Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yoyoyo wrote:
You lose an average of 3 models, wiseguy

Let me guess - you play Space Marines?

Now, would you still play them if they dropped the armour to 4+, the Toughness, Weapon Skill, Strength and Initiative to 3 and the Leadership to 7 but kept the cost the same?

Yoyoyo wrote:
You lose an average of 3 models, wiseguy

Out of a unit of 10, and that's from playing the averages. Now imagine that happening on Overwatch.

Because as I wrote it? It specifically states until your next Shooting Phase--which means that you could theoretically have two rounds of shooting(your Shooting phase and an Overwatch if the unit gets charged) where you lose 3 models each turn.

And realistically, let's not forget that an "average" is just that. The average. Things could go well or horrible.

Nice try

Twin-link these guys and they'll one-shot a Jinking Flyrant without Skyfire.

They will lose 1x model (rounding up!)

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nice try

Twin-link these guys and they'll one-shot a Jinking Flyrant without Skyfire.

They will lose 1x model (rounding up!)

Yoyoyo, please reply to my question:

Would you use Space Marines if they had a Storm Troopers profile? IE: Where all 3's baring BS and had only a 4+ save.

 Selym wrote:
How about making IG good with less than £500 worth of stuff on the table.

Then new players wouldn't have to bankrupt themselves.

If I were to field my Tallarn IG as footsloggers at the "standard" 1850 pt level, I think I'd be very comfortably above that 500 GBP level. It'd be kinda nuts, and way too slow.

OTOH, according to GW store, it's 10 Tallarn for 25 GBP:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Tallarn-Squad

That's actually a very fair price when you consider that those crappy plastic Cadians are 18 GBP per squad. And if you like Mordians / Vostroyan / Valhallans / ASL, it's only 20.50 GBP per squad, barely 10% more than the plastic. Sure, the Praetorians are long gone, but it's still a hell of a deal if you don't want to be sheep following the herd.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nice try

Twin-link these guys and they'll one-shot a Jinking Flyrant without Skyfire.

Well it's not like the Hydra does its job of AA, we might as well have something that can do it!

They will lose 1x model (rounding up!)

Right--with twin linking. How are you getting Twin-Linking?

From Militarum Tempestus Orders, which are exclusive to that book. There is no way to obtain it in Astra Militarum--and truthfully, I do not foresee the MT book continuing to exist.

Additionally, the way to issue said Order is from an HQ slot--and to be able to issue said Order?
The Scion squad has to be 12" away from the Scion Command Squad and pass a LD test, and guess what? Those twin-linked shots are specifically for the duration of the ordered Shooting Attack. So, if you make a "Directed Firestorm Sanctioned!" Order then you are unable to make your actual Shooting Attack--which would mean that you could not perform an Overcharge per the way I wrote it.

And any double 6s rolled, lock you out of Orders for the turn.

 master of ordinance wrote:
How about making the Baneblade variants cheaper (as in around 260 points - that new Tau dickery monster is only 360 and it can fire all its guns twice if it does not move) and making the model itself cheaper. Also just make our units better.

260 would be too low. The "bad" mono-gun variants should still weigh in at 300+ pts, with the common Baneblade coming in around 350 pts, up to 375. If we just got the BB prices in the right ballpark, they'd be fine.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Squadron sizes are increased to 6 Russes.

Oh sweet summer child....there was a time when you could only take 1 Russ per HS slot...

Edit: Well I see you've been here since 2005, so just going along with the power-creep?

 SDFarsight wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Squadron sizes are increased to 6 Russes.

Oh sweet summer child....there was a time when you could only take 1 Russ per HS slot...

Edit: Well I see you've been here since 2005, so just going along with the power-creep?

Power creep implies that Leman Russes are the same terrifying beast they used to be.

Now, if they fire their cannon? They get penalized firing the remainder of their arsenal.
Now, they are half the points cost of something which is two or three times as survivable because it has no Hull Points.

I dream of a time when Leman Russes blot out the sun, raining doom and gloom upon all tables!


