Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Cheap Rough Riders would not make someone want to take them. They don't really have much of a use. Buff their melee power by a bit, and I'd consider using them as counter assault.

 Selym wrote:
Cheap Rough Riders would not make someone want to take them. They don't really have much of a use. Buff their melee power by a bit, and I'd consider using them as counter assault.

Speak for yourself. I still field one Squad of them and am looking into getting at least one more.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Cheap Rough Riders would not make someone want to take them. They don't really have much of a use. Buff their melee power by a bit, and I'd consider using them as counter assault.

Speak for yourself. I still field one Squad of them and am looking into getting at least one more.

How do you find them?

 Selym wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Cheap Rough Riders would not make someone want to take them. They don't really have much of a use. Buff their melee power by a bit, and I'd consider using them as counter assault.

Speak for yourself. I still field one Squad of them and am looking into getting at least one more.

How do you find them?

They are not GW models

I meant on the TT, but that'll do too

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a whole lot wrong with a grip of units beyond just Ratlings and RR's. Ogryns, Scions, Vanquishers, Demolishers, LRBT's, Basilisks, etc all have major functionality issues and the internal balance of the book is absolutely horrific. That's not even getting into the giant pile of gak that is heavy & special weapons teams.

The book is only "ok" in the sense that, against pre-2015 armies, you could use like 40% of the book to make "OK' armies, which was enough to at least play for most players. Aside from that, it's got a lot of issues, and GW's design philosophy trend doesn't seem to be going out of its way to address the 2015 books power level issues any time soon

Ogryns are entirely fine, there's just too much things that delete them too easily. As said, tone down what's broken, don't buff what's alright.

Ogryns will make a good melee bully unit once Wraithknight and that whole category is fixed - it's basically a unit of Warbosses, after all. I am not sure of their pts cost in the latest codex, maybe it needs a tweak, but I doubt it. The unit is absolutely brutal against most infantry in melee, even other melee specialists.

I hadn't thought of Scions as they are their own codex now, but they need another job. Mediocre anti-MEQ is not enough. Give them high RoF S3 Ap4 at good range or something, and perhaps a pts drop.

Vanquishers get a co-axial heavy stubber. Done. Negligible firepower increase, main gun accuracy boosted to 75% from 50%, making it more reliable.

Demolishers are 100% fine. They are Vindicators +1 with more weapons and better AV. They do a 24" 'zone of death' job well.

Basilisks suffer from tables that are too small. The unit is best suited for Apocalypse, for shooting those fethers over on the other side of the hall. I have no idea of why it is in small 40k games to begin with, long-range artillery deployed in 'knife fight' range.

Heavy & special weapons teams need more cheap meatshields. Let them take conscripts as in-squad escorts to absorb weapons fire. Done. Makes perfect sense that the Guard would protect valuable heavy weapons with cheap bodies.

 Selym wrote:
I meant on the TT, but that'll do too

I have them with a pair of Flamers and I give the Sarge a Power Lance. I usually use them to finish off units that the 'Big Guns' have beat up or Transports. The flamers do...ok.
I was playing them with Grenade Launchers as an Outrider Force, but the Las-Pistols did not Synergies well with Grenade Launchers or with the Plasma Guns {And I love Plasma}.
Melta worked...ok, but after the initial Charge I now had a bunch of guy supporting 2 Melta-Guns with a giant Bull-Eye on them.
With the Flamers I need to get close, but I want to do that with the Las-Pistols anyways and they make a "Serviceable" Assault unit, IF I can ever make a Moral Check!
My big problem has been aster the Initial Assault, can't seem to make Moral Checks and that is even with someone like Creed in Command Range. I can not count the time this has happened.
Turn One: I go Running across the table along a FLank and using cover.
Turn Two: I get my Assault of killing all, but the Sargent of the Devastator Squad, but leave only the Sargent Alive. The following Assault Phase the Sargent kills one Model, I fail my Moral Check and Run Away, but are not caught in a Sweeping Advance.
Turn Three: Continued to run away as I roll an 11 on my "Get Back Into The Fight" Order to my Unit of 8 Rough Riders.
Turn Four: I Roll all 6s on there Run-Away Move as they finish running off the board.

Scions are not anti-MEQ, the Volleygun is anti-MEQ. If SM Tacs want to take on equal points of a Volleygun squad at 24", they are going to lose even if they fire first.

What I'd like to see is simply more enablers to shore up their weak points.

