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He could use a pointy stick, a cane, a Conscript's face... The list is endless.

Wyvern - shreds orks
Scions - soooo overpriced - took them on in 600 pts battle - killed all and took 3 SM casualties. 3!
Forward sentries doctrine - camo gear and snare mines for 10 points/squad
Demolitions doctrine - pretty niche but can kill a knight in one round since strength D does not carry over (90 points kills 375+points...)

The Forward Sentries is actually a really good Doctrine and I prefer it for most of my Veteran sections. Whilst near to useless when out in the open its strength comes when you put your troops in cover. Suddenly each of these 6 point guys has the save of a Space Marine against most weapons and whats better they do not lose their save to low AP weapons like Lascannons or Plasmaguns.
The Snare Mines really come in handy too, when your opponent launches an assault his troops do not get a bonus attack for charging, so the sudden shock of an assault is rendered useless against them.

It really makes my Veterans quite durable.

For a good laugh...

 Jancoran wrote:
THIS thread was about other factiosn getting the Tau treatment and all i'm here to testify to is that the IG dont NEED it. it would be nice. But lots of things are nice and yet not necessary. Lots.

Even better is how he's saying a 600+ 40-Guard blob is a game-winning competitive unit in the current meta.

This, after claiming how Guard are good *and* competitive in every phase of the game:

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I would just like to confirm something:

Someone said that my Guard where A) good and B) competitive in every phase.

I would like this person to come right back here and provide evidence because in my experience this is about as far from the truth as it gets.

That was me. Evidence is in the codex. Take a gander i guess?

Some of us have been more than a little skeptical.

But if he's right, well, I guess the Guard Codex doesn't need any changes at all...

Yeah, don't worry lads! Bs 3 Str 3 Ap - weapons are super OP this edition!

Let guard go 4+ armor for free, and get every 3rd vehicle for free. Screw that, let us take companies, where we get 10 chimeras for free, if we buy 10 units of veterans (600 points) with free melta and plasma guns, like the Space Marines gladius formations.

A 30% cut across the board would be about right.

I'm with hwangDD, when you compare most of our units yo those of other codices we just don't get the same amount of bang for our buck. I'm not saying to make a guard like mini marines but if they just lowered the point costs I feel like it would put us in a good place (except for the wyvern, its already in a good place).

It's not that I don't want cool new units, rules, or formations, it just that I'm afraid of what could happen.

Secretly I want to be able to match the green tide in battle of numbers heh.

The problem then becomes "can you really fit 22 tanks or 200 infantry in a deployment zone, and even if you can, can they function"?

I've posted my thoughts on what I would like to see on page 3 of this thread, but after that I came to think that cost cutting can only go so far, and with the power inflation skyrocketing in weapons, wargear, special rules, formation abilities, etc, just making guard compete on cost alone has its limits.

More and more I think the game just needs a fundamental 2E/3E style reboot, and to remember that it's a 28mm game played on 6x4' boards ideally in about a couple of hours, and that hamfisting it into Epic's scale has severe limits.

The problem is that at the current costs, a typical IG army takes two large briefcases to move to the FLGS.

5 ppm for infantry is about the right cost for cannon fodder, but our cannnon fodder is worth about 3 ppm.

My standby army-wide rule that fixes our infantry (minus killpower):

Human Ingenuity:
Humans are right bastards to remove once entrenched.
-All IG infantry gain a permanent +1 cover save, to a minimum of 6+, and a maximum of 2+.

A simple way to fix them, would also be to increase the role of the officers. Let the fleet officer have both effects -1 and +1 without rolling leadership, let the priest always succeed in his song, make the MoA get a proper orbital bombard, etc. this could change the mechanic of how they play, and without too much tinkering. The feel of the army could be that its all about the officers.

OR:
Let them get Medics for their blobs. Would make them seem cute. Let them take their banners for the blobs. Let officers join blobs.

Oh yes please, what I would not give for a proper bombardment from my MOO. Something like D3 5" S9 AP3 blasts per turn that scatter like a regular barrage.

