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GCox wrote:
unghh... Don't get me wrong I want the army to play uniquely and I like the guard fluff too. That said I don't want to put any more models on the table.

Maybe you should play smaller games, then.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Taurox doesn't have a defined role to begin with.
It's a lazy Cruddace styled convention--an attempt at a "Razorback" for an army that has no need for one.
Axe the stupid thing or make it strictly Tempestus then refocus the Chimera.


"Command Vehicle" can be made so that it not only affects Orders being given but also Orders being received, as an example.
Multilasers could be made a bit better without being broken--S6 AP5 or AP4 alone would be a huge boost to that Chimera's effectiveness for that 65 points.

Oh, I agree, I'd ditch the Taurox in a heartbeat if I could.

What if Multilasers were heavy 4? Didn't the scatter laser get a boost from 3 to 4 some editions ago? Would seem reasonable and generally in keeping with some of the recent power creep, for better or for worse.

I'd be fine with Heavy 4 Multi-LAZORZ, not that it would make that much difference, nor "fix" the Chimera.

The chimera just feels a bit... outdated. Having just 2 firepoints makes it a really bad transport. I mean, considering veterans can take 3 specials and CCSs/PCSs can take 4, it's a pretty pitiful number. But don't worry - we get to fire 3 BS3 lasguns on each side. Woot. Just add 100 more to either side and they might actually accomplish something.

Also, it seems like it's trying to be all razorback-y, being a transport that doubles as a fire platform. The problem is that its weapons are beyond outdated. Anyone care about a BS3 heavy bolter and multilaser in this edition? Especially ones mounted on a non-fast transport.

Yeah the Chimera just doesn't have enough killing power. In my last game my 6 Chimeras killed 3 Rhinos and damaged a fourth.

Amazing firepower for 390 pts

 vipoid wrote:


Also, it seems like it's trying to be all razorback-y, being a transport that doubles as a fire platform. The problem is that its weapons are beyond outdated. Anyone care about a BS3 heavy bolter and multilaser in this edition? Especially ones mounted on a non-fast transport.

I think I would like some better Chimera weapon options and maybe some non weapon options, how about:
1. Raier Lazer destroyer uprage to heavy bolter halves transport capacity 30pts
2. Twin Linked Auto Cannon
3. Twin linked multi lazer 5pts upgrade to multi lazer
4. Radar Package- grants skyfire and interceptor to one unit within 12" during the enemy movement phase- loss of transport capacity 60pts
5. Tactical Data Package- orders checks within 6" including MoF orders use embarked CO Commander's Leadership, Halves Transport capacity 30pts

Also on a separate note; has anyone wishlisted alternate rounds for Mortars? Smoke rounds, Illumination Rounds, Marking Rounds?

Interesting ideas.

The Radar package at a 60pts upgrade (I'm assuming) and losing transport is a non-starter. Paying 125pts for an AV12 vehicle with mediocre weapons and the ability to grant a situational USR to a single unit is...very underwhelming.

If it was a 10pts upgrade and halved capacity so command squads could take them, you'd be on to something.

 Redleg wrote:
Also on a separate note; has anyone wishlisted alternate rounds for Mortars? Smoke rounds, Illumination Rounds, Marking Rounds?

Nope.

But if we're going that route, I want the full range of 2E missile + grenade options restored:

Hallucinogen.

Anti-Plant.

Virus.

Vortex...

 Blacksails wrote:
Interesting ideas.

The Radar package at a 60pts upgrade (I'm assuming) and losing transport is a non-starter. Paying 125pts for an AV12 vehicle with mediocre weapons and the ability to grant a situational USR to a single unit is...very underwhelming.

If it was a 10pts upgrade and halved capacity so command squads could take them, you'd be on to something.

Radar Package for 60 points, removes the turret mounted weapon and leaves transport capacity untouched.

If granted to a squad as part of a platoon, the whole platoon gains the ability.

/bam


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redleg wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


Also, it seems like it's trying to be all razorback-y, being a transport that doubles as a fire platform. The problem is that its weapons are beyond outdated. Anyone care about a BS3 heavy bolter and multilaser in this edition? Especially ones mounted on a non-fast transport.