- LD8 across the board. This would also mean 12pts for the Sgt rather than 22pts. Scions are not overcosted but the Sarge tax is painful; you're paying 10pts to remove a rifle from the squad.
- Optional Vet Sgt for 10pts who confers passive bonuses, replacing doctrines.
- Clarion Vox - Same rule, 24" range and acts as a free Vox.
- Monoscopes - Acts as an Auspex for the Squad only (-1 to enemy cover instead of shooting) and once per game, reroll all misses during overwatch.
- HS Lasgun, HS Laspistol and CCW. Even the Sarge.
- I'd like to see their DT get a searchlight, smoke and cam net.

Any other buffs they need I'd like to see coming from the pseudo-doctrines, stormtrooper orders or signature equipment (like improved grenades, flamers, and maybe some special wargear and/or relics).

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a whole lot wrong with a grip of units beyond just Ratlings and RR's. Ogryns, Scions, Vanquishers, Demolishers, LRBT's, Basilisks, etc all have major functionality issues and the internal balance of the book is absolutely horrific. That's not even getting into the giant pile of gak that is heavy & special weapons teams.

The book is only "ok" in the sense that, against pre-2015 armies, you could use like 40% of the book to make "OK' armies, which was enough to at least play for most players. Aside from that, it's got a lot of issues, and GW's design philosophy trend doesn't seem to be going out of its way to address the 2015 books power level issues any time soon

Ogryns are entirely fine, there's just too much things that delete them too easily. As said, tone down what's broken, don't buff what's alright. Ogryns will make a good melee bully unit once Wraithknight and that whole category is fixed - it's basically a unit of Warbosses, after all. I am not sure of their pts cost in the latest codex, maybe it needs a tweak, but I doubt it. The unit is absolutely brutal against most infantry in melee, even other melee specialists.

Who uses Ogryns? They're extremely vulnerable to Ld issues, and for what they cost, they're really bad next to equivalent units from other books. There's a reason you don't see them in armies.

I can't recall the last time I saw a unit of these on a table, anywhere.

Warbosses work because they have a huge number of S10 AP2 attacks and are hiding with tons of meatsheilds, and are sporting LD9. Ogryns have none of these things.

Ogryns also have no effective delivery method. They have no assault transport, they're not particularly fast, and they're not really very durable either. T5 W3 is cool and all, but with a 5+sv and Ld6/7, they're not hard to either burn down or break, especially when they either have to ride in a Chimera (and wait a turn after disembarking to assault anything) or footslog it across the board.

They're 40pts a piece with a 5+sv and Ld6/7. They cost as much as a Space Wolf TWC, with significantly lower Ld, lower Init, 5+ instead of 3+ armor, fewer attacks, no Rending, *way* slower speed, no Counterattack/ATSKNF/Acute Senses, and basically no upgrade options. The only upside is they get an extra wound. Next to Necron Wraiths for the same price, they're even worse off.

Vanquishers get a co-axial heavy stubber. Done. Negligible firepower increase, main gun accuracy boosted to 75% from 50%, making it more reliable.

That might have sufficed in 5th. With the changes to vehicles, and the move away from big heavy powerful weapons to HP's and simply stripping hull points, that doesn't work as well. Given the chance that all three stubber shots miss as well, you're getting an average hit rate of 0.71875 (and only applies to half the main gun's range), which while still better, still isn't quite as good as might otherwise be expected. Ultimately, even with that enhanced hit rate, it means that, on average, against an AV14 HP3 target in the open with no saves of any kind, it'll just barely HP that target out over a 6 turn game (if it's a Land Raider it probably won't manage to kill it), and only inflict an Explodes result every 14.3 turns. Against an AV11 3 HP target like a Rhino with a 5+ cover save, even with the stubber, it'll struggle to HP out that target over a 6 turn game and inflict an Explodes result only every 13.7 turns. For a triple digit, heavy support tank hunter, that's pretty bad. With the way the way vehicle kill works currently, it really needs AP1 on top of the stubber to be an effective tank hunter, particularly when so many platforms can just jink away hits or find other ways of getting cover saves against single-shot heavy hitting weapons. That would, in conjunction with the stubber, allow it to at least inflict an average of 1 Explodes result against an AV14 target over a *7* turn game, assuming the target is both in the open with no cover save and within half range of the main gun.

Demolishers are 100% fine. They are Vindicators +1 with more weapons and better AV. They do a 24" 'zone of death' job well.