On a more serious note? I'm of the opinion that by starting off with something blatantly ridiculous and overpowering, it can be pared down to something more manageable.
However I'm really thinking that the Scion training might be an interesting little bit to try out.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Right--with twin linking. How are you getting Twin-Linking?

Divination, sherlock...

Are you sure you play IG?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Right--with twin linking. How are you getting Twin-Linking?

Divination, sherlock...

Are you sure you play IG?

You obviously do not. IG psykers? Wow, so useful. At those prices I could almost afford another tank.

IG divination psykers are great.

Yeah. I mean, they're like Librarians but arbitrarily worse.

They're cheap divination. That seems okay to me.

Cheap? How, by any stretch of the imagination, are they cheap? Sure, they appear to be until you look at their stats and realise that you might as well ally with the Marines and take a Librarian because at least he might just outlast a few stray shots and still be around for when he is needed.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Right--with twin linking. How are you getting Twin-Linking?

Divination, sherlock...

Alright then, Watson.

Never mind that some people just plain don't use Psykers, right? They must be idiots or not play the army the way you do.

Are you sure you play IG?

You stated "Twin-linked". You did NOT state "have Prescience cast on them". The two have functionally the same effect, but you would not say that using the "Directed Firestorm Sanctioned!" Order is "Using the Prescience Order".

One is a power called "Prescience" which allows rerolls of all failed to Hits and targets a single friendly unit within 12".
The other, "Twin-Linked" is not possible outside of a single Order from the Tempestus book.

But yeah. Forgive me for not knowing off the top of my head you're talking about Prescience, because I never flipping use Psykers. Ever. Not in my fledgling Raptors force, not in my Cadians, and most definitely not in my Skitarii.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Cheap? How, by any stretch of the imagination, are they cheap? Sure, they appear to be until you look at their stats and realise that you might as well ally with the Marines and take a Librarian because at least he might just outlast a few stray shots and still be around for when he is needed.

Yeah, I'd gladly pay a few extra points and get:
+1WS
+1S
+1T
+1I
+1Ld
- A 3+ Save
- Krak Grenades
- A Psychic Hood
- ATSKNF
- Chapter Tactics

Not to mention the option of, you know, actual gear.

Kanluwen, maybe you should learn how Psykers work before asking for 600pts of free plasma guns on a DS unit.

Guard are getting whupped primarily due to the Maelstrom format, they are slow and don't play well to the secondary missions. Vets are easy to wipe off objectives, a massive Infantry blob is easy to tarpit, AV12 means little when you need to expose your sides to score an objective and is assaulted at AV10 anyway, and nothing else in the codex is Objective Secure.

You two don't seem very aware of anything at all except statline and S/AP values

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SDFarsight wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Squadron sizes are increased to 6 Russes.

Oh sweet summer child....there was a time when you could only take 1 Russ per HS slot...

Edit: Well I see you've been here since 2005, so just going along with the power-creep?

Power creep implies that Leman Russes are the same terrifying beast they used to be.

Now, if they fire their cannon? They get penalized firing the remainder of their arsenal.
Now, they are half the points cost of something which is two or three times as survivable because it has no Hull Points.

I dream of a time when Leman Russes blot out the sun, raining doom and gloom upon all tables!


On a more serious note? I'm of the opinion that by starting off with something blatantly ridiculous and overpowering, it can be pared down to something more manageable.
However I'm really thinking that the Scion training might be an interesting little bit to try out.

Aye but lumbering behemoth wasn't a thing back then either, or perhaps it needs lumbering behemoth now to keep up with the other codexes.

Then will fight in the shade of our railguns


Aye- floating an idea and, like you said, making something more realistic and manageable out of it. I can see why Guard could have lots of tanks since it goes with their fluff, especialy since Battle Cannons aren't the tank-killer that they used to be. But I guess you've got the Vanquisher for that.

SDFarsight wrote:


Aye- floating an idea and, like you said, making something more realistic and manageable out of it. I can see why Guard could have lots of tanks since it goes with their fluff, especialy since Battle Cannons aren't the tank-killer that they used to be. But I guess you've got the Vanquisher for that.