Aside from that cut the prices of our Ogryns and Bullgryns by 50% and the rest of the Elites by 40%, make our tanks worth taking and please for the love of all that is unholy and vile give us SOME buffs, PLEASE!

Can I fit 22 tanks & 200 infantry in a DZ? Probably, if a good chunk of that infantry is mech.

However, in the current environment, I think I do better to take 12 tanks, 100 infantry, and the balance in IKTs.

 Selym wrote:
The problem is that at the current costs, a typical IG army takes two large briefcases to move to the FLGS.

5 ppm for infantry is about the right cost for cannon fodder, but our cannnon fodder is worth about 3 ppm.

My standby army-wide rule that fixes our infantry (minus killpower):

Human Ingenuity:
Humans are right bastards to remove once entrenched.
-All IG infantry gain a permanent +1 cover save, to a minimum of 6+, and a maximum of 2+.

I sort of like that, but permi-stealth everywhere might be a but much. Something like they get +1 to existing cover saves would make more sense.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The problem is that at the current costs, a typical IG army takes two large briefcases to move to the FLGS.

5 ppm for infantry is about the right cost for cannon fodder, but our cannnon fodder is worth about 3 ppm.

My standby army-wide rule that fixes our infantry (minus killpower):

Human Ingenuity:
Humans are right bastards to remove once entrenched.
-All IG infantry gain a permanent +1 cover save, to a minimum of 6+, and a maximum of 2+.

I sort of like that, but permi-stealth everywhere might be a but much. Something like they get +1 to existing cover saves would make more sense.

Eh, it gives the Guardsmen a replacement save, to slightly buff their already poor armour save. Rather than getting no saves against bolters, the get a -1 to the save. Probably through them taking the initiative to jump into cover, rather than everyone else's habit of standing in the open/charging down a corridor.

Auto Stealth is not unreasonable for IG. Not sure it actually fixes the army, but it works for me.

would I be mad in suggesting for every 3 infantry platoons you get a 4th free, including its special and heavy weapons? or for every 2 you get the 3rd free, so for one troop slot you would pay for 4 infantry platoons, a command section and get 2 infantry platoons for free, obviously paying for the chimera if you want it?

IG Infantry? You could go Buy 2, Get 1 Free and it'd be OK.

If auto-stealth is too much, then what about +1 to their cover save when Gone to Ground, in addition to the +1 that Going to Ground normally gives? This bonus cannot improve the model's cover save (after all other modifiers) to better than a 3+. The soldiers are willing to swallow their pride and hit the dirt, even if their foes are too arrogant/proud/mindless/insane to do the same.
Also, give junior officers a variant of the "Get Back To the Fight!" order. Allow them to rally units that are falling back. Humans are far more likely to give ground compared to Necrons/Maines, but they'll reform and return. It gives the attacking player the satisfaction of putting a unit to flight (nearly as nice as wiping them out) but without costing the Guard player the unit.

I see no reason to cap the cover save below a 2+. If they are hiding in very hard cover, let it be very, very tough to dig them out!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
IG Infantry? You could go Buy 2, Get 1 Free and it'd be OK.

yeah infantry platoons, you could possibly extend it to tanks, would it be too op to buy 2 leman russ and get the 3rd free, or 2 hellhounds?

what about heavy weapons teams, buy 2 get a third free, as in buy 2 full teams, get the third free, some caveat like they must all have the same weapons loadout, that would stop 2 mortor teams and a lascannon team for free.

I was also thinking about the storm troopers, str5 lasguns make a hell of a lot more sense to me that the ap3, it would also gell well with the multilaser, as lasgun str3, hellgun str5, multilaser str6, lascannon str9, it makes more sense to me.

I don't see why B2G1 wouldn't work for Russes or esp. Hellhounds. Tho I don't think the Wyvern is so bad it needs an effective discount.

It's like buying women's shoes - only the cheapest is "free". So, take Lascannon & MLs, get the HBs for "free".

I kinda like that buy 2 get 1 free idea. What about if it was like the mechanic for the HH legions, how after certain number things are half priced or something like that. Keeping abit of a point cost would atleast keep some folk from screamin "omg free stuff cheese!" Not just that since it's a established mechanic I would hope there less stuff that could go wrong in implementing.

