Move! Move! Move!: The ordered unit must Move and then in the Shooting Phase Run. When determining how far the unit Runs, roll three dice and use the highest result. They May Charge during the Assault Phase.
Suppressive Fire!: The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all weapons in the ordered unit have the Pinning special rule. Las-Guns and Hot-Shot Las-Guns become Salvo-3/2.
Fix Bayonets: The Unit can Move and fire Las-Guns and Hot-Shot Las-Guns as if they are Assault-2 at Half Range and Gain Furious Charge, but Must make an Assault attempt. Rough Riders and Ogryns/Bullgryns gain Rending. Can be used on Units that have entered out of Reserves.
Fall Back to the Next Position!: The Units Shoots and then must move (and run if needed) to the nearest cover. They Ignore Difficultly Terrain, but still must make Dangerous Terrain Checks. Any Cover they start in does not count as Cover for this Order. Once in the new Cover the Unit may go to Ground.
Bring it Down!: ‘Bring it Down!’ can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models in the ordered unit have the Tank Hunters and Monster Hunter special rules. All Las-Guns and Hot-Shot Las-Guns gain S+1, AP-1 and become Heavy 2, but gain Gets Hot. (Las Guns become 24”, S4, AP6, Heavy-2, Gets Hot and Hot-Shot Las-Guns become 18” S4, AP2, Heavy 2, Gets Hot)
Fire on my Target!: ‘Fire on my Target!’ can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all weapons in the ordered unit have the Ignores Cover special rule.
Get Back in the Fight!: ‘Get Back in the Fight!’ can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. Unlike other orders, ‘Get Back in the Fight!’ can only be issued to a unit that is falling back or that has gone to ground. The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back, but it does not make a 3" move. If the unit has gone to ground, the effects of going to ground are immediately canceled instead. In either case, the ordered unit can act (shoot, run, charge etc.) normally for the remainder of the turn.
Where Are the Reinforcements!: 'Where Are the Reinforcements!’ can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. This is the only Order that may be given to Units not already on the Table. If Successful one Unit in Reserve Immediately comes out of Reserves. This order may be Giving on Turn-1. Units coming out of Reserve may not take any other Actions.

Tank Orders: A Tank Commander can roll 2D6 at the beginning of the Shooting phase. If the total result is 9 or less (10 or Less for Tank Commander Pask), choose one of the following Tank Orders to immediately take effect.
Full Throttle!: The Tank Commander’s unit immediately moves Flat Out, moving up to 6+D6", even though they are Heavy. The Unit may not fire, but can use Smoke. No more Orders can be Issued if used on own unit.
Gunners, Kill on Sight!’: The Tank Commander’s unit immediately makes a shooting attack. The Tank Commander must shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. The Tank Commander must resolve his shooting attack first. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit. These must be at a different target, which cannot be a unit forced to disembark as a result of the Tank Commander’s initial shooting attack. No more Orders can be Issued if used on own unit.
Strike and Shroud!: The Tank Commander’s unit must make a shooting attack. After this shooting attack has been resolved, all vehicles in the unit that have not already done so must use their smoke launchers. No more Orders can be Issued if used on own unit.
Aim at the Weak Spot!: The Main Weapon gains S+1 and reduces it AP by one (The Vanquisher's S9, AP1). May only use Main weapon.
Fire At Will!: All Weapons my Fire Twice, but the Unit Can Not Move.
Into the Breach!: The Unit makes a Tank Shock Attack and can fire all Hull Weapons.

Wargear:
>Regimental Standard: A regimental standard follows the same rules as a platoon standard. In addition, any friendly units from Codex: Astra Militarum within 12" of a model with a regimental standard re-roll failed Morale, Fear, Pinning and Orders tests.
>Vox Caster: Orders between Units with Vox Casters become Unlimited. If the Two Vox Casters are within the Command Radius all Orders can Be Re-Rolled.

I think the only way to keep guard on a level playing field without power creeping their stats up would be a drastic reduction in points across the codex. Even with a FRFSRF of 80+ shots on average maybe 10 of them end up wounding. Regular guardsmen should drop down to conscript points, and conscripts should be about 1-2 pts each. Leman Russ' should take point reductions across all variants and possibly even be given an extra HP. Hell, even the baneblade varients should cost less. Make ogryns and scions useful, I like the idea of tank veterans. Why should infantry have all the vet fun?

The vanquisher cannon should be boosted to st 9 ap 2, lasguns should be rapid fire assault weapons if we are going to keep them at st 3, a bayonet charge should grant guardsmen an extra strength and possibly even initiative point on the initial charge.

