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Well maybe not ALL 50 guardsmen... Could be the first row or models in base contact.

Hammer of Wrath only works on models that make into base contact anyway

 Kanluwen wrote:

Makumba wrote:
How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.

Most "new players" won't be buying FW stuff.

And really, what FW units are absolutely necessary that you feel justified in NEEDING to buy recasts?

People don't play FW here so non. But from what I hear the only "good" way to play IG right now is spam artilery carrieges, with Multi CAD inq ally. But what I was thinking about is that hell tank. If it is suppose to drop to under or around 300pts and have multiple D shot weapons to make the tank good, Every IG player would have to buy at least 2. And that would suck.

The point was a "best case" scenario for the Guard blob using HoW.

I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?

Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...

I'd give Scions AP4, an extra shot, Stealth, and a price drop. There. Now you have a middling unit rather than the next Wraithknight.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?

Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...

I agree... some of these suggestions are crazy. If hellguns are gonna be this good why don't marines carry them?

I think hellguns should be R24... as it is the hellgun is one of the very few instances where the next better version of a weapon has a reduced range. Beyond that, the only other thing I consider feasible would be if a more powerful "overcharged" shot came with the "gets hot" rule, you know a "hot-shot".

Alternatively I think it'd also be interesting if "Hellguns" and "Hot-shot Lasguns" were two distinct weapon options to equip Scions... one being the better Strength, the other the better AP variant of the weapon.

Honestly, at this point the question isn't "how to fix IG", it's "do we really want GW to fix IG". Do we really want yet another example of absurd power creep where you're labeled a WAAC TFG for using half the options in the codex and the only strategy question is which overpowered formation you're going to abuse? Because that's what "fix IG" means right now. The real fix IG need, which GW is not going to do, is to nerf all of the overpowered idiocy GW has published since the 5th edition IG codex.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?

Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...

It's not too bad. Stormtroopers are a serious glass cannon unit right now, but they don't really even have a cannon. Hellguns at with four shots at STR 4 AP 3 would each kill 1.333 MEQs on average, if you can get close enough to use them, but would die quickly to pretty much any return fire. Compare that to a plasma CCS, where each plasma gunner is killing 1.111 MEQs on average. That's less, but the plasma squad has longer range, kills TEQs just as effectively as MEQs, effortlessly guns down MCs, and can even engage light/medium vehicles if you don't have any better anti-vehicle options. That hellgun buff is probably a little too much for its point cost (at least by sane balance standards, not 7th edition) but it's not that far off for a one-dimensional short range MEQ killer.

Now you have a middling unit rather than the next Wraithknight.

To be fair, with the way things are going now even if IG platoons got squads of 10-50 Wraithknights at 5 points per model it would still be a weak codex by the end of the year...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:
If hellguns are gonna be this good why don't marines carry them?

Because god said so. You know, the same reason why the Imperium does all of those other stupid things that it does.

I had been wanting S5+ Hot-Shot Lasguns over those useless S3 guns for a while. S3 is kinda worthless, whereas S5 starts to make a few things happen, and S6+ makes a lot of stuff happen.

I'd want dual-mode Hot Shot Lasguns:
- high-power 30" S7 AP3 Heavy 1 Gets Hot!
- low-power 24" S5 AP6 Rapid Fire

Against most infantry, S5 guns will do just fine. But sometimes, there's hard targets out there, and for that, you plant your feet and power the thing up to MAX...

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?

Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...

I'd give Scions AP4, an extra shot, Stealth, and a price drop. There. Now you have a middling unit rather than the next Wraithknight.

And bsck to uselessness they go. We have no need fr non ap3 stormtroopers. The whole point of the unit is to cut down marines.

Honestly, I'd rather they ditch the marine-killer aspect and lose the AP3 entirely, they're really supposed to be the elite commando and assault units of the Imperial Guard, not "power armor assassins".

Really, Skitarii Vanguard have pretty much exactly the rules I've always wanted Stormtroopers to have, if they were remade in that image, I'd be thrilled. Maybe toss out the CC radiation thing, boost their Ld to 8/9 instead of 7/8, give them WS4 and A2 or pistol/CCW in addition to their Hellgun, make them ~9-10pts, with Furious Charge, and a high-RoF "assault" weapon with an extra spin, give them Infiltrate and Deep Strike instead of Scouts, and maybe they'd be golden, and much better fitting to their fluff.

