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I love stormies,but they are in such a bad spot right now its frustrating.I agree with Vaktathi,there is no reason they should be pigeonholed to an anti-Meq role.My take on them would be something like:

WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T3 W 1 I 4 A 1 LD 8/9 Gear:Carapace Armor,Hot Shot Lasgun,Hot Shot Laspistol,CCW (sergeant),Frag&Krak grenades SRs: Deep strike,Stubborn,Move through Cover,Special Operations,Shock and Awe

Shock and Awe:Grants Furious charge.In addition,when declaring a charge,but before the targeted unit fires its Overwatch,each Storm trooper of the charging unit can use one of their grenades against the targeted unit,provided their targets are within the range of said grenade.
Special Operations: Pick one of the following before Deployment:

A)Airborne Assault:Re-roll the scatter dice when they Deep Strike and can Run after Shooting or Shoot after Running
B)Reconnaissance:Infiltrate,Scout,Stealth
C)Assault Grenadiers:Each Storm trooper is equipped with Blind and Stun grenades that can be used only when the equipped unit declares a charge.When using Blind grenades,the targeted unit must make an Initiative test.If it passes it,nothing happens.If it fails it,the WS and BS of all models in this unit are reduced to1 for one turn.When using Stun grenades,the targeted unit must make a Toughness test.If it passes it,nothing happens.If it fails it,the Initiative of all models in this unit is reduced to 1 for one turn.Each additional Blind and Stun grenade confer a minus -1 penalty to the rolls of their respective test,to a maximum of -9.


Hot Shot Lasgun: 18", S 4 AP - , Assault 3, Pinning
Hot Shot Laspistol: 9", S 4 AP - , Assault 1
Blind Grenade:6", S 1 AP - , Assault 1,Blast
Stun Grenade:6", S 1 AP - ,Assault 1,Blast

Options: All storm troopers can take a CCW (1 ppm).
Up to two storm troopers can replace their HS Lasgun with an option from the Special weapons list,and an addition storm trooper can do so provided the ST squad has the maximum amount of STs in it.
Up to one storm trooper can take a vox or a med pack.
The storm trooper sergeant can replace his CCW and/or HS Laspistol with options from the Melee weapons list,Plasma Pistol,Bolt Pistol or Boltgun.


My terrible english aside,this is a mix of 5th ed codex storm troopers with what i feel they should be,an elite unit that specializes in short ranged,behind enemy lines engagements while also having some punch in melee combat as long as it isnt charging targets that are dedicated melee units.They also get alot more options and flexibility than now,where if you actually decide to take them they are basically a melta suicide squad;not a very elite thing if you ask me

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I would take S5 or S6 over AP3 every time. The ability for Stomies to hunt MCs is gold.

Tbh I've never view them as units that should really be hurting MC. Imo opinion they should simply be better at killing infantry, not larger targets.

In that case, no changes are required, and the unit remains completely obsolete compared with ordinary Guardsmen available as Troops. And that's not even looking at cheaper Veteran Squad Troop choice that can take a 3rd Special and any Heavy weapon.

However, if Storms are to be generally useful, then a bump to S5+ would be required. Merely giving them Bolters doesn't address how terrible they are.

The basic Tau Fire Warrior is a better value, for pity's sake. Let's not be afraid to have Storms be at least as good as the basic Tau Troops choice, OK?

NO MANDATORY CCWS ON SERGEANTS!

For ANY Guard units.

No mandatory CCWs on Veteran Sergeants in Infantry Squads, no CCWs on Scion Tempestors, and no CCWs on Veteran Sergeants in Veteran Squads.

Why is it such a bad thing for Guard Sergeants to be able to be like Space Marines, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Skitarii Vanguard or Skitarii Rangers and have the same weapon as their squad members do?

And for the love of raptor Jesus, no. Absolutely NO CCW/Pistol options for Scion squads. They're not gunslingers. Nothing in the Guard list should ever be able to have an entire unit of CCW/Pistols.

You want to put a Sergeant with a pistol/ccw? Make it an upgrade option. I'd gladly reverse the crap I had to do last book change with pulling apart Sergeants and removing their rifle arms and adding CCW/Pistols to give them back their rifles.

 Kanluwen wrote:


And for the love of raptor Jesus, no. Absolutely NO CCW/Pistol options for Scion squads. They're not gunslingers. Nothing in the Guard list should ever be able to have an entire unit of CCW/Pistols.