The guard are meant to be the most expendable force in the game, the points should reflect that.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I think the only way to keep guard on a level playing field without power creeping their stats up would be a drastic reduction in points across the codex.

Egads, please no.

It's expensive as hell to make an army already. Just make it so that units actually have uses, while keeping the same (or slightly) higher average model/unit count per army.

Yeah that would be the downside to it however, being as you already have to buy tons of models to field guard.

True but a lot of us already have plenty of models.

I could see guardsman at 4 points, and conscripts at 3.

Or add Chenkov back in, and have him respawn any IG squad once. Or make it a formation thingy.

Give buffs to cannon fodder uses - increased cover saves, guaranteed LoS to Warlord etc

What about the rapid fire assault lasgun idea? Too much or just right?

I like the idea of endless waves of guardsmen as well, regular squads can come back and have to footslog, vets cannot.

Erghh no. The goal is to make the army more fun to play. To me that means rolling less but more effective dice.

lasgun. s4 assault 1. The mathhammer for this is kinda nice. a 10 man squad has the exact same expected wound count vs tactical marines if they are both given frfsrf. you roll 10 less dice do way less measuring.

Thng is, Str 4 is for .50 cal HE rounds from a boltgun. The problem is the scale of a D6 does not allow for good differentiation. Keep Str 3, but allow more shots. Or add the Blind rule if the IG accomplish a certain number of hits in one shooting phase.

 Selym wrote:
Thng is, Str 4 is for .75 cal HE rounds from a boltgun.

Fixed that for you, fluff says .75cal, which is only a bit larger than the bore of the average shotgun.. It only better serves to emphasize your point.

Ta

What about some sort of "Massed Fire" rule.



Massed Fire (option 1):
For every 10 attacks made with either lasguns or laspistols by the same unit, an additional attack is also made. This attack automatically hits and uses the following information:
Strength 8, AP 2

or

Massed Fire (option 2):
For every 10 attacks made with either lasguns or laspistols by the same unit, an additional attack is also made. This attack automatically hits and uses the following information:
Strength 6, AP 5, Blast, Blind

 Selym wrote:
Or add Chenkov back in, and have him respawn any IG squad once. Or make it a formation thingy.

Give buffs to cannon fodder uses - increased cover saves, guaranteed LoS to Warlord etc

Vraks Renegades can take a warlord who respawns every destroyed infantry unit (greater than 15 man) on a 2+. These guys then arrive via outflank, can run 2d6, and get a 3+ cover save from intervening models rather than a 5+. It's quite strong, and I think the entire thing could be ported over. Or instead of outflank, make each side open up on a turn by turn basis. On turn 2, destroyed units can only come in on your deployment zone, on turn 3, from either flank sides, and on turn 4, you can pick the side. To represent the waves of guard overwhelming the battle line.

I think vets should mostly stay the same but have stealth as a native special rule, as well as shooting snapshots at BS3. They aren't necessarily all snipers, but they are veterans because of their quick draw accuracy and reflexes, for the most part. Let them take hot-shots, but differentiate hot-shots from hellguns, and give scions hellguns. Hot shots can get hot and keep the 18 Rapid fire profile, Hellguns are 24" Assault 2, and each Scion sergeant can give Tempestus orders. I think that differentiates them well.

Everybody gets frag and krak grenades. Guard gets 3 fortification slots instead of 1, and any infantry platoon of more than 20 men can reinforce a terrain piece. Add Imperial Navy flyers as fast attack.

Massed Fire 1, but at Str 7 Ap 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Silverthorne: I like it

If we're adding Hellguns back in, I don't want them as "just" a Scions/Stormtroopers thing.

Because they aren't. They are used by Grenadier units as well as Scions/Stormtroopers.
Making two different "loadouts" that you can choose from on Veteran Squads--such as a "Linebreaker" loadout with Hotshot Lasguns(which shouldn't have "Gets Hot" but should instead be a point of Strength lower and a point of AP higher compared to the Hellgun) and standard Flak Armor and an "Anchor" loadout with Hellguns and Carapace Armor.

In any regards, Sergeants need to be able to issue Orders. It just needs to happen. Or the entire Orders system needs to be reworked from the ground up.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I think the only way to keep guard on a level playing field without power creeping their stats up would be a drastic reduction in points across the codex.

The guard are meant to be the most expendable force in the game, the points should reflect that.

If my current 7k of Guard returns to being the 5.5k that I previously thought I had, it means I get to put 20% more of my toys on the table. I'm good with that.