Only in terms of armor are they a "+1", but they do that at +3 cost. A naked Demolisher is 50pts more than a Vindicator, a 42% price premium, and can't ever move more than 6": (whereas a Vindicattor can move 12" and flat out 6" if it needs to reposition to get into range), and can't ever make effective use of upgrade weapons due to the fact that Heavy does not do anything about the restrictions Ordnance imposes on shooting other weapons. Sure, the Demolisher gets better armor, but that's not worth 50pts, and especially not with the corresponding speed issues. The time when 170pts for an S10 AP2 24" pieplate was worth it are long gone. If they were 20pts cheaper and Ordnance didn't interfere with using other weapons, they'd be perfect, but unfortunately, neither of these things are true. The LRBT suffers from much the same problems, and the increasing levels of T5 and things with invul saves or "not saves" like RP, as well as the changes to vehicle kill, have made the once fearsome Battlecnnon much less scary than it was in say, 4th or 5th edition.

Basilisks suffer from tables that are too small. The unit is best suited for Apocalypse, for shooting those fethers over on the other side of the hall. I have no idea of why it is in small 40k games to begin with, long-range artillery deployed in 'knife fight' range.

That goes for many units, such as the Deathstrike But, either way, it's been a codex unit since 2E, and has remained unchanged since 3E, and largely ignored and not given table space for the same amount of time by most players

Heavy & special weapons teams need more cheap meatshields. Let them take conscripts as in-squad escorts to absorb weapons fire. Done. Makes perfect sense that the Guard would protect valuable heavy weapons with cheap bodies.

The problem is still that they're exceedingly easy to attack through Ld, extra bodies would just inflate their cost even more, and they're still putting out rather unimpressive firepower for what they cost. Likewise, with Special Weapons Squads, more than bodies, they need a delivery system, they don't even have the option to take a transport.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Spoiler:

There's a whole lot wrong with a grip of units beyond just Ratlings and RR's. Ogryns, Scions, Vanquishers, Demolishers, LRBT's, Basilisks, etc all have major functionality issues and the internal balance of the book is absolutely horrific. That's not even getting into the giant pile of gak that is heavy & special weapons teams.

The book is only "ok" in the sense that, against pre-2015 armies, you could use like 40% of the book to make "OK' armies, which was enough to at least play for most players. Aside from that, it's got a lot of issues, and GW's design philosophy trend doesn't seem to be going out of its way to address the 2015 books power level issues any time soon

Ogryns are entirely fine, there's just too much things that delete them too easily. As said, tone down what's broken, don't buff what's alright.

Ogryns will make a good melee bully unit once Wraithknight and that whole category is fixed - it's basically a unit of Warbosses, after all. I am not sure of their pts cost in the latest codex, maybe it needs a tweak, but I doubt it. The unit is absolutely brutal against most infantry in melee, even other melee specialists.

I hadn't thought of Scions as they are their own codex now, but they need another job. Mediocre anti-MEQ is not enough. Give them high RoF S3 Ap4 at good range or something, and perhaps a pts drop.

Vanquishers get a co-axial heavy stubber. Done. Negligible firepower increase, main gun accuracy boosted to 75% from 50%, making it more reliable.

Demolishers are 100% fine. They are Vindicators +1 with more weapons and better AV. They do a 24" 'zone of death' job well.

Basilisks suffer from tables that are too small. The unit is best suited for Apocalypse, for shooting those fethers over on the other side of the hall. I have no idea of why it is in small 40k games to begin with, long-range artillery deployed in 'knife fight' range.

Heavy & special weapons teams need more cheap meatshields. Let them take conscripts as in-squad escorts to absorb weapons fire. Done. Makes perfect sense that the Guard would protect valuable heavy weapons with cheap bodies.

I think people are crazy thinking AM just need some tweaks and points drops. The army is terrrriibbbllle. We're the glass without the cannon.

It's time for fundamental changes. Meta changing system breaking changes.

How about
- pf is +3s instead of 2x
- Russes get superheavy rules. Av 14/13/13.
- remove grav and gauss rules

Suddenly melta bombs and chainfists matter. You would finally be able to push forward a squadron of punisher tanks. Infantry hiding behind the tanks as opposed to out front stupid style. Opponents would need dedicated anti-tank as opposed to just any unit in his list.

GCox wrote:


How about

- remove grav and gauss rules

We all know that is never going to happen

- pf is +3s instead of 2x

And this changes things how?