Why? They're commando assault troops, they had the equipment in the 5E codex, if you move past just the AP3 and look at what the unit's background role is and what role it can play without duplicating that of Vets within the army, having the rifle/pistol/ccw isn't unreasonable.

You want to put a Sergeant with a pistol/ccw? Make it an upgrade option. I'd gladly reverse the crap I had to do last book change with pulling apart Sergeants and removing their rifle arms and adding CCW/Pistols to give them back their rifles.

And for all the people with already built pistol/CCW sergeants? why can't it just be an "and/or" option?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


And for the love of raptor Jesus, no. Absolutely NO CCW/Pistol options for Scion squads. They're not gunslingers. Nothing in the Guard list should ever be able to have an entire unit of CCW/Pistols.

Why? They're commando assault troops, they had the equipment in the 5E codex, if you move past just the AP3 and look at what the unit's background role is and what role it can play without duplicating that of Vets within the army, having the rifle/pistol/ccw isn't unreasonable.

Because he's not talking about them having the equipment like the previous books had.

Read the suggestion he made. He wants Stormtroopers to pay points for a CCW. No. Absolutely not.

And realistically, it's high time that there became rules where "Assault" ranged weapons can actually be used in CC.

You want to put a Sergeant with a pistol/ccw? Make it an upgrade option. I'd gladly reverse the crap I had to do last book change with pulling apart Sergeants and removing their rifle arms and adding CCW/Pistols to give them back their rifles.

And for all the people with already built pistol/CCW sergeants? why can't it just be an "and/or" option?

"A Sergeant with a Lasgun can replace it with a Pistol/CCW at no points cost" is still technically considered an upgrade option.

I would love to give my Sergeants Lasguns. Well, I give them Bolters because they are a steal but the option would be nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A simple fix for Stormies is to just give them more Special Weapons slots. Like, let them take 4 plasma guns per squad and drop their cost to like 9ppm. Maybe give them the ability to reroll ones to hit too if you want them at their current price point.

I don't see why Sergeants woudln't be LP&CCW or some variant thereof.

And I've said repeatedly that Conscripts should have a LP&CCW option with a max size of 20 models. Thematically, that makes sense, as they're crappy shots but still fight as a mob.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


And for the love of raptor Jesus, no. Absolutely NO CCW/Pistol options for Scion squads. They're not gunslingers. Nothing in the Guard list should ever be able to have an entire unit of CCW/Pistols.

Why? They're commando assault troops, they had the equipment in the 5E codex, if you move past just the AP3 and look at what the unit's background role is and what role it can play without duplicating that of Vets within the army, having the rifle/pistol/ccw isn't unreasonable.

Because he's not talking about them having the equipment like the previous books had.

Read the suggestion he made. He wants Stormtroopers to pay points for a CCW. No. Absolutely not.

Ah ok, sorry missed that

And realistically, it's high time that there became rules where "Assault" ranged weapons can actually be used in CC.

Might be a fair point, though that's a whole nother can of worms

"A Sergeant with a Lasgun can replace it with a Pistol/CCW at no points cost" is still technically considered an upgrade option.

Hrm, ok I can buy that.

I just play my Sargent's as though they have Lasguns. Solves the issue really.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Who cares when they DS in and delete 2x or 3x their points on turn 1? 150 pts of Scions would just drop in and kill 300 pts of Marines in one round of shooting (and Gods help you if you're a Terminator or Honour Guard).

Small correction: 300 points or the maximum value of the target unit. C:SM with 5-man combat squads, for example, limit the amount of damage even these hypothetical stormtroopers can do because the overkill wounds are just wasted. And honestly, if the unit can't significantly out-kill its point cost in the one, maybe two, turns that it gets to shoot then why are you taking it? Stormtroopers are a single-role unit with no purpose besides killing stuff. If your X-point stormtrooper squad can't trade with X+Y points of enemy models then it's never going to be a part of even a semi-competitive army.

Which is fair for your meta, but not everyone has it like that. In my opinion it is better to work towards the middle than the top.

The problem is that GW doesn't share your "work towards the middle" design philosophy. They aren't just aiming to put new codices at the top, they're trying to see how much they can beat the last codex by. If you aim for mid-tier with a new codex right now it's quickly going to become garbage-tier as every other army gets blatantly overpowered updates. The only meta where it will stay mid-tier is one where everyone ignores GW's new rules and imposes their own balance changes, in which case it doesn't matter if stormtroopers as-printed are overpowered for your meta because you can just re-balance them yourself.

