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 master of ordinance wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.

But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"

IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.

Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.

Having spent the last two years playing IG against C:SM (and recently joining C:SM), I can safely say that, compared to IG, C:SM has:

-Better Shooting
-Better Assaulting
-Better Mobility
-Higher Toughness Per Point
-Waaay More Freebies
-More Vehicles
-More Reliable Vehicles
-Better Solutions To Tactical Situations
-Better Deployment Options
-More Efficient Troops
-More Viable Units

But wait, CSM are supposed to be by far the worst MEQ uni-MEQ. Ah. Yes, I see.

I have no idea where this conversation is going

C:SM (Codex: Space Marines) != CSM (Chaos Space Marines).

CSM is flat-out terrible, almost on par with IG

 Selym wrote:
CSM is flat-out terrible, almost on par with IG

Im not so sure - I made a discovery at my club yesterday. Amidst the vast number of SM, Eldar, GK, SW and DA players there was another IG player, one I have not seen in around 6 months. He runs this amazing Russian themed Valhallan army with Leman Russ converted to look like JS1's, KV2's and the like.
He was facing CSM
And he was losing.

I mean on-par for terribleness. To win with CSM, you need to ignore all the fluff, straight powergame, and rules-lawyer.

@Selym. Tempestus outdoes IG in most of those categories. Seriously, I'm not joking.

This ~1850pts list, with an MT primary, placed higher than every single IG primary at Adepticon.

Primary detachment: Militarum Tempestus
- Scion command squad w/ x4 hotshot volley guns + taurox prime ( twinlinked autocannon, cyclone missiles)
- Scion squad x6 w/ x2 melta guns + taurox prime ( twinlinked autocannon, cyclone missiles)
- Scion squad x6 w/ x2 melta guns + taurox prime ( twinlinked autocannon, cyclone missiles)
- Scion squad x6 w/ x2 melta guns + taurox prime ( twinlinked autocannon, cyclone missiles)

Unique detachment - greyknight teleportation strikeforce
- Librarian w/ lvl.3 mastery, cuirass of sacrifice
- Terminators x6 w/ psycannon, daemonhammer
- Dreadknight w/ teleporter, heavy psycannon, heavy incinerator

Unique detachment - Knights
- Knight Paladin

You know you're hurting when your supplement with allies outperforms your own Codex.

Damn, son.

Great. Imperial Guard feel even worse now.

Lol sorry guys!

If you want we can start compiling houserules now

All Leman Russ cost 100 points less and have LB. Come at me Marine bro

Nah, you go at them. Here's some inspiration for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7qm4jgqDxE

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nah, you go at them. Here's some inspiration for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7qm4jgqDxE

*twitch*
That film made me scream. It is about as historically accurate as a Roman vs Celts film with rifles in it.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nah, you go at them. Here's some inspiration for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7qm4jgqDxE

*twitch*
That film made me scream. It is about as historically accurate as a Roman vs Celts film with rifles in it.

I don't know, wasn't too bad. I actually really liked the movie, and wasn't bothered by any inaccuracies I found. Not like some of the Ancient Rome and Greece films that have made their way to the theatre.

Plus it had Brad Pitt.

Yoyoyo wrote:
@Selym. Tempestus outdoes IG in most of those categories. Seriously, I'm not joking.

This ~1850pts list, with an MT primary, placed higher than every single IG primary at Adepticon.

Primary detachment: Militarum Tempestus
- Scion command squad w/ x4 hotshot volley guns + taurox prime ( twinlinked autocannon, cyclone missiles)
- Scion squad x6 w/ x2 melta guns + taurox prime ( twinlinked autocannon, cyclone missiles)
- Scion squad x6 w/ x2 melta guns + taurox prime ( twinlinked autocannon, cyclone missiles)
- Scion squad x6 w/ x2 melta guns + taurox prime ( twinlinked autocannon, cyclone missiles)

Unique detachment - greyknight teleportation strikeforce
- Librarian w/ lvl.3 mastery, cuirass of sacrifice
- Terminators x6 w/ psycannon, daemonhammer
- Dreadknight w/ teleporter, heavy psycannon, heavy incinerator

Unique detachment - Knights
- Knight Paladin

You know you're hurting when your supplement with allies outperforms your own Codex.