I think I would like some better Chimera weapon options and maybe some non weapon options, how about:
1. Raier Lazer destroyer uprage to heavy bolter halves transport capacity 30pts

Nope, nope, nope.
The Laser Destroyer array is a HUGE thing. It's not like sticking Lascannons all over a Valkyrie and then making extra space for batteries(which is still dumb). It was a Leman Russ hulled weapon as it took a significant amount of space, and even then firing the dang thing would immobilize the vehicle--hence why it was an ambush vehicle.

2. Twin Linked Auto Cannon
3. Twin linked multi lazer 5pts upgrade to multi lazer

So basically we're just taking the cheapest route of "if we twin-linked it, it might not suck as bad!"?

It will still be bad. Twin-linking these two options isn't the answer.

4. Radar Package- grants skyfire and interceptor to one unit within 12" during the enemy movement phase- loss of transport capacity 60pts
5. Tactical Data Package- orders checks within 6" including MoF orders use embarked CO Commander's Leadership, Halves Transport capacity 30pts

These two should be rolled together--except for the silliness of "6 inches".

Orders are too short-ranged to begin with and anything that boosts up their usage should be encouraged. Playing into the whole "We can really only work at shouting distance" nonsense should be discouraged.
1) Orders should apply to an entire Platoon and its supporting elements.
2) Orders shouldn't have a range limitation as long as the officer and units have vox-casters.

Anyways--remove Skyfire and Interceptor to one unit, change it to "Skyfire, Interceptor, Tank Hunters, Monster Hunters, Split-Fire or Stealth during your movement phase--lasting until your next movement phase to all units within 12 inches"

Require the upgrade to be on a Company Command Squad Chimera and cost more than 60 points.

Also on a separate note; has anyone wishlisted alternate rounds for Mortars? Smoke rounds, Illumination Rounds, Marking Rounds?

A long time ago, yes.

Realistically they become more of a hassle than anything else, necessitating lots of markers or custom built stuff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Radar Package for 60 points, removes the turret mounted weapon and leaves transport capacity untouched.

If granted to a squad as part of a platoon, the whole platoon gains the ability.

works for me.

How about a Communications package that makes the range of all orders to and from vox relays infinite range, also available by sacrificing the turret but for much cheaper.
I like the idea of orders without range, and especially the whole orders affect the entirety of a platoon (mostly because it gives a platoon CMD sqd with a commissar great), but it seems very powerful in comparison to what other armies can do. It should come with some downside. In this case the ability is mounted on a 12AV vic.

Just make vox-casters allow infinite range on orders. Fluffwise, they're a Vietnam-style PRC-25. Maybe then they'd be worth 5 points on basic infantry squads.

The Guard warlord trait that gives extra range to orders would have to be changed, though.

I'd like to see the Executioner's Gets Hot roll changed to a single roll for all three shots, or just a 15-20 point cost boost and change it back to no Gets Hot.

I really, really like the idea of "ordering a platoon command squad automatically gives the order to all squads in the platoon." Very fluffy, and generally how it should work.

While I could see some points cost for an unlimited-range Vox Caster, if they're walkie-talkies, shouldn't the limited range ones be FREE?

 Redleg wrote:
Also on a separate note; has anyone wishlisted alternate rounds for Mortars? Smoke rounds, Illumination Rounds, Marking Rounds?

The only way I see Mortars being remotely useful is if their points are dropped down dramatically, say 20 pts for 3 of them in a squad and maybe make them 2 shots each.

I like the idea of Illumination rounds, maybe a unit hit by them loses Shrouded or even make them an IG version of marker lights?

A Mortar should be the free basic weapon, that the squad can upgrade to HF / HB for +5 pts, ML for +10 pts, etc. It's just a metal tube with a couple of legs, for pity's sake. It takes almost no tech to make one. Even the base plate can be scrap.

Making them Heavy 2? That's not a terrible idea, but you might have to charge a few points vs free.