Now, do I wish that we didn't have a situation where "power creep" is only a bad description of GW's design policy because "creep" is supposed to be subtle? Sure. But that's not the reality of 7th edition 40k, and balancing IG for a 5th edition design concept that no longer exists means printing a garbage-tier codex.

'nuther thread here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/665960.page

Its already got someone from the "IG are OP" bandwagon, and atm its only on page 1...

 Selym wrote:
'nuther thread here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/665960.page

Its already got someone from the "IG are OP" bandwagon, and atm its only on page 1...

Before I click over, I'm trying to guess what would prompt that claim. As I peer into my crystal ball, I'm thinking foot CSM player, no Daemons allies?

Crons player. 8,000 point army.

I would still like a veteran driver option.

Veteran Driver: +1 BS
+5 points (chimera/taurox), can only be taken if selected as dedicated transport for Veteran squads or CCS
+10 points (sentinels)
+15 points (Leman Russ)

I would just like to see that. Plus a formation where the IG can get free chimeras.

 Selym wrote:
Crons player. 8,000 point army.

WTF? I could understand if he had problems with Eldar, because Eldar have some seriously good stuff to neutralize the problem 'Cron units if they know they're hunting 'Crons. But Guard? Decurion can't handle Guard? Just how n00b is he?

 Kanluwen wrote:
NO MANDATORY CCWS ON SERGEANTS!

For ANY Guard units.

No mandatory CCWs on Veteran Sergeants in Infantry Squads, no CCWs on Scion Tempestors, and no CCWs on Veteran Sergeants in Veteran Squads.

Why is it such a bad thing for Guard Sergeants to be able to be like Space Marines, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Skitarii Vanguard or Skitarii Rangers and have the same weapon as their squad members do?

And for the love of raptor Jesus, no. Absolutely NO CCW/Pistol options for Scion squads. They're not gunslingers. Nothing in the Guard list should ever be able to have an entire unit of CCW/Pistols.

You want to put a Sergeant with a pistol/ccw? Make it an upgrade option. I'd gladly reverse the crap I had to do last book change with pulling apart Sergeants and removing their rifle arms and adding CCW/Pistols to give them back their rifles.

What about the options for regiments of Feral World Guardsmen?

Sure assault IG are pretty poop in general, typically being heavily outclassed by just about everything better than a Grot or Fire Warrior, but why can't we at least have the option for things like a regiment of the Kanak Skulltakers, or some bad@$$ Penal Legion?!
Hell, giving the likes of Scions and/or Veterans the ability to take things like Shotguns and/or pistol + ccw is also a pretty viable way to unofficially allow for Adeptus Arbites themed forces, much in the same way that a 'Sternguard-only' formation finally allows for proper Deathwatch forces.

 martin74 wrote:
I would still like a veteran driver option.

Veteran Driver: +1 BS
+5 points (chimera/taurox), can only be taken if selected as dedicated transport for Veteran squads or CCS
+10 points (sentinels)
+15 points (Leman Russ)

I would just like to see that. Plus a formation where the IG can get free chimeras.

Sentinels I'd probably actually make it the cheapest on, they've got the fewest number of weapons and the lowest number of hull points and potentially worst armor, you'd get less use out of it there than you could on another platform.

Experiment 626 wrote:

What about the options for regiments of Feral World Guardsmen?

Serious question: Who plays "Feral World Guardsmen"?

Sure assault IG are pretty poop in general, typically being heavily outclassed by just about everything better than a Grot or Fire Warrior, but why can't we at least have the option for things like a regiment of the Kanak Skulltakers, or some bad@$$ Penal Legion?!

I can't speak for you, but I'd like a codex that isn't garbage and full of garbage "options" that are really nothing but filler to pad the page count.

Hell, giving the likes of Scions and/or Veterans the ability to take things like Shotguns and/or pistol + ccw is also a pretty viable way to unofficially allow for Adeptus Arbites themed forces, much in the same way that a 'Sternguard-only' formation finally allows for proper Deathwatch forces.

Er yeah. The formation you're talking about isn't "Sternguard only". It's "Veteran Squads only"(Terminator squads of both flavors, Vanguard Squads, and Sternguard Squads).