Cool, albeit irrelevant to the topic. This list kinda looks like the list people are throwing around to "prove" Orks are great - it's 50%+ Daemon allies.

 Ignatius wrote:


Plus it had Brad Pitt.

Reprising the same role he played in Inglorious Basterds, a movie with about the same level of historical accuracy.

Meh, I don't massively struggle fighting C:SM. If you use clever movement you can wipe most squads in a turn of shooting. It's the Vehicles, characters, high toughness and wounds models that I find hard to kill while playing as guard. Now that is fighting any faction, I actually found it incredibly easy to kill light, medium and heavy infantry.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nah, you go at them. Here's some inspiration for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7qm4jgqDxE

*twitch*
That film made me scream. It is about as historically accurate as a Roman vs Celts film with rifles in it.

Meh bar the Tiger fight (which started off well enough) and the climax at the end it was fairly accurate. The first half of the film was pretty spot on. And this is coming from a guy who has been trying to get gaijin to improve their historical accuracy of vehicles and their weapons for about a year and a half now

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.

But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"

IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.

Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.

I can take IG and crush these lists. Surely an IG player can do the same. I can probably kill over 50% of either army before contact with a good IG list. From there's its using sacrificial units and taking advantage of not being able to consolidate into a new combat.

" Russian themed Valhallan army with Leman Russ converted to look like JS1's, KV2's and the like. "

Quit playing themed armies and bring things that work.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.

But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"

IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.

Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.

I can take IG and crush these lists. Surely an IG player can do the same. I can probably kill over 50% of either army before contact with a good IG list. From there's its using sacrificial units and taking advantage of not being able to consolidate into a new combat.

Are you using points values correctly? 'cause that's generally not possible.

SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.

For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.

That being said, I learned a lot about guard by playing against them a lot in 5th. Even though they are humbled, the basic ideas are still the same.

Martel732 651867 8095733l wrote:



Quit playing themed armies and bring things that work.

The argument following this one, after a few games, is to quit playing IG and just that things that work. Starting with shifting IG to blob+ multiple wyverns and ending with I may as well take more powerful ally for my army.

Martel732 wrote:
SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.

For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.

That being said, I learned a lot about guard by playing against them a lot in 5th. Even though they are humbled, the basic ideas are still the same.

Tbh I've just been completely unable to hit anything with my russes for quite a while now It's getting a tad frustrating.

Although I have noticed massed flashlights working rather well. Most my opponents still have hangovers units from 6th and as such still have a reasonable amount of mechanised units like marines in rhino's. They jump out, I rush them to get within "12 and generally the next turn the squad I've been shooting at is either running, dead or pretty much unable to hit back.

Martel732 wrote:
SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.

For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.

Really?

My memories of SWs involve nigh-invincible thunderwolves murdering every unit they touch.

Can we not let this devolve into a 'My army sucks more' competition? Before we know, we'll be balls deep in Sisters players reminding us how awful they have it.

There's a thread about marines being overpowered. Take your comparisons elsewhere.

And lol at telling someone to stop playing themed lists. The whole point of this discussion is to come up with ways that themed lists can function in a theoretical new codex.

Frankly, if someone made a 40k-ified IS/KV-2 styled tank (as in, properly scaled, being wider and shorter with proper gubbins), you couldn't get my credit card info faster.

Martel732 wrote:SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.

For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.

That being said, I learned a lot about guard by playing against them a lot in 5th. Even though they are humbled, the basic ideas are still the same.

Oh how I wish this was true Martel. Oh how I wish I had enough Battlecannons with enough accuracy to deal with the SM squads. How I wish that I could get them for a cheaper price than the mere 150 point chassis that they come on. How I wish that said chassis was more survivable.