- Russes get superheavy rules. Av 14/13/13

AV 14/13/12 should be enough, that and giving them back their Lumbering Back.

GCox wrote:
- Russes get superheavy rules. Av 14/13/13.
- remove grav and gauss rules

It's hardly fair to ask for your own exceptions to ignore core rules (using Superheavy) when at the same time you're taking away someone else's (sidestepping AV). I think you hit on a real point though. 40k is continually devising ways for units and armies to ignore fundamental basics of wargaming such as terrain effects, morale, movement, armour values, vehicle damage, and action sequences. As a clasically styled WW2 army, the IG thematically won't ignore these. In fact people play them because they're more grounded.

In terms of unit choices AM is dated, their codex reflects the old school FOC where armies were much more similar and everyone fielded some kind of equivalent unit in each of the major categories. That's why there's so little synergy across the codex and changing points won't fix this either. At this point I think it's time to rip apart the Codex and start over, with the focus on developing the theme and how the army should handle first, and fleshing out the units second.

GW is actually turning out really good books lately (Necron, Eldar, DA, SM). AM is unfortunately among last in line but I'm sure when they get a rework it's going to be much deeper than simply shuffling around points. Could be a while though.

Or be an Age of Emprah book. I doubt they'll update the whole line before next edition.

 Selym wrote:
Or be an Age of Emprah book. I doubt they'll update the whole line before next edition.

There is no reliable evidence that 40k is going to see such a drastic shift as Fantasy has.

Fantasy wasn't selling. That's why they opted to do what they did.
40k is selling.

And this changes things how?

str7+d6 can't do much to new russes with av 13 butts, and if those new russes buy the +1AV upgrade they are immune to melee. So you take only russes and russ Characters and drive through the enemy with non grav anti tank weapons having too few ways to stop you. Only the D eldar would be a hard match up, although you could always refuse to play eldar players on the base of them having an OP army.

Makumba wrote:

And this changes things how?

str7+d6 can't do much to new russes with av 13 butts, and if those new russes buy the +1AV upgrade they are immune to melee. So you take only russes and russ Characters and drive through the enemy with non grav anti tank weapons having too few ways to stop you. Only the D eldar would be a hard match up, although you could always refuse to play eldar players on the base of them having an OP army.

Melta. Bomb.

Meltagun

Multimelta

Lascannon

Powerfist

Chainfist

etcetera

 Vaktathi wrote:
Who uses Ogryns? They're extremely vulnerable to Ld issues, and for what they cost, they're really bad next to equivalent units from other books. There's a reason you don't see them in armies.

I can't recall the last time I saw a unit of these on a table, anywhere.

Warbosses work because they have a huge number of S10 AP2 attacks and are hiding with tons of meatsheilds, and are sporting LD9. Ogryns have none of these things.

Ogryns also have no effective delivery method. They have no assault transport, they're not particularly fast, and they're not really very durable either. T5 W3 is cool and all, but with a 5+sv and Ld6/7, they're not hard to either burn down or break, especially when they either have to ride in a Chimera (and wait a turn after disembarking to assault anything) or footslog it across the board.

They're 40pts a piece with a 5+sv and Ld6/7. They cost as much as a Space Wolf TWC, with significantly lower Ld, lower Init, 5+ instead of 3+ armor, fewer attacks, no Rending, *way* slower speed, no Counterattack/ATSKNF/Acute Senses, and basically no upgrade options. The only upside is they get an extra wound. Next to Necron Wraiths for the same price, they're even worse off.

I knew you'd make this argument, so I specifically said that once you toned down what is OP Ogryns will be entirely fine, and Wraiths + TWC are in that category. Believe it or not, most melee unit entries are not that strong, and against Berzerkers, Scorpions, Banshees, Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, most kinds of Ork, Hormagaunts, Tyranid Warriors, etc. etc. they are utterly brutal and do much better than Terminators would. Wraiths + TWC seem extraordinarily common, which they are because they are so strong, but in terms of actual unit entries they are much fewer. it's easier to get the 20% down to the 80% than it is to get the 80% up to the 20%.