For Infantry Squads I think 5 pts is sufficient.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Radar Package for 60 points, removes the turret mounted weapon and leaves transport capacity untouched.

If granted to a squad as part of a platoon, the whole platoon gains the ability.

/bam

I still find it very underwhelming for 60pts. Skyfire/Interceptor are certainly good USR, especially to turn them on or off as desired, but for 60pts? I'd pass. Plus, I'd much rather have it with halved capacity and retain the extra weapon just so that PCSs and the like can ride in them and act as support to either a mechanized platoon or foot platoon. Chimeras and platoons in general would need firepower buffs in some way to make it worth 60pts in addition to the Chimera itself. Unless of course you mean its 60pts for the Chimera with the Radar Package...which I'd be totally okay with. Or half transport but retain the turret.

I guess its because I feel platoons as a whole need some love. The other squad options (heavy and specials) need transport options, voxes, and all the other upgrades basic infantry squads get, or at least let them be blobbed with the rest of the platoon..or something.

I'm also a fan of the idea of putting scout sentinels in as platoon support options, tangentially related.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
A Mortar should be the free basic weapon, that the squad can upgrade to HF / HB for +5 pts, ML for +10 pts, etc. It's just a metal tube with a couple of legs, for pity's sake. It takes almost no tech to make one. Even the base plate can be scrap.

As for mortars, I think the main failure of the weapons system in the game is that it represents only the squad attached version with highly limited munition. What would most likely be a 60mm mortar (maybe upgrade-able to 81mm). That is probably fine for a line infantry upgrade, but heavy weapon teams should be armed with 81mm mortars, possibly upgrade-able to 120mm mortars. Each should have multiple munition types.
I would like to see something like this

|Weapon|Range|Type|
|60mm Mortar| 36"| small Blast Barrage|
|81mm Mortar| 12-48"| Small Blast, Barrage, Pinning|
|120mm Mortar| 18-72"| Large Blast Barrage, Pinning, Strike-down|

Munitions Available on all Mortar Systems:
Frag- S 4 Ap 5
Illum- Targets hit by blast marker lose loose any benefit from stealth (including that granted by night fighting)-units with nightvision must take a blind test.
Chem- S 1 AP-, Poison 2+ Imperial Sanction Required

Munitions available to 81mm and 120mm:
ICM-S 3 Ap 4 Ignores Cover
Willy Pete S 3 Ap 5 soul blaze
AT- S 4 Ap - Armourbane
IR illum- A target hit by IR illum, grants ignores cover to any further shooting attacks upon them from a source with nightvision (this one should be Elysium or scions only)
Orange- Forest and similar terrain hit by these munitions grant -1 cover save for the remainder of the game.

Imperial Sanction Required- Chem rounds can only be used by a force that includes an Inquisitor


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Munitions available only to 120mm Mortar:
Thermite, S 8 AP 3, Reduced Blast, Thermal

Reduced Blast- these munitions are resolved with a small blast marker

Thermal- if the center hole of the marker is over a vehichle that hit is resolved at AP 1 with the Armourbane USR.

At the granularity available for 40k, I'm not sure one can distinguish the man-portable mortars at 3 levels in addition to the Artillery and vehicle-based mortars (e.g. Griffon).

Yeah, absolutely.

The most you could do with mortars is have two fire modes, and even that would be too much for the common, man portable version that could be found in a dozen or two squads.

Probably gonna be repeating a lot of what's already been said but really liking some of the ideas people have posted about orders and feel that they could potentially improve if not solve some of the issues that imperial guard have, with out the issue of destroying the feel of being the underdog that a stats boost would cause or the damage to the wallet that a points decrease would cause. As an added bonus I think they could even out new play styles whilst keeping to the theme of the army.

The order relay idea of having PCS pass on the orders to all squads in their platoon would hugely increase the fire power of a guard force and also allow units to be deployed as MSU instead of as blobs with out losing efficiency. It would allow for a command unit to be used in that role instead of as a suicide flamer squad or cheap sniper objective holder, at the same time I don't think it would be too over powering as they are very fragile so enemy should be able to take them out and break down the chain of command; maybe taking them out could also cause a negative effect such as units being unable to receive orders from the CCS next turn due to confusion to even things out further.