I don't see why they couldn't have both. Use something akin to the Special Operations rule they used to have where they can pick a kit at list building each with different wargear and special rules, one can be the traditional anti-MEQ set up and another can be for storming entrenched units (and maybe a third for more long range/objective camping).

Edit: Well, Special Operations was done before deployment, but that theoretically might be too powerful.

 Selym wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?

Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...

I'd give Scions AP4, an extra shot, Stealth, and a price drop. There. Now you have a middling unit rather than the next Wraithknight.

And bsck to uselessness they go. We have no need fr non ap3 stormtroopers. The whole point of the unit is to cut down marines.

It was never their point beyond a shoehorned role that is too inflexible. Rapid fire 2/3 S3 AP4 gives them comparable firepower to marines (1 less strength, but better rof and ap) and you guys constantly insist marines are fine or even OP, so what are you complaining about?

The whole 'they are not WK level so they are useless' sentiment is getting tiring. Gaunts, tacticals, shoota boys, noise marines, or kabalite warriors are not killing their points value in enemies every turn. Why should Scions?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?

Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...

I'd give Scions AP4, an extra shot, Stealth, and a price drop. There. Now you have a middling unit rather than the next Wraithknight.

And bsck to uselessness they go. We have no need fr non ap3 stormtroopers. The whole point of the unit is to cut down marines.

It was never their point beyond a shoehorned role that is too inflexible. Rapid fire 2/3 S3 AP4 gives them comparable firepower to marines (1 less strength, but better rof and ap) and you guys constantly insist marines are fine or even OP, so what are you complaining about?

The whole 'they are not WK level so they are useless' sentiment is getting tiring. Gaunts, tacticals, shoota boys, noise marines, or kabalite warriors are not killing their points value in enemies every turn. Why should Scions?

Oh for god's sake. We're not arguing that anything worse than a WK is useless. The point is that there is nothing that 5-10 guys at Str 3 Ap 4 could do that our current gakky lasgun guys do now. Even if you made them fairly costed, an ap 4 hot shot las is a rather pointless investment.

Ask yourselves this, people arguing for 4 shot S7 Ap2 hellguns: At that point they'd be stronger than scatterbikes. Don't you want a reasonable mid tier army rather than one everyone will have to turn down because they don't want a pointless exercise in removing their own models?

Ask long-time Eldar players (not FOTM ones) what they think about having a broken codex.

 Selym wrote:
Oh for god's sake. We're not arguing that anything worse than a WK is useless. The point is that there is nothing that 5-10 guys at Str 3 Ap 4 could do that our current gakky lasgun guys do now. Even if you made them fairly costed, an ap 4 hot shot las is a rather pointless investment.

They deep strike and infiltrate. They can reach things guardsmen cannot. That is important.

I remember them having some kind of doctrine system from the previous codex, as well, with pinning the first time they shoot or improved DS or the like. That is good too.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ask yourselves this, people arguing for 4 shot S7 Ap2 hellguns: At that point they'd be stronger than scatterbikes.

You mean aside from the -1T, worse save, not troops, can't move 12", can't flat-out, can't jink, can't assault-jump, worse range, and lose about half their squad to overheats every time they fire.

Yeah, so long as you ignore Gets Hot and virtually every advantage Scatterbikes have, then these would be worse.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The whole 'they are not WK level so they are useless' sentiment is getting tiring. Gaunts, tacticals, shoota boys, noise marines, or kabalite warriors are not killing their points value in enemies every turn. Why should Scions?

Because they are elites, not troops. Stormtroopers have exactly one role: kill high-value targets at close range. They don't score objectives (no obsec, small and fragile squads), they don't provide long-range support, they don't act as meatshields, and most of the time they don't even get to attack a second target before they're either dead or out of range for the rest of the game. If they aren't killing their point cost each turn for the 1-2 turns they get to shoot then why are you taking them at all?

And TBH, the way the game is right now "Wraithknight level or useless" is a pretty accurate description. It isn't fun losing games and feeling like you have no chance because your opponent's units are just plain better than yours. In the absence of a widely-accepted community "balance patch" to do GW's job for them and bring everything back to 5th edition levels (where stormtroopers would be fine with few/no changes) any unit that isn't blatantly overpowered isn't worth putting on the table. You can't balance the game based around the rare group of players that voluntarily nerfs the worst stuff and makes tactical marines have a role besides "unlock the special formation with 999999 free transports".

