How could they fix the Astra militarum with a new codex?

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**Blacksails**

Makumba wrote:
Well you need a new codex for that, and even then GW can just do some random stupid things, because crazy jervis finds IG too OP in his 20k points games test studio games.

Well, I think most of us expect random stupid things in the next codex. For the motivated person, this thread is just about the best resource we have to make the best possible Guard fan dex/FAQ/Errata for an official Guard codex.

**AtoMaki**

Blacksails wrote:

Every codex has problems. This thread is about IG and their problems and how to fix and improve it.

I have shared my opinion on the problems with the IG in another thread, so I will just copy+paste here:

I think the current problem with the AM is its terribad possible damage output / effective unit durability rate and the strange combined-arms cross-dependency. AM units can't really dish out that much damage before being incapacitated (either by being destroyed completely or losing their truly effective weapons), and while their numbers are supposed to counterbalance this, the fact that you need to take a lot of different stuff in order to make the army work, you will still end up with only a handful of the same units. The best example is the Leman Russ: its firepower... is 'meh' to be honest, though it can still deliver a punch in the right situation - however, it can be eliminated/disabled easily with the right weapons; to minimize the impact of these counters, the AM player has to take blobs (for wrapping), some sort of AA (as the LR can't do jacksh*t against flyers), and maybe a few specialists to say no to the tricksters (like LOS ignoring artillery, fast units to incapacitate long-range AT, stuff like that). Then, of course, you need support for the blob, defense for the AA (probably +1 blob), and support for the specialists - things the LR can't do, so you need moar units. Then, after you have a whole army around your LR(s), you can sit back and pour out that 'meh' shots and wait for the right moment (that either happens or not) so that your LR(s) can really shine.

Any my solution would be:

This is my take on the fundamental problem with the AM Codex. As a solution, I can imagine some sort of army-wide power boost (not point drops), so that individual units can do their stuff without relying on support, or they can support each other well even if there is only 2-3 different types of unit on the battlefield.

I kinda still stick to this. The main problem with the IG codex is cross-dependency (that is not equal to synergy, mind you), and the solution is increasing stand-alone effectiveness. Something like an automatic army-wide bonus-per-turn system like the Canticles of the Cult Mechanicus, replacing the Order System but providing the same bonuses (just more effectively). Or more special/heavy weapons, both in terms of type (lightning guns, heavy flamers, multi-meltas and assault cannons would be cool) and availability. Or 4 HP and a "you fire with whatever weapon you want wherever you want" special rule for the Leman Russ (also, remove Heavy).

**Martel732**

Blacksails wrote:
Why are we still having a pissing match over who's codex is the worst?

Martel, go complain about BA elsewhere.

Every codex has problems. This thread is about IG and their problems and how to fix and improve it.

You have to understand the problems first. Which evidently many people don't, or meq armies in general wouldn't be considered such a threat. The IG went down the tubes for the same reason that about 1/3 of BA stuff stopped working: vehicles and walkers became second class citizens. There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists. That's the reason for comparisons.

**Selym**

Martel732 wrote:
There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists.

Wat.

My Templars are shootier than most IG lists. And at two Land Raiders, are nearly impossible for IG to stop.

**Martel732**

Selym wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists.

Wat.

My Templars are shootier than most IG lists. And at two Land Raiders, are nearly impossible for IG to stop.

I'm talking about the actual guardmen, not the overall list. The problem is that yes, they are glass cannons. Good luck with your two land raiders against other foes. That's a very tailored list against IG, imo. Although I have seen IG lists with a decent amount of melta.

**Blacksails**

Martel732 wrote:

You have to understand the problems first. Which evidently many people don't, or meq armies in general wouldn't be considered such a threat. The IG went down the tubes for the same reason that about 1/3 of BA stuff stopped working: vehicles and walkers became second class citizens. There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists. That's the reason for comparisons.

I'm sure most people here understand the problems quite well.

The fact that another codex was hit for similar reasons isn't really relevant.

**Selym**

Martel732 wrote:
Selym wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists.

Wat.

My Templars are shootier than most IG lists. And at two Land Raiders, are nearly impossible for IG to stop.