One of the guards biggest issues is lack of mobility and the price hike to chimeras did nothing to improve this, having vox's increase order range would allow units to be mobile while remaining effective. On top of that having units able to receive orders while mounted in transports makes a lot of sense considering all the comms gear likely to be on board. Rather than just allowing infantry order to me issues to squads in transports I think Having a set of mechanised orders would be advantageous my suggestions would be as follows, though I would like to here feed back on this especially from those who don't play guard as it's easy to go over board and make things unbalanced the other way:

1) Going in Hot: Makes a transport open topped till the owning players next turn.
The doors are opened/ramps lowered with guns blazing to allow quick disembarkation in a hot LZ/drop off point.
This is the once I'm most worried about being over powered, as once again people could just park up and blast with everything they've got, I'm hoping that the durability lost would preventing it being an auto use every round. It would also have the advantage of giving ogryn of both types a way to get in combat (though I'd bring back the rule for a commissar being needed to persuade them aboard), also would assist with mobility and objective taking by allowing flamer and shotgun bearing vet's make a death or glory charge to capture that objective

2) Gun it! Adds 3" to normal and flat out movement
Driver opens up the throttle, to get to the ojective never mind whats between them.
Again helps with mobility, bit bland but the best I could come up with, maybe there could be a penalty to terrain tests for flavour and to make people weigh up whether its worth it.

Unsure of a third one
3) Hold ground: Transport and disembarked units can add to each others over watch if they are with in 3" of each other, and gain +1 to cover saves, but can't move next turn, flyers must go into hover mode.
Unit digs in and secures a perimeter around transport/LZ
Flavoursome but maybe a little too much, struggling to think of a suitable negative to prevent it being an auto use that makes sense other than flyers being forced into hove mode. Maybe a movement penalty of some sort next turn

The down side to separate mechanised orders, that it's yet more stuff to remember, but maybe the infantry orders could be trimmed back a little as there's a lot of dross there, and complexity can reduced by having just one level of orders by having PCS just passing on the CCS rather than having their own restricted pool.

Finally for the remaining to command squads have the scion command squad pass on orders through out their platoon (hence the changes to vox) would make scions that little more dangerous to armour when they get tank hunters, and FrFSrF and ignores cover along with being able to recover from going to ground would make them better at stealing objectives and more tempting to take in squads larger than 5.
Tank commanders should be able to give orders to other squadrons (never understood why that was the case, defeats the point of a command unit) I can't see any glaring reasons why the present orders wouldn't be fit for that, on top of that give them the abilty to issue two orders to match CCS and able to issue mechanised orders for their armoured fist escorts

Sorry for length been a few of these threads recently, found them really inspiring. Got few a ideas on unit/weapon tweaks to improve internal balance, but outside of dealing with MC's and flyers I think that the order tweaks could do a lot for making guard a bit more competitive.

I think some adjustments for the Leman Russ tanks will likely come from buffs for taking full vehicle squadrons.

ragnorack1 wrote:

One of the guards biggest issues is lack of mobility and the price hike to chimeras did nothing to improve this.

Agreed of course, but your mechanized orders and some codex rearrangement with gladius style detachments could fix this

ragnorack1 wrote:

The down side to separate mechanised orders, that it's yet more stuff to remember, but maybe the infantry orders could be trimmed back a little as there's a lot of dross there, and complexity can reduced by having just one level of orders by having PCS just passing on the CCS rather than having their own restricted pool.

This is where I start thinking that the whole chain of command and available orders should be based upon the type of HQ formation and/or type of core formation chosen. I think that three available HQ formations make sense, and those would be first a Large Infantry HQ selection that may include sentinels and other battalion asset like units (hardened vets, commissars, priests and maybe psykers). This formation would get the best infantry orders such as ignores cover and tank hunters and Forward for the emperor. This formation might include an optional fortification that automatically receives the 'Command Building' upgrade, allowing a bunker to be used like well a bunker gets used.