I'm pretty sure any guard player could easily fit 200 infantry and 20 tanks in a deployment zone

14 chimeras for 10 inf squads, 2 PCS, 1 CCS, and a vet squad
2x 3 russ squadron

Thats... a HQ, three troop choices, and 2 heavy support slots, we haven't even added any elites or fast attack yet!

Can we not double the cost of viable guard armies please?

It's like buying women's shoes - only the cheapest is "free". So, take Lascannon & MLs, get the HBs for "free".

Unless US is drasticly different from rest of the world there is no heavy bolter priced type of foot wear to buy in the entire world. So maybe go with more realistic buy 3 identical and get the third one cheaper or free. Makes more sense and would stop people from buying 2 naked russes to get one pimped out one for free.

Makumba wrote:

It's like buying women's shoes - only the cheapest is "free". So, take Lascannon & MLs, get the HBs for "free".

Unless US is drasticly different from rest of the world there is no heavy bolter priced type of foot wear to buy in the entire world. So maybe go with more realistic buy 3 identical and get the third one cheaper or free. Makes more sense and would stop people from buying 2 naked russes to get one pimped out one for free.

That's exactly what I suggested in the first place

As everyone would buy 2 motor teams and have a free lascannon team.

 Formosa wrote:

Makumba wrote:

It's like buying women's shoes - only the cheapest is "free". So, take Lascannon & MLs, get the HBs for "free".

Unless US is drasticly different from rest of the world there is no heavy bolter priced type of foot wear to buy in the entire world. So maybe go with more realistic buy 3 identical and get the third one cheaper or free. Makes more sense and would stop people from buying 2 naked russes to get one pimped out one for free.

That's exactly what I suggested in the first place

As everyone would buy 2 motor teams and have a free lascannon team.

Still Wouldn't be op this edition, though.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't see why B2G1 wouldn't work for Russes or esp. Hellhounds. Tho I don't think the Wyvern is so bad it needs an effective discount.

It's like buying women's shoes - only the cheapest is "free". So, take Lascannon & MLs, get the HBs for "free".

Honestly? It wouldn't work because then you just got a bunch of vehicles.

7th edition is NOT friendly to non-Skimmer/Flyer vehicles. Making the Guard's tanks "free" isn't a fix, it's just shoveling more of them on the field.

There's so much to fix with Guard though that picking one particular thing is difficult. I just can't see any kind of situation where I would be excited to field more tanks. They're not bad, but for what Leman Russes are now? They're way overpriced and even their specialized variants have large issues.

• Commisar Yarick is a Lord of War.
• Basilisk: 85 points
• Leman russ eradicator: 145 points
• Leman russ vanquisher: 145 points
• Hellhound: 90 points
• Devildog: 85 points
• Banewolf: 95 points
• Chimera, Taurox and Taurox Primes may be selected as fast attack choices.
• When a conscript unit is removed as a casualty, an identical unit goes into ongoing reserve on a 4+.
• The taurox prime has the command vehicle trait
• Rough riders have an additional wound each
• Vox casters give the following benefit: if a command squad and the target of an order it is issuing are both equipped with vox casters, add 12 inches to the maximum command range and the units do not require line of sight
• Tempestas scion units have one higher leadership

Militarum Tempestas
• Any unit embarked in a flyer chosen from this detachment, and any units placed in deep strike reserves may begin arriving from reserves starting in turn one. They must be rolled for normally.
• Gain all the relevant bonuses listed above
• Baneblade: 485 points
• Banehammer: 348 points
• Banesword: 420 points
• Doomhammer: 395 points
• Hellhammer:530 points
• Shadowsword: 365
• Stormlord: 470
• Stormsword: 475

Missile launchers all have the flakk missiles, all characters (not independent characters) gain an additional wound (max of 3)
After this, some cool fluffy formations should put them in a good place to be.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
• Commisar Yarick is a Lord of War.

I'd much rather he wasn't, to be honest.