And really, if you think that pistols+CCWs and shotguns are somehow relating to Adeptus Arbites you might as well say that Bullgryn "unofficially allow for Adeptus Arbites themed forces" because they have Slabshields or Mauls and Bucklers.

 Kanluwen wrote:
NO MANDATORY CCWS ON SERGEANTS!

For ANY Guard units.

No mandatory CCWs on Veteran Sergeants in Infantry Squads, no CCWs on Scion Tempestors, and no CCWs on Veteran Sergeants in Veteran Squads.

Why is it such a bad thing for Guard Sergeants to be able to be like Space Marines, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Skitarii Vanguard or Skitarii Rangers and have the same weapon as their squad members do?

And for the love of raptor Jesus, no. Absolutely NO CCW/Pistol options for Scion squads. They're not gunslingers. Nothing in the Guard list should ever be able to have an entire unit of CCW/Pistols.

You want to put a Sergeant with a pistol/ccw? Make it an upgrade option. I'd gladly reverse the crap I had to do last book change with pulling apart Sergeants and removing their rifle arms and adding CCW/Pistols to give them back their rifles.

Sure,i agree with you that there is no reason that our officers and sergeants MUST have CCW&Pistols and if they HAVE to start with them,an option to swap to a rifle version of them would be great.In fact,i wrote this while toying with my Kasrkin with which,you know,giving the sergeant something other than his pistol and sword involves drills and lots of sweating and swearing or a lazy patch job.
As for the CCW option for the regular storm troopers and them having to pay 1 ppm for CCWs,why not?Tacticals have to do so;CSM have to do so;other units which i cant think of right now have to do so;why should an elite commando unit that has superior gear compared to regular joes and will often find itself in melee combat not have the option to buy a CCW much like other elite (in the general sense) units?They wont become cowboys just because they get the option to carry a pistol and a knife.

 Kanluwen wrote:
NO MANDATORY CCWS ON SERGEANTS!

For ANY Guard units.

No mandatory CCWs on Veteran Sergeants in Infantry Squads, no CCWs on Scion Tempestors, and no CCWs on Veteran Sergeants in Veteran Squads.

Why is it such a bad thing for Guard Sergeants to be able to be like Space Marines, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Skitarii Vanguard or Skitarii Rangers and have the same weapon as their squad members do?

And for the love of raptor Jesus, no. Absolutely NO CCW/Pistol options for Scion squads. They're not gunslingers. Nothing in the Guard list should ever be able to have an entire unit of CCW/Pistols.

You want to put a Sergeant with a pistol/ccw? Make it an upgrade option. I'd gladly reverse the crap I had to do last book change with pulling apart Sergeants and removing their rifle arms and adding CCW/Pistols to give them back their rifles.

Ugh. This again. I'm not going to derail the thread here, but I just want to point out that I am completely unequivocally against the idea that Guard can't have CC squads. This comes down to you trying to force your idea of the faction into what you want it to be, and it really would take away from the feel of the way I play my Guard. We've already had this discussion at length regarding Rough Riders, and I'm not trying to bait a response. This is just me pointing out for anyone reading-but-not-posting the thread that not everyone agrees with this sentiment.

It just comes down to the idea that this game should really NEVER eliminate options "just because".

 Kanluwen wrote:
I can't speak for you, but I'd like a codex that isn't garbage and full of garbage "options" that are really nothing but filler to pad the page count.

What does how many options the codex includes have to do with how powerful the codex is? Having options that you personally don't want to use doesn't make the codex worse, and taking those options away from the people who want to use them (however common those people might be) does nothing to make it a better codex for you.

I say keep the CC options but for feths sake give us alternatives. Lasguns on offices, rather than this crappy CCW + Pistol loadout.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I say keep the CC options but for feths sake give us alternatives. Lasguns on offices, rather than this crappy CCW + Pistol loadout.

I kinda like giving officers swords, it has a ww1 feel to it. But, yes. They need the options to take proper guns.

In the Grim Darkness of the far future, promotions make you forget your training.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Serious question: Who plays "Feral World Guardsmen"?

Well, I for one would love to add a Feral World regiment to my Chaos & Radical Inquisitor forces.