Secondly an Armor HQ section which probably needn't change much could include orders the mobility elements could easily apply to armored fist squads, possibly they could also have 'Get back in the fight' to apply to infantry squads.

Lastly an armored fist squad HQ, which hopefully would have a special character option equal to Creed or Pask (not that they are equal as of now), would be a small chimera mounted HQ with orders that improve the vehicle shooting and mobility, and possibly assault capability of armored fist squads. They may also have access to a few infantry orders or tank orders.

ragnorack1 wrote:


Finally for the remaining to command squads have the scion command squad pass on orders through out their platoon (hence the changes to vox) would make scions that little more dangerous to armour when they get tank hunters, and FrFSrF and ignores cover along with being able to recover from going to ground would make them better at stealing objectives and more tempting to take in squads larger than 5.

I think you would make scions in my example an auxiliary detachment, granting the orders relayed, and making drop commissars available

Over all I like your thoughts, and it has made me consider unit battlefield role rearrangements and a gladius style formation force org. That is something I think that AM would benefit from greatly, and could allow for cheaper cad or allied detachments for those that just want to add in some ObSec guard to a SM list, or get a few tanks or other fun stuff without having to take large numbers of comparatively worthless troops.

Oh, a very minor point, but I'd like to see the Chain of Command rule sod off and die.

As it stands, if I have a CCS then my Lord Commissar can't be my warlord.

Conversely, a random platoon sergeant can be my warlord and apparently has no issues ordering the Company Commander around.

All those rules are fine and improve stuff. But how dot hey help us spam objectives like other armies do? Improved orders would be awesome, but my problems with orders is that the order givers die super fast with the number of impossible to counter alfa strike units. Better and cheaper russ would again be awesome, but to counter all the grav, haywire and drop pods, they would have to cost less then 100pts to realy work.

Makumba wrote:
All those rules are fine and improve stuff. But how dot hey help us spam objectives like other armies do? Improved orders would be awesome, but my problems with orders is that the order givers die super fast with the number of impossible to counter alfa strike units. Better and cheaper russ would again be awesome, but to counter all the grav, haywire and drop pods, they would have to cost less then 100pts to realy work.

At this point in the game's life, it wouldn't surprise me if Leman Russes were free with certain other units taken.

Power curve is curvy.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh, a very minor point, but I'd like to see the Chain of Command rule sod off and die.

As it stands, if I have a CCS then my Lord Commissar can't be my warlord.

Conversely, a random platoon sergeant can be my warlord and apparently has no issues ordering the Company Commander around.

Yeah. Wtf.

-Yarrick leads an army
-Junior officer comes up
-Yarrick bows down to his 6 months combat prep and 2 weeks leadership course.

Hey man, those leadership power point slides are pretty good.

I agree about the chain of command rule though. Rather poorly implemented.

To be fair, it's long established that Commissars are outside of the chain of command.

It's why Gaunt was such a rarity in that he was a Commissar and an Officer.

 Kanluwen wrote:
To be fair, it's long established that Commissars are outside of the chain of command.

It's why Gaunt was such a rarity in that he was a Commissar and an Officer.

And yet a platoon sergeant can outrank a Company Commander.

 Selym wrote:

Yeah. Wtf.

-Yarrick leads an army
-Junior officer comes up
-Yarrick bows down to his 6 months combat prep and 2 weeks leadership course.

Oh, if we're bringing Yarrick into this then things get even worse.

You don't even need a company commander - Yarrick can't lead an army because he outranks himself.

 vipoid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
To be fair, it's long established that Commissars are outside of the chain of command.

It's why Gaunt was such a rarity in that he was a Commissar and an Officer.

And yet a platoon sergeant can outrank a Company Commander.

Warlord traits are a different beast entirely. The Warlord rules are written so that armies which don't have HQs or so that models in Formations can have Warlords.

You pick your Warlord. It's not randomly generated or any such nonsense. You want your Company Commander to be the Warlord? Then pick him.