I'm talking about the actual guardmen, not the overall list. The problem is that yes, they are glass cannons. Good luck with your two land raiders against other foes. That's a very tailored list against IG, imo. Although I have seen IG lists with a decent amount of melta.

I haven't had a game against guardsmen in years, but have been playing /as/ guardsmen.

Land Raiders are standard operating procedure of BT, btw. I use them against Smurfs.

**Martel732**

Thats not a list that would worry me at all as an ig player. Basically 500 wasted points from the get go.

**Selym**

The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.

**JohnHwangDD**

Selym wrote:
The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.

What if the only reason they're in range of your meltavets is because they just disgorged a bunch of Hammershield Termies or footASMs via Assault Ramp and wrapped your dudes in HtH? What then?

**Selym**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Selym wrote:
The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.

What if the only reason they're in range of your meltavets is because they just disgorged a bunch of Hammershield Termies or footASMs via Assault Ramp and wrapped your dudes in HtH? What then?

Are you on the side of SM > IG or IG > SM?

I'm arguing that if the IG is within 12" of a Land Raider, the IG are gonna lose.

**JohnHwangDD**

Side? Feth sides, man. What we need here is a little solidarity!

But yeah, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the LRs were going to lose because you actually got to melta them.

**Martel732**

Selym wrote:
The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.

Not at all.

**Selym**

Martel732 wrote:
Selym wrote:
The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.

Not at all.

Care to explain?

I occasionally do test games of my IG models vs my Templar models. I tend to be rather neutral in regards to who wins, and just do straight up dick moves against eachother, to see who takes the battering the best.

IG, when in 12" of a Land Raider at the end of a turn, will lose.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
Selym wrote:
The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.

Not at all.

Well people Martel is right, we do have the:

Horribly inaccurate Vanquisher which occasionally manages to kill a Rhino per game

Lascannon HWS whom might chip A HP off per turn

Missile HWS whom might chip off less than half a HP per turn

So yes, we do have plenty of AT stuff [/sarcasm]

If we get Veterans that close to a Landraider then the Landraider usually just pops its hatches and throws something so stupidly over powered against us that we might as well not have tried.

**TheCustomLime**

Our best source of AT are Imperial Knights. What a sad codex we have where we can't pop Land Raiders effectively without aid from other factions.

**Martel732**

master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Selym wrote:
The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.

Not at all.

Well people Martel is right, we do have the:

Horribly inaccurate Vanquisher which occasionally manages to kill a Rhino per game

Lascannon HWS whom might chip A HP off per turn

Missile HWS whom might chip off less than half a HP per turn

So yes, we do have plenty of AT stuff [/sarcasm]

If we get Veterans that close to a Landraider then the Landraider usually just pops its hatches and throws something so stupidly over powered against us that we might as well not have tried.

Usually, LR carry terminators. Which are awful. You don't need to kill the LRs. Just the contents. You can then ignore the LRs. They are a waste of 500 pts. It's almost like I've done that before or something.

**vipoid**

Martel732 wrote:

Usually, LR carry terminators. Which are awful.

It's fine - we'll even things up by counter-assaulting with Ogryns and Rough Riders.

**Martel732**

vipoid wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Usually, LR carry terminators. Which are awful.

It's fine - we'll even things up by counter-assaulting with Ogryns and Rough Riders.

Seriously? I thought I was down on a list. LRs with terminators is one of the easiest things in the game to neuter. That's assuming, of course, they don't immobilize themselves before they get to you. LR are so bad.

**Selym**

Martel732 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Selym wrote:
The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.

Not at all.

Well people Martel is right, we do have the:

Horribly inaccurate Vanquisher which occasionally manages to kill a Rhino per game

Lascannon HWS whom might chip A HP off per turn

Missile HWS whom might chip off less than half a HP per turn

So yes, we do have plenty of AT stuff [/sarcasm]

If we get Veterans that close to a Landraider then the Landraider usually just pops its hatches and throws something so stupidly over powered against us that we might as well not have tried.

Usually, LR carry terminators. Which are awful. You don't need to kill the LRs. Just the contents. You can then ignore the LRs. They are a waste of 500 pts. It's almost like I've done that before or something.