The old 5th ed tactics might as well not exist. Tanks have been nerfed to obscurity and other codex's have got better whilst ours got worse. BA have fast moving units, fast moving transports, DS and assault troops. Landraiders are almost unkillable beyond Melta range for your average Guard army.
Blood Angles can get close very easily.

Space Wolves.... That outflanking formation which they can assault from. Need I say any more?

Blacksails wrote:

And lol at telling someone to stop playing themed lists. The whole point of this discussion is to come up with ways that themed lists can function in a theoretical new codex.

Frankly, if someone made a 40k-ified IS/KV-2 styled tank (as in, properly scaled, being wider and shorter with proper gubbins), you couldn't get my credit card info faster.

I will have to ask him where he got the conversion sets from or what parts he used. They are Leman Russ hulls at the base but converted to look awesome.

I laughed at the themed lists bit too. Right now even if I run the most competitive list that I can I still lose out too other players simply because their codex's are that much better than mine. I want to run a themed, fluffy list based on the WW2 armies and I have units assembled and painted up to match (Lee Enfield .303's as Lasguns, Sten Guns as Shotguns, Churchill VII's as LRBT's, etc for my British) but there is little point. A competitive IG list will lose out too a themed SM list.

Vic Minis is doing a Matilda-Russ that is very close in shape to the Matilda we all know and love, but scaled appropriately be just about the same footprint and height as a Russ, while having the standard comically sized cannons.

Seeing as I have not-Mordians, I feel a more British style tank/vehicle is more in keeping with the theme. That said, my next favourite designs would be Russian. I know some companies that produce a KV-2 turret with the 152mm howitzer, but I'd be looking for a hull that looked like the KV-2 but with proper sized MG ports for heavy bolters and other 40k weapons, not to mention being re-sized to fit with 40k's unique vehicle proportions.

I don't expect anyone to make such a complete kit, and further, not a complete line of similar vehicles for arty variants and IVF/APCs that fit the theme, but a man can dream.

Idea:

In the old (2nd edition) rules Lasguns had a longer range than Boltguns, with Bolters only reaching to 18" as they where seen as a shock assault weapon as opposed to the Lasguns which where seen as a more general purpose rifle.

How about giving Lasguns a 6" range boost to 30", allowing them to function more as the semi automatic long ranged weapons that they are described as being.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.

For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.

Really?

My memories of SWs involve nigh-invincible thunderwolves murdering every unit they touch.

I said for the most part. Yes, TWC is a thing. The only thing keeping SW viable in the current meta.

" BA have fast moving units, fast moving transports, DS and assault troops. Landraiders are almost unkillable beyond Melta range for your average Guard army.
Blood Angles can get close very easily. "

If that were true, I'd be doing it. First off, LR are dead in the current meta. So you don't need to worry unless you let your opponent list tailor. Don't do that. All those fast moving units and transports have poor durability/pt. That's a terrible flaw to have against a list like IG.

If you are worried about outflanking SW, use guardsmen to make it illegal to come in on the board in areas you care about. Guardsmen are cheap. Abuse that fact.

Martel732 wrote:
SThey don't have access to good formations, either.
And IG don't have /any/ formations.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
Battlecannons are not the typical loadout anymore, due to everyone else not footspamming their MEQ's.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
SThey don't have access to good formations, either.
And IG don't have /any/ formations.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
Battlecannons are not the typical loadout anymore, due to everyone else not footspamming their MEQ's.

You only need a couple battle cannon hits and a BA list is done. Obviously, you wouldn't use a ton of battlecannons, but a couple can just swing a battle against meqs.

Why are we still having a pissing match over who's codex is the worst?

Martel, go complain about BA elsewhere.

Every codex has problems. This thread is about IG and their problems and how to fix and improve it.

Well you need a new codex for that, and even then GW can just do some random stupid things, because crazy jervis finds IG too OP in his 20k points games test studio games.