The problem is that the Vanquisher will struggle to kill a single Rhino over the course of an average 6 turn game. At least not without some serious assistance from other tank hunting units. The Vanquisher used to be a feared tank hunter. Now it is a joke tank.

Yoyoyo wrote:Kanluwen, maybe you should learn how Psykers work before asking for 600pts of free plasma guns on a DS unit.

Guard are getting whupped primarily due to the Maelstrom format, they are slow and don't play well to the secondary missions. Vets are easy to wipe off objectives, a massive Infantry blob is easy to tarpit, AV12 means little when you need to expose your sides to score an objective and is assaulted at AV10 anyway, and nothing else in the codex is Objective Secure.

You two don't seem very aware of anything at all except statline and S/AP values

Yes, we are suffering from a static codex in a fluid meta but that is not the only issue. Firepower - point for point we pay more for our guns than any other faction. Vehicles - our tanks are a joke. Our psykers - you joking bro?

So, wanting our so called elites whom cost as much as a Marine but are far worse all round than them to actually be useful is not much to ask, no?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yes, we are suffering from a static codex in a fluid meta

Fix this first! You can consider your Elites/Heavy Support/HQs/IC enablers after.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Maybe you guys should learn how Psykers work before asking for 600pts of free plasma guns on a DS unit.

Yeeeeeeah...I think you need to go back and reread what I posted in a follow-up discussion, Watson.

Kanluwen wrote:At this juncture? We might as well just remove Deep Strike as a special rule and tie it to purchasing the squad a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport.

So yeah. "600 points of free plasma guns"(assuming you don't purchase any special weapons on the squad)...plus in my theoretical, the points cost of a Valkyrie to make it a Deep Striking unit.

Do keep up old chap. Wouldn't want you to miss this!

Guard are getting whupped primarily due to the Maelstrom format, they are slow and don't play well to the secondary missions. Vets are easy to wipe off objectives, a massive Infantry blob is easy to tarpit, AV12 means little when you need to expose your sides to score an objective and is assaulted at AV10 anyway, and nothing else in the codex is Objective Secure.

Guard are getting "whupped" because everything in the book is absurdly overcosted for what it is and it was a copy/paste job from 5th edition.
The book is a joke, and your "insight" is rather charming.
"It's just Maelstrom where things don't work!". Hilarious.

In any regards, if you want to justify 130 points for a 10 man Scion squad? It better be dishing out an impressive amount of damage a turn--even if you're potentially losing 3 guys because of overcharging or whatever.

This next joke of yours is great though.

You two don't seem very aware of anything at all except statline and S/AP values

A C: IG Primaris Psyker with Divination is 75 points for L2.

That's what is the joke.
It's 75 points for a L2 Psyker with a Guard statline.
For 15 points more, I could ally in a level 2 Librarian with a far more impressive statline, even before any upgrades(such as an Auspex, for example, or any kind of Relics/Special Issue Wargear)

For a fifth of the cost of 3 C: IG Primaris Psykers(225 points), I could add a Librarius Conclave of 3 models which can be put into a blob squad for protection. For double the cost of those 3 Psykers, I could add a Librarius Conclave of five L2 Librarians which can be spread out into those blob squads as well.

Maintaining 12" from the other Librarians, you can have a single Librarian from the formation casting all of the Psychic Powers known by each Librarian in the Formation from the comfort of their blob squad bunkers, and harnessing Warp Charge points on a 3+ when within 12" of a single Librarian (or a 2+ if there are 2 or more Librarians from the formation within 12 inches).
And for giggles, I could make them Raven Guard Librarians and then those blob squads are then Shrouded(Shrouded is granted to units based on a single model having it; so...) for the entirety of the first turn of the game.


In any regards, I'm "aware of how Psykers work". At this juncture? I repeat this simple fact:
This book is a 5th edition book, with a new polish.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SDFarsight wrote:

Aye but lumbering behemoth wasn't a thing back then either, or perhaps it needs lumbering behemoth now to keep up with the other codexes.

Truthfully, the issue comes down to the fact that you pay so much for them compared to other options which have access to more defensive or offensive tools.