That might have sufficed in 5th. With the changes to vehicles, and the move away from big heavy powerful weapons to HP's and simply stripping hull points, that doesn't work as well. Given the chance that all three stubber shots miss as well, you're getting an average hit rate of 0.71875 (and only applies to half the main gun's range), which while still better, still isn't quite as good as might otherwise be expected. Ultimately, even with that enhanced hit rate, it means that, on average, against an AV14 HP3 target in the open with no saves of any kind, it'll just barely HP that target out over a 6 turn game (if it's a Land Raider it probably won't manage to kill it), and only inflict an Explodes result every 14.3 turns. Against an AV11 3 HP target like a Rhino with a 5+ cover save, even with the stubber, it'll struggle to HP out that target over a 6 turn game and inflict an Explodes result only every 13.7 turns. For a triple digit, heavy support tank hunter, that's pretty bad. With the way the way vehicle kill works currently, it really needs AP1 on top of the stubber to be an effective tank hunter, particularly when so many platforms can just jink away hits or find other ways of getting cover saves against single-shot heavy hitting weapons. That would, in conjunction with the stubber, allow it to at least inflict an average of 1 Explodes result against an AV14 target over a *7* turn game, assuming the target is both in the open with no cover save and within half range of the main gun.

Wait, lol, it isn't AP1? I had no idea. That's bs. It should deffo be.

Only in terms of armor are they a "+1", but they do that at +3 cost. A naked Demolisher is 50pts more than a Vindicator, a 42% price premium, and can't ever move more than 6": (whereas a Vindicattor can move 12" and flat out 6" if it needs to reposition to get into range), and can't ever make effective use of upgrade weapons due to the fact that Heavy does not do anything about the restrictions Ordnance imposes on shooting other weapons. Sure, the Demolisher gets better armor, but that's not worth 50pts, and especially not with the corresponding speed issues. The time when 170pts for an S10 AP2 24" pieplate was worth it are long gone. If they were 20pts cheaper and Ordnance didn't interfere with using other weapons, they'd be perfect, but unfortunately, neither of these things are true. The LRBT suffers from much the same problems, and the increasing levels of T5 and things with invul saves or "not saves" like RP, as well as the changes to vehicle kill, have made the once fearsome Battlecnnon much less scary than it was in say, 4th or 5th edition.

I run foot CSM, and believe me, when your battle cannon can wipe 150 points from the board with each shot I still consider it scary.

A Vindicator is 13/11/10, and if you compare that to the Demolisher, you do see that there's a fair difference in armour value. Maybe it needs to be a little cheaper, but nothing drastic.

The problem is still that they're exceedingly easy to attack through Ld, extra bodies would just inflate their cost even more, and they're still putting out rather unimpressive firepower for what they cost. Likewise, with Special Weapons Squads, more than bodies, they need a delivery system, they don't even have the option to take a transport.

I don't see a solution if you think heavy weapons teams lack LD, other than perhaps making them cheaper. Boosting their LD would be illogical.

Special weapon squads getting transports seems fair.

Side note: Ordnance fix is another change that needs to happen. Not only IG suffers from that, though. Defilers, anyone?

The thing is the HWT's are utterly usless. Even with Mortars you are talking 55 points worth of BS3 T3 models sitting at the back and doing nothing effective for what they cost.

Demolishers likewise are waaaaayyyyyy to pricey. For +50 points you are gaining a little extra armour and losing your speed and BS. Its the same with Leman Russ. Sure they look scary but they dont ignore cover. ans when you fire all the other weapons are snap shooting on the LRBT, the Demolisher and the Eradicator.They just struggle to compete with other tanks and armies and feel lackluster.

The Vanquisher is actually a worse tank hunter than the Exterminator. an Exterminator on the flank will massacre most vehicles whilst the Vanquisher will struggle to kill an Ork Trukk in less than 4 to 5 turns.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The thing is the HWT's are utterly usless. Even with Mortars you are talking 55 points worth of BS3 T3 models sitting at the back and doing nothing effective for what they cost.

Pretty much. They just have too many issues:
- No mobility
- Terrible survivability (far less than 6 guardsmen, but cost 50% more even before weapons)
- Ld7 means they can easily run away, and they have to text if they lose a single base
- Ld7 also means they're terrible at passing orders, which they desperately need
- Can't take sergeants or vox casters to help with the above
- Autocannons, missile launchers and Lascannons are far from great in the current edition, and these are only firing at BS3
- More minor point, but they're so low on the ground that it's really easily for screening-squads to completely block their LoS

Actually, on this subject, what do people think of the Orders mechanic in terms of the limit of 2 orders per officer? I ask because, to me, this seems like a further flaw when it comes to HWTs. In general, they're really reliant on orders to do anything, but you're really limited in how many you can give useful orders (Bring it Down, Fire on my Target) to.