Hammernators are most certainly not a bad unit. Maybe not totally efficient against IG, but they like to crack tanks.

Try 15 Crusaders and a Melee HQ, however. There is not enough lube for my opponent when I use that.

**Martel732**

If you can stop the multi assault then the ig probably just won. The primary problem with any unit in a lr is the assault logic flow. Drive across the board, assault one unit, kill it and then die to shooting the next turn.

**Selym**

Martel732 wrote:
If you can stop the multi assault then the ig probably just won. The primary problem with any unit in a lr is the assault logic flow. Drive across the board, assault one unit, kill it and then die to shooting the next turn.

It's like you think that whoever uses assault will just auto lose.

You'd be surprised just how difficult it can be to stop SM units in short range.

**Martel732**

Selym wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If you can stop the multi assault then the ig probably just won. The primary problem with any unit in a lr is the assault logic flow. Drive across the board, assault one unit, kill it and then die to shooting the next turn.
It's like you think that whoever uses assault will just auto lose.

You'd be surprised just how difficult it can be to stop SM units in short range.

Considering mine get stopped all the time, and I stop others all the time that try to assault, I guess I would be surprised. I think assault is an auto lose because I live it. Not being able to consolidate into a new combat just makes it untenable most of the time. The flow is assault, suck up over watch -> win combat -> suck up a real shooting phase -> suck up overwatch again in order to assault. It doesn't take many cycles of this before you run out of army real fast. Especially if the IG player is feeding you 50 pt squads they don't care about.

All this assumes your LRs don't get stuck on the way over. I love it when it get stuck on some shrubs. Hey, it's "difficult terrain".

**master of ordinance**

Sheesh Martel, what do you run? I find that dealing with SM forces - even Vanilla SM forces - at short range is a nightmare that quickly results in me losing entire sections in a single turn. Tactical Marines make an utter mockery of my armies veterans and vanilla assault marines make red mush out of even my Company Command Section. Against close assault specialists like Blood Angels I have no chance.

Hell, I have to pray that I can bring enough firepower to bare in the next shooting phase or I am royally fethed sideways in the anus. Overwatch does jackgak, especially when from Lasguns and it is only the occasional lucky Melta shot that does anything to an assaulting opponent. My own assault specialists (Ogryns, Rough Riders) might as well not exist - if they have not been hit by an orbital bombardment and thus neutered already then the Ogryns will, at best, tie my opponents squad up for a few turns whilst my Rough Riders will, assuming that they do not die from overwatch and actually manage to hit anything and have not already been shot up, usually inflict severe casualties before being massacred either by the survivors or by enemy shooting or another squad assaulting them.

Assaulting is currently way to easy in 40K

**vipoid**

master of ordinance wrote:

Assaulting is currently way to easy in 40K

Too easy for some, too hard for others, IMO.

**Selym**

vipoid wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:

Assaulting is currently way to easy in 40K

Too easy for some, too hard for others, IMO.

Yea, CSM and Orks have an arse of a time getting gak done.

C:SM on the other hand, has been letting me massacre things up close.

**vipoid**

Really?

In my group I see orks getting into melee all the time.

**Selym**

Huh.

I haven't seen anyone win with Orks since that one time in early 6th, when someone tailored.

**Yoyoyo**

Martel732 wrote:
Especially if the IG player is feeding you 50 pt squads they don't care about.

Everything has a counter. MSU included.

**Grimskul**

Selym wrote:
Huh.

I haven't seen anyone win with Orks since that one time in early 6th, when someone tailored.

Orks have an easier time than many CC armies since we actually have widespread access to open topped transports from which to assault with. The Battlewagon Blitz Brigade gives 5 battlewagons scout which means even if you go second you're almost guaranteed to get at least something in combat by turn 2. Things like the Finkin' Cap giving a good likelihood of getting mass infiltrate is another method (hilarious when you infiltrate a green tide formation). Then we have things like Gunwagons that act as a cheap but sturdy option that's in between a trukk and a battlewagon. Throw in other speedy guys like deffkoptas or bikers to soak in some overwatch hits and the Gork's fist of your list can hit home pretty hard.