Aye- floating an idea and, like you said, making something more realistic and manageable out of it. I can see why Guard could have lots of tanks since it goes with their fluff, especialy since Battle Cannons aren't the tank-killer that they used to be. But I guess you've got the Vanquisher for that.

I wish. At this juncture, it's easier for me to just say screw it and throw meltaguns at enemy armor. The "1" of the various Ordnance/Heavy tanks kind of kills their effectiveness against anything with Hull Points barring lucky shots.

I think a bump to 2 might be in order for most of the anti-armor/monster tanks.

It appears me acknowledging you has dangerously inflated your ego....

I won't make that mistake again!

Day-um. Burn

Have an exalt^

Also, because I posted some of my other ideas in another thread.

Have different regiment tactics that they can choose from with the different ones giving benefits to every infantry model in the detachment.

Some examples of what they could be.

Regiment Tactic #1 an uber zealous regiment
Born to die- all models with this rule ignore negative modifiers to their leadership and may never be swept in combat.
Unrelenting advance- models with this rule add 1" to their move, run, and charge distances.

Regiment Tactic #2 an uber professional regiment
Trained from birth- models with this rule may reroll all to hit rolls with their weapons when firing at a target within half range.
Dead shot- if a model in this detachment with a lasgun type does not move it may opt to instead fire it with the following profile- Range18" s3 ap- Heavy 1, rending.

Regiment tactic #3 penal legion
Limitless numbers- any unit in this detachment that is destroyed is immediately replaced by an identical unit with the same upgrades and models that walks on thecontroimg players board edge.
Redeemed in death-models in this detachment may opt to be swept in combat if the controlling player decides to do so. If this is done then instead of the enemy making a normal consolidation move they must roll a scatter die and 2 d6 to see where their unit moves.

Other fixes include :
Dropping Russ prices by 20pts on most variants.
Dropping price on chimera and taurox by 10pts

+ LOTS MORE

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 natpri771 wrote:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

They NEED point reductions on alot of their vehicles. Their weapons need to pack more punch, their options for elites and fast attack need to be improved so that they aren't garbage, and their troops need to be able to move around more quickly and actually do some damage.

For me personally, I'm starting to get just a little bit ticked off at people that say the codex is fine. It straight up sucks actually, and thats a problem. A big one.

40k at this point is balanced by formations rather than costing.

You won't see that fixed until GW releases a new codex

Yoyoyo wrote:
It appears me acknowledging you has dangerously inflated your ego....

I won't make that mistake again!

Nah. I just don't like people who start out antagonistically as you had with the "wiseguy" remark. I fully understood that the rule was a bit crazy to start with, but putting it bluntly?
This book needs some crazy in it.

In any regards, apologies. I didn't see you changed your tone until after I had finished writing that up.

Something along the lines of a fix bayonet charge for platoons would be great too, even if its one use. Or perhaps give the platoon hammer of wrath if there are a fixed number of models in a blob.

50 men charging with bayonets would have some pretty hefty force behind it.

So the IG get to make 50 S3 AP- HoW auto-hit attacks?

Against SM's that's 17 wounds for an extra 5-6 kills on top of the 5-6 kills so that full-strength platoon costing 250+ points should kill an entire 150-pt Tac squad of SMs on the charge.

Awesome, that'll totally solve the IG weakness to assault.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
So the IG get to make 50 S3 AP- HoW auto-hit attacks?

Against SM's that's 17 wounds for an extra 5-6 kills on top of the 5-6 kills so that full-strength platoon costing 250+ points should kill an entire 150-pt Tac squad of SMs on the charge.

Awesome, that'll totally solve the IG weakness to assault.

Sounds right to me, if they got no other buffs. Make it a Regimental Doctrine or something.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
So the IG get to make 50 S3 AP- HoW auto-hit attacks?

Against SM's that's 17 wounds for an extra 5-6 kills on top of the 5-6 kills so that full-strength platoon costing 250+ points should kill an entire 150-pt Tac squad of SMs on the charge.

Awesome, that'll totally solve the IG weakness to assault.

Yeah this sounds fantastic actually.

Of course me playing CC blob guard has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion... surely