I guess it just seems counter-intuitive to have units that are basically designed to be taken en masse, but then have really minuscule limits on how many you can issue orders to.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Makumba wrote:

And this changes things how?

str7+d6 can't do much to new russes with av 13 butts, and if those new russes buy the +1AV upgrade they are immune to melee. So you take only russes and russ Characters and drive through the enemy with non grav anti tank weapons having too few ways to stop you. Only the D eldar would be a hard match up, although you could always refuse to play eldar players on the base of them having an OP army.

Melta. Bomb.

Meltagun

Multimelta

Lascannon

Powerfist

Chainfist

etcetera

Lascannons won't get through cover same with multi meltas and melta guns. melta bombs won't get in to range, because you will just focus fire units that have them. powerfists do nothing vs av13+ when they max they can roll is 13. etc etc.

Add to it orders letting your russes ignore cover or shot multiple times and you could blow up whole armies with a tank company. Just like they did in 3ed.

Makumba wrote:

Lascannons won't get through cover same with multi meltas and melta guns.

With that logic, Dark Eldar have no credible anti-vehicle whatsoever.

Wait... what am I saying? Point withdrawn.


Anyway, I do think rear armour 13 is a bit too much for Leman Russ tanks. +1 rear armour might be reasonable though (so it'd be AV11 for most of them, and AV12 for the 3 that are currently AV11). Or is AV12 on those 3 still too much?

Pretty sure that AV values are not a reasonable request here guys. When is the last time GW bumped an AV from one codex to another? 5th edition?

 vipoid wrote:

Actually, on this subject, what do people think of the Orders mechanic in terms of the limit of 2 orders per officer? I ask because, to me, this seems like a further flaw when it comes to HWTs. In general, they're really reliant on orders to do anything, but you're really limited in how many you can give useful orders (Bring it Down, Fire on my Target) to.

F*ck the Order mechanic, that's my opinion. The Guard needs something like the Skitarii Imperatives: a bunch of Order-equivalent Doctrines the AM player can pick at the start of its Turn to give a specific bonus to his whole army without rolling anything and retain that bonus until he chooses another. Now that would help a lot!

 AtoMaki wrote:
The Guard needs something like the Skitarii Imperatives: a bunch of Order-equivalent Doctrines the AM player can pick at the start of its Turn to give a specific bonus to his whole army without rolling anything and retain that bonus until he chooses another. Now that would help a lot!

Pretty much the first time there's a Decurion-style formation, you will get this,

It'll probably also involve a points discount too since GW realises it lets players run bigger armies at the same points level (this letting you buy more models). Free weapons for HWT or some crap like that.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
The Guard needs something like the Skitarii Imperatives: a bunch of Order-equivalent Doctrines the AM player can pick at the start of its Turn to give a specific bonus to his whole army without rolling anything and retain that bonus until he chooses another. Now that would help a lot!

Pretty much the first time there's a Decurion-style formation, you will get this,

It'll probably involve a points discount too since GW realises it lets players run bigger armies at the same points level (this letting you buy more models). Free weapons for HWT or some crap like that.

Nah, the Army Detachment would have unit recycling, FW-style (so the recycled units get a considerable buff when they return). Vehicles return too, but only if you have spare models because you cannot remove the wrecks.

How about a Planetary Defense Force, or Combined Imperial Armies Force? Something similar to the detachment from IA 13, but for imperials

Just spit-balling

3-6 HQ
3-8 troop
0-3 Elite
0-3 FA
2-5 Heavy
0-3 Lords of War
1-4 Fortifications

Astartes Advisors- Independent Characters with the ATSKNF USR replace it with The Emperors Finest, and replace Chapter Tactics (Chapter) with Tactical Advisory (chapter)

Command Benefits- if this is your primary detachment you gain the following benefits:

Hold Your Ground- All AM units gain Objective Secured, and AM units within 12" of an Astartes model may re-role failed Leadership (yes for orders too) tests.

Tyrant- If an Astartes IC is chosen as your Warlord all Astartes units benefit from The Tyrants Due USR

Chain of Command- If a model with the senior officer special rule is chosen as your warlord and is killed you may immediately select any model with the Voice of Command USR. That model generate a new warlord trait and is treated as your warlord for the remainder of the game.