Ask long-time Eldar players (not FOTM ones) what they think about having a broken codex.

Which eldar codex was not FoTEdition. Because eldar dominated every edition they had a codex in and offten editions where they didn't have a new codex they dominate too. The only time when they weren't the best army was 5th, and they droped to just good tier, back then.

They deep strike and infiltrate. They can reach things guardsmen cannot. That is important.

They die from looking at them. They don't have jink or range or support psykers eldar have to make units survive. They are also elite and not a troop option that can be spamed at 4-5 man size squads.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ask yourselves this, people arguing for 4 shot S7 Ap2 hellguns:

Is anyone asking for this? It looks like you're confusing two or three different proposals, giving them more shots (possibly with a small STR boost) or giving them plasma-level stats. I agree that four-shot plasma guns would be pretty stupid, but I don't think anyone is suggesting it.

Don't you want a reasonable mid tier army rather than one everyone will have to turn down because they don't want a pointless exercise in removing their own models?

No, at this point I want the blatantly overpowered one. The mid-tier army means that I might as well not show up for tournaments or pickup games because I have no hope of winning (or even feeling like I'm playing a game instead of just setting up a pretty army display and then rolling dice to see which models I put away first) and I don't know any story-focused players around here. And the way GW is doing stuff now a mid-tier army in late 2015 is going to quickly be garbage-tier as every other codex gets their blatantly overpowered updates.

They deep strike and infiltrate. They can reach things guardsmen cannot. That is important.

They can, but not very well. With their incredibly short range and no accuracy improvement on the scatter dice deep striking is risky at best, and infiltrating usually just hands your opponent a free kill without accomplishing much. The real "reach stuff no other unit can" unit is a CCS in a Vendetta or Elysian vets in a Valkyrie, since you can hold them off the table until they're needed and deploy them with much better precision. And you'll even have better firepower with the CCS or vets, just to add insult to injury.

I remember them having some kind of doctrine system from the previous codex, as well, with pinning the first time they shoot or improved DS or the like. That is good too.

The problem with the doctrine system was that there was one obvious option (re-roll deep strike scatter) and one obvious way to use it (suicide 5-man melta). It was nice to have that option, but the other ones were just fluff, and even when it worked it was kind of underwhelming to have the elite of the elite IG be nothing more than rolling a pair of BS 4 melta shots and then putting the models back in their box. A revised version of it could be useful, but it would have to be a significant change and not just a copy/paste of the old rules.

 vipoid wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ask yourselves this, people arguing for 4 shot S7 Ap2 hellguns: At that point they'd be stronger than scatterbikes.

You mean aside from the -1T, worse save, not troops, can't move 12", can't flat-out, can't jink, can't assault-jump, worse range, and lose about half their squad to overheats every time they fire.

Yeah, so long as you ignore Gets Hot and virtually every advantage Scatterbikes have, then these would be worse.

Who cares when they DS in and delete 2x or 3x their points on turn 1? 150 pts of Scions would just drop in and kill 300 pts of Marines in one round of shooting (and Gods help you if you're a Terminator or Honour Guard).

Your enemy can't exploit your low toughness if they're tabled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:


Is anyone asking for this? It looks like you're confusing two or three different proposals, giving them more shots (possibly with a small STR boost) or giving them plasma-level stats. I agree that four-shot plasma guns would be pretty stupid, but I don't think anyone is suggesting it.

It was a serious suggestion a page or two back, yes.

No, at this point I want the blatantly overpowered one. The mid-tier army means that I might as well not show up for tournaments or pickup games because I have no hope of winning (or even feeling like I'm playing a game instead of just setting up a pretty army display and then rolling dice to see which models I put away first) and I don't know any story-focused players around here. And the way GW is doing stuff now a mid-tier army in late 2015 is going to quickly be garbage-tier as every other codex gets their blatantly overpowered updates.

Which is fair for your meta, but not everyone has it like that. In my opinion it is better to work towards the middle than the top.