Sentinels, Chimeras, Hellhounds, Russes and Baneblades are all overcosted - and these are the signature items of the Guard. RRs, Ogryns and Storms are grossly overcosted, while Ratlings are hugely underpowered.

About the only thing that's fairly costed is the basic Guardsman, but his upgrades cost too much. Where is the "lowest cost bidder" mass-producing stuff for the IG? Where the SM's pay 15 pts for an item, it's because it's handmade and gold-plated like a Rolls Royce. But the IG get a plastic and stamped steel version like a Hyundai. Carries the same people and their luggage but at 1/10 the cost. Roll the Flamer and HB into the cost, and only charge for upgrades, and they're probably OK.

Or, give us "free" stuff in a formation, like buy a CCS and 2 Platoons, and all weapon upgrades are free... That would be outstanding.

Infantry Platoon

0-1 Command Squad
2-5 Infantry Squads
0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads
0-3 Special Weapons Squads
0-2 Conscript Squads

Platoon Rules:
Officer's Armoury Access - If this Platoon consists of a Command Squad, 2 or more Infantry Squads and at least one other squad, all weapon upgrades become 5 points cheaper

Eh, just give them the guns for free. Recall that SMs are getting FREE Razorbacks in their formation.

I want this added to formations and IG buffs.
Formations are for extra points cheating.

Yes, I called formations cheating.

Infantry Platoon Formation

1-1 Command Squad
2-5 Infantry Squads
0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads
0-3 Special Weapons Squads
0-2 Conscript Squads

Platoon Rules:
1 free Leman Russ Battle Tank (standard variant) may be taken for each Infantry Squad in the formation. They may be combined in a single vehicle squadron, or operate as individual units.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Eh, just give them the guns for free. Recall that SMs are getting FREE Razorbacks in their formation.

And they still pay for any/all upgrades to the Razorbacks.

So yes, they get a FREE 55 point transport which comes standard with twin-linked Heavy Bolters or can replace those for twin-linked Heavy Flamer at no points cost.

Anything beyond that upgrade costs points.

Additionally, that needs three criteria to be met:
A) You have taken a Gladius Strike Force detachment.
B) You have two Battle Demi-Companies, one led by a Chaplain and one led by a Captain.
C) The units in question be able to take a Rhino, Razorback, or Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport.

So yeah, they get FREE Razorbacks or Drop Pods or Rhinos---but those must be Dedicated Transports, meaning they cannot be Fast Attack choices meaning they cannot be used by any unit except the one they were purchased for.

The Infantry Platoon that was listed isn't anywhere near the same thing as a Battle Demi-Company in any regards, so in my opinion it would still be silly to allow for that to happen.

Chimeras are pretty insanely priced at 65 pts for doing feth all except driving squads across the field a bit faster, they should be at half of what they cost currently.

unghh... Don't get me wrong I want the army to play uniquely and I like the guard fluff too. That said I don't want to put any more models on the table. I don't want to do more dice accounting. I want faster funner games with more strategic decisions. fluff should steer design but fun should trump everything. More fun means making the units more effective not giving us more ineffective crap. Fluff be damned.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
Chimeras are pretty insanely priced at 65 pts for doing feth all except driving squads across the field a bit faster, they should be at half of what they cost currently.

Or they should be made to fit their points cost...

I'd love for autocannons on the Chimera at 65pts, but then I feel that the Taurox doesn't have much of a defined role.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd love for autocannons on the Chimera at 65pts, but then I feel that the Taurox doesn't have much of a defined role.

It never did anyway.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd love for autocannons on the Chimera at 65pts, but then I feel that the Taurox doesn't have much of a defined role.

The Taurox doesn't have a defined role to begin with.
It's a lazy Cruddace styled convention--an attempt at a "Razorback" for an army that has no need for one.
Axe the stupid thing or make it strictly Tempestus then refocus the Chimera.


"Command Vehicle" can be made so that it not only affects Orders being given but also Orders being received, as an example.
Multilasers could be made a bit better without being broken--S6 AP5 or AP4 alone would be a huge boost to that Chimera's effectiveness for that 65 points.

I like the idea of some kind of 'massed fire' rule that swaps out the high number of weak shots for something stronger. Of course on a troop unit it couldn't be too OP. So a heavy 1 AP3 strength 7 shot seems reasonable to me.

Wider availability of senior officer orders would be pretty cool too. I agree that we should be looking at buffing grunts rather than making them cheaper.

Or, bring back doctrines!