Inquisitorial Fire Discipline- if an Inquisitor is chosen as the force's warlord, all AM units in the detachment gain the following USR So long as the warlord is on the table and alive: (Maleus): Prefered Enemy Deamons (all deamons), (Hereticus)Prefered Enemy Psykers, CSM, (Xenos) Prefered Enemy; Orks, Tau, Eldar, DE, Necrons.

The Emperors Finest- A unit with at least one model with this special rule automatically passes all fear checks. Units falling back automatically pass any attempts to regroup. Additionally if the unit falls back from melee combat, and is swept, all models with The Emperors Finest remain locked in combat while all remaining models fall back as normal.

 Ashiraya wrote:

I knew you'd make this argument, so I specifically said that once you toned down what is OP Ogryns will be entirely fine, and Wraiths + TWC are in that category.

They're the closest equivalents in terms of stats, size, and role, aside from Tyranid Warriors, who aren't looked favorably upon and are still drastically superior (being Troops, 10ppm cheaper, with better WS, Init, Ld/Fearless+Synapse, tons of options including power weapon equivalents, and Drop Pod delivery methods).

Ultimately however, expecting these other units to get toned down is not something anyone can count on or expect. GW certainly doesn't look to be reversing that trend, and TWC's & Wraiths are amongst the closest equivalent units.

Believe it or not, most melee unit entries are not that strong, and against Berzerkers, Scorpions, Banshees, Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, most kinds of Ork, Hormagaunts, Tyranid Warriors, etc. etc. they are utterly brutal and do much better than Terminators would.

Many of these units don't fill the same role, and comparisons will be somewhat wonky. Even then, almost all of these other units do much better than Ogryns do.

Lets look at Assault Marines by comparison, a unit many find fairly lackluster.. For basically the same price as a barebones Ogryn squad (140pts vs 130), you can get 10 Assault Marines. The Assault Marines are going to beat the Ogryn in comba (assuming neither side charges) by a 2-1 wound ratio, while the Ogryns only have 9 wounds to the AM's 10, meaning they're going to lose a battle of attrition, and that's assuming the Ogryns don't break on Ld7. The Assault Marines are much faster and thus more likely to get off a charge and engage when and where they want to, and had a much wider array, and far more useful variety, of upgrade options. If we look at their effectiveness against another target that both are seemingly optimized to engaged, say an Ork Mob, the Assault Marines still come out on top. If we use those same squads as above, the three charging Ogryn inflict an average of 5.27 wounds on the Orks, while the Assault Marines inflict 8.33 wounds on average.

Even getting off a charge against roughly equivalent points of Orks, assuming no characters or powerklaws (very much to the advantage of the Ogryns), if the Orks don't break, the Ogryns should only win the first round of combat, and suffer more wounds than the Orks in a round 2, and eventually lose a battle of attrition, assuming they don't break, through breaking is likely on both units if they lose a round of combat.

We can do the same analysis with say, Striking Scorpions. assuming 8 SS's vs 3 Ogryn for 136 vs 130pts. Again, assuming no charges, the SS's inflict an average of 4.44 wounds on the Ogryns, the Ogryns inflict an average of 1 back (particularly as 1 Ogryn will already be dead), losing even harder than they did against the Assault Marines.


Going through the rest of the list, the result will not generally be much in the Ogryns favor in any of them except the Banshees (who shouldn't be fighting things like Ogryns anyway). Even with terminators, and even if we want to talk Tac termi's, the Ogryns do better against weeny infantry like Orks (which they're not really intended to fight anyway), but the Terminators are going to win an even-points fight against the Ogryns.

Wait, lol, it isn't AP1? I had no idea. That's bs. It should deffo be.

Yeah, it's only AP2

Only in terms of armor are they a "+1", but they do that at +3 cost. A naked Demolisher is 50pts more than a Vindicator, a 42% price premium, and can't ever move more than 6": (whereas a Vindicattor can move 12" and flat out 6" if it needs to reposition to get into range), and can't ever make effective use of upgrade weapons due to the fact that Heavy does not do anything about the restrictions Ordnance imposes on shooting other weapons. Sure, the Demolisher gets better armor, but that's not worth 50pts, and especially not with the corresponding speed issues. The time when 170pts for an S10 AP2 24" pieplate was worth it are long gone. If they were 20pts cheaper and Ordnance didn't interfere with using other weapons, they'd be perfect, but unfortunately, neither of these things are true. The LRBT suffers from much the same problems, and the increasing levels of T5 and things with invul saves or "not saves" like RP, as well as the changes to vehicle kill, have made the once fearsome Battlecnnon much less scary than it was in say, 4th or 5th edition.