They can, but not very well. With their incredibly short range and no accuracy improvement on the scatter dice deep striking is risky at best, and infiltrating usually just hands your opponent a free kill without accomplishing much. The real "reach stuff no other unit can" unit is a CCS in a Vendetta or Elysian vets in a Valkyrie, since you can hold them off the table until they're needed and deploy them with much better precision. And you'll even have better firepower with the CCS or vets, just to add insult to injury.

Internal balance is an issue, which suggests that one needs to adjust more than just Scions to make this work.

The problem with the doctrine system was that there was one obvious option (re-roll deep strike scatter) and one obvious way to use it (suicide 5-man melta). It was nice to have that option, but the other ones were just fluff, and even when it worked it was kind of underwhelming to have the elite of the elite IG be nothing more than rolling a pair of BS 4 melta shots and then putting the models back in their box. A revised version of it could be useful, but it would have to be a significant change and not just a copy/paste of the old rules.

Definitely. The principle is good though.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Who cares when they DS in and delete 2x or 3x their points on turn 1? 150 pts of Scions would just drop in and kill 300 pts of Marines in one round of shooting (and Gods help you if you're a Terminator or Honour Guard).

Yep, because most opponents just leave 300pt units in the open with no transport, cover or other defence.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Your enemy can't exploit your low toughness if they're tabled.

I guess that one unit was their entire army then.

 vipoid wrote:


Yep, because most opponents just leave 300pt units in the open with no transport, cover or other defence.

Sure, let's say they are in cover. Now they take 14 unsaved wounds instead of 21.

The squad is still just as dead.

Transports are no concern since your units are so cheap. You can have a squad blast apart their poor Rhino three times over while the next deletes the inhabitants, and in the end it will be, what, a fair trade? You still win. What won't die to massed S7 fire? Land raiders? So it's 'put your entire army in land raiders or enjoy being tabled'? That is still not balanced.

Your 150 pt squad also deletes a Wraithknight per turn, which is pretty funny in and of itself.

I guess that one unit was their entire army then.

Just like the one DSing Scion squad was the entirety of yours.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Sure, let's say they are in cover. Now they take 14 unsaved wounds instead of 21.

Yep. Good thing nothing in the game has stealth, shrouded, jink, rerollable jink etc.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Transports are no concern since your units are so cheap. You can have a squad blast apart their poor Rhino three times over while the next deletes the inhabitants.

And now you're doubling your points and using 2 elite choices, just to kill 35pts more.

Furthermore, if the Rhino/Razorback or whatever doesn't explode, then you can hide most of the squad behind it. Meaning the other 150pt unit of Scions will have no target (or will only be able to kill a couple of models). Suddenly you've sacrificed 300pts of scions to kill 70pts of Rhinos.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So it's 'put your entire army in land raiders or enjoy being tabled'? That is still not balanced.

Please quote where I said it was balanced.

 vipoid wrote:
Yep. Good thing nothing in the game has stealth, shrouded, jink, rerollable jink etc.

As far as I know, Marines have none of those.

If you are fighting Ravenwing, then sure, but Ravenwing are rather broken.

CSM doesn't have any of that.

And as I am sure Martel will appear at any second to point out, BA doesn't have any of that either.

And now you're doubling your points and using 2 elite choices, just to kill 35pts more.

Furthermore, if the Rhino/Razorback or whatever doesn't explode, then you can hide most of the squad behind it. Meaning the other 150pt unit of Scions will have no target (or will only be able to kill a couple of models). Suddenly you've sacrificed 300pts of scions to kill 70pts of Rhinos.

They're only elites if you don't play C:MT (which would instantly become the #1 codex with the S7 change). In addition, why not deepstrike down a unit behind them as well? By the turn your Scions come in from reserve, the rhino is most likely no longer camping with its rear to the table edge, and with a 24" range they can choose their targets.

Please quote where I said it was balanced.

It deletes infantry faster and cheaper than Scatterbikes ever do. You don't need resilience if there is nothing alive to shoot you back.

To rephrase: If it is 'Put your army in Land Raiders or enjoy getting tabled', then it is still beyond broken.

We've now devolved into two extremes:

-Stormies should be spehss mehreenz -1, because lol

-Stormies should be massively OP, because lol

The IG players here (Myself and probably Vipoid) don't want either.

 Ashiraya wrote:

They're only elites if you don't play C:MT.