I run foot CSM, and believe me, when your battle cannon can wipe 150 points from the board with each shot I still consider it scary.

If you're footslogging MEQ's in the open against Battlecannons, sure, but in general this is a far less common thing than in previous editions, and many things that once were "MEQ" equivalents that battlecannons would be highly effective against, have changed in ways that make them much more resilient (e.g. Striking Scorpions getting a ton of cover enhancing bonuses, Necron units and the new functionality of RP, Jink on Bike units, shield drones and shield generators becoming much more functional for Tau Suit units relative to 4E/5E, venomthrope broods providing cover to advancing lines of units, etc)

A Vindicator is 13/11/10, and if you compare that to the Demolisher, you do see that there's a fair difference in armour value. Maybe it needs to be a little cheaper, but nothing drastic.

It is a fair difference in armor value, but the ability of the Vindicator to be able to redeploy if it needs to (which the Demolisher cannot do), with additional reduced scatter, and the inability of a Demolisher to make use of its other weapons (since they must all snapfire if the main gun shoots) are all things that drag down its viability. LR's in general need that latter issue addressed, and the Demolisher really should be more ~150pts than ~170.

The problem is still that they're exceedingly easy to attack through Ld, extra bodies would just inflate their cost even more, and they're still putting out rather unimpressive firepower for what they cost. Likewise, with Special Weapons Squads, more than bodies, they need a delivery system, they don't even have the option to take a transport.

I don't see a solution if you think heavy weapons teams lack LD, other than perhaps making them cheaper. Boosting their LD would be illogical.

They don't need to be Ld10/Fearless (though Ld8 like other IG units would help), but for their squad size (and vulnerability to Ld tests), reliance on orders, and cost, which is generally 75-105pts after guns (for BS3 T3 5+sv Ld7 6 wound units that are effectively 3 wound units against S6+ shooting), they just aren't particularly functional.

There are some alternatives that I suggested earlier in the thread. If we look at a basic Infantry Squad, and take inferences from other books where sergeants giving +1A and +1Ld are generally worth 10pts, we can see that basic guardsmen are considered about 4pts each. If we apply the same costing to HWS's (which lack sergeants), this makes them worth 24pts before upgrades. Cut 20-25pts off each unit and you have a more realistic price for what they're really worth. Three BS3 T3 LD7 models with autocannons is probably worth ~50pts, not 75. The ability to "blob" them would also be really helpful. Alternatively, if we don't just want to make them absurdly cheap for fears of an absurdly powerful alpha strike, they could be treated differently. We've got two gunners and a large weapon, and the models typically have a gun shield and some sort of "entrenchment" like sand bags that come with the model, why not make them a T5 gun team? Like T7 Artillery, but not quite as impressive.

Side note: Ordnance fix is another change that needs to happen. Not only IG suffers from that, though. Defilers, anyone?

Indeed, and especially with the absurd 50pt price hike they got with the 2012 book, those things are in serious need of some help.

Random crazy idea about the Basilisk: instead of dropping its price or anything, what about making its shot use the Apocalyptic Mega-Blast template (the 12" three-in-one blast)? The inner blast is S9 AP3 as normal, the middle blast is S6 AP5, and the outer blast is S3 AP-. The ultimate artillery piece or 'Nice Green Tide You Have There'.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Random crazy idea about the Basilisk: instead of dropping its price or anything, what about making its shot use the Apocalyptic Mega-Blast template (the 12" three-in-one blast)? The inner blast is S9 AP3 as normal, the middle blast is S6 AP5, and the outer blast is S3 AP-. The ultimate artillery piece or 'Nice Green Tide You Have There'.

Two very simple fixes, taken from the original Cityfight book, that would remedy the Leman Russ ordnance issues, these should apply to all armies:

- Ordnance, these weapons hit with such massive force that they shatter trees and trenches alike, all cover saves against ordnance weapons -1 to their dice roll.

- Earthshaker ordnance, the bone-rattling impact of artillery and demolisher shells rips through buildings and bone like paper. Cover saves suffer an additional -1 to their dice rolls when rolling for wounds taken from ordnance weapons that are strength 9 or 10. This is cumulative with the -1 from the ordnance special rule.

Now you can actually use the demolisher and basilisk for their intended purposes, laying siege to entrenched infantry and vehicles.