That's true. I keep forgetting that thing even exists.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In addition, why not deepstrike down a unit behind them as well? By the turn your Scions come in from reserve, the rhino is most likely no longer camping with its rear to the table edge.

Eh? Even if it's moved forwards, that sounds like a risky deep strike for a unit with no reroll or mishap protection.

 Ashiraya wrote:

It deletes infantry faster and cheaper than Scatterbikes ever do.

But has none of their mobility, resilience etc.

Also, it might delete infantry faster, but you also lose 1/3 of your infantry every time you fire.

 Ashiraya wrote:
. You don't need resilience if there is nothing alive to shoot you back.

And you can afford to take some losses if your opponent's units kill themselves for you. In the example above, that Scion unit killed a 35pt Rhino and lost 45-60pts from its own unit.

 Ashiraya wrote:

To rephrase: If it is 'Put your army in Land Raiders or enjoy getting tabled', then it is still beyond broken.

And why is it fine for marines to pull this nonsense with deep striking Grav cannons? Which, incidentally, even a Land Raider isn't safe from.


Also, still waiting for you to quote where I said it was balanced.

I am aware you never said that, hence I rephrased to make my argument more appropriate.

And yes, grav cannons are also OP and should be nerfed, but you are at least somewhat safe if you don't have a good armour save. That won't save you against mass S7 though.

 Selym wrote:
We've now devolved into two extremes:

-Stormies should be spehss mehreenz -1, because lol

-Stormies should be massively OP, because lol

The IG players here (Myself and probably Vipoid) don't want either.

I repeat my earlier suggestion about price drop, Stealth, return and rework of doctrines, AP4, and an extra shot.

It will make them Guardsmen, except far more mobile and doing just about everything better (better armour, BS, weapon, cover saves, DS, etc.) which seems to be what Scions should be rather than anti-PA assassins who are brutal against 3+ infantry but fall flat instantly against 4+ or 2+. +1 BS and +1 shot over normal Guardsmen gives them good firepower, comparable to that of Space Marines, and in a more flexible way than just AP3 lasguns.

A great alternative for those who want a more elite army than what normal blobs or even veterans offer.

 Ashiraya wrote:

And yes, grav cannons are also OP and should be nerfed, but you are at least somewhat safe if you don't have a good armour save. That won't save you against mass S7 though.

The thing is, most things in the game these days do have good armour saves. And, when you have 5 AP2 shots with rerolls to-wound, even a 4+ save is enough to doom you. They also don't care about toughness or armour value, and can make any melee or transport vehicle worthless with a single 6.

 Ashiraya wrote:

I repeat my earlier suggestion about price drop, Stealth, return and rework of doctrines, AP4, and an extra shot.

The trouble is, that's not really fixing any of their issues. They're still a glass unit with no cannon to speak of.

In case its not clear, I do agree that an Assault 4 S7 AP2 gun is too much (even with gets hot). However, an Assault 3 S4 AP4 gun just doesn't have any useful role.

I think we do need to edge towards special weapons - maybe letting the entire squad take discounted plasma or meltas (so that we don't have Elites with ferer special weapons than our Troops ).

This is a horrible discussion. Guard firepower derives from artillery, tanks, and massed heavy weapons, not drop troops.

The whole point of a DS troop is to exploit position. They are a force multiplier, not the force.

Some people are trying to rework a finesse unit into a brute force unit. That's why they have inferior firepower and survivability. You're not supposed to brainlesssly smash them into your enemy, you're supposed to exploit assymetry.

If you have an issue, make them better at the latter -- not the former!!!

 vipoid wrote:
The trouble is, that's not really fixing any of their issues. They're still a glass unit with no cannon to speak of.

In case its not clear, I do agree that an Assault 4 S7 AP2 gun is too much (even with gets hot). However, an Assault 3 S4 AP4 gun just doesn't have any useful role.

I think we do need to edge towards special weapons - maybe letting the entire squad take discounted plasma or meltas (so that we don't have Elites with ferer special weapons than our Troops ).

Well to be fair, with Stealth, they don't really need absurd attack power. Let's say we price them at... 9 ppm? 8? 10? In that ballpark. That's much cheaper than Tactical Marines, so why should they have more firepower?

Yoyoyo wrote:
This is a horrible discussion. Guard firepower derives from artillery, tanks, and massed heavy weapons, not drop troops.

Not if you're playing a drop troop regiment.