I know it won't be hyper competitive at all, but feth it. Why can't I have a bunch of head-chopping savages loaded with power axes & flamers, supported by Roughriders & Sentinels, while being led by crazy as gak Priests and small squads of tribal shamans (psyker squads)?
Meanwhile at the back of the battle lines, is a ruthless Radical Inquisitor standing at the ready with his trusty Deathstrike missile to make sure to hide all the evidence of any potential wrong-doing!

 Kanluwen wrote:
I can't speak for you, but I'd like a codex that isn't garbage and full of garbage "options" that are really nothing but filler to pad the page count.

I highly doubt that a couple of lines here or there allowing the likes of Veterans and/or Infantry Platoons to swap out their lasguns for pistol/ccw is going to leave the entire codex as a pile of unplayable bullgak.

If you don't like an option, then don't make use of it. I personally hate plasma guns in any MEQ army because mine *always* explode and kill my Marines. That doesn't mean though that I'm going to go out and crusade to have plasma guns removed entirely from the codex, simply because I despise the things and think they're a terrible option.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Er yeah. The formation you're talking about isn't "Sternguard only". It's "Veteran Squads only"(Terminator squads of both flavors, Vanguard Squads, and Sternguard Squads).

Semantics. For Deathwatch fans, they've got what they've been waiting with baited breath for - a formation that let's them take nothing but Sternguard, thereby allowing for fully fledged Deathwatch armies. (minus the obvious PE: Xeno rule...)

 Kanluwen wrote:
And really, if you think that pistols+CCWs and shotguns are somehow relating to Adeptus Arbites you might as well say that Bullgryn "unofficially allow for Adeptus Arbites themed forces" because they have Slabshields or Mauls and Bucklers.

Shotguns + Carapace armour = basic Adeptus Arbites gear.
Pistol/CCW + Carapace armour = Adeptus Arbites 'riot squad' stand-ins.

You can always get the slab shields by taking an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor and tooling up a Henchmen squad with Crusaders. Not perfect, but still close'ish enough and similar to how Marine players will treat 'Sternguard = Deathwatch'.

I think the idea of the guard needs to be reiterated again both within the context of this thread and the codex.

The guard is comprised of every imaginable possible combination of culture, tactics, equipment and training. If you want to run a horde army for the guard you should be able to make that horde army in the way that you want. If I want to make a feral world regiment I should be able to equip the men with close combat weaponry. Hell that regiment might even have special animals on its homeworld and might ride them into battle (sabre tooth tigers, maybe even woolly mammoths). If I want to run a conscript regiment I should be able to send those guys into the front lines in massive waves.

If I want to run a light infantry regiment that relies primarily on the skill of its soldiers and the element of surprise then I should be able to viably play them. If I want to run a Prussian or Napoleonic era regiment I should have slower firing, more inaccurate, less mobile, and more damaging infantry weapons.

It ultimately comes down to allowing the guard to viably represent everything that it is capable of. A guardsman from a feral world is going to fight vastly differently than a guardsman from cadia, just as a guardsman from elysia is going to fight differently than a guardsman from catachan. The standard platoons we have now only represent a very small portion of the varying qualities and tactics that different guardsmen use.

Ideally these differences would be best represented with different unit profiles, weapons, etc. I personally run all veterans for my troops because they are the closest to how my regiment operates. They perform their tasks ineffectively because the book never intended for them to be used in an ambush anti infantry role.

What I am saying, is that guardsmen platoons, veterans, etc, are semi viable depending on what role you want to use them for. Right now platoons are primarily useful for bubble wrapping, and veterans for chimera special weapons delivery when they should be able to do so much more.

At last the whole Conscripts with CC weapons thing. I would love to have this option. Replace laser gun for two CC weapons or X amount of points for two handed weapon. The whole juxtaposition of high tech and medieval fantasy is why I love 40K
This used to be an option in the 4th ed codex if I remember right. It was an army doctrine or something.

This plus the buffs to Rough Riders and Death strikes other people have already mentioned.

Cheers Vim

I'd use Catachan models for conscripts if melee conscripts were allowed.

Stick a priest in there and they would make a fun screening unit.

Sergeants *must* have the CCW/pistol because that's what the Departmento Munitorum issues them. It's also because the sword is used as a pointing device, and the pistol fits in his/her other hand.

While the unit is in cover, the Sergeant uses the chainsword to point at the target objective, whether that's a hill, a ruin, an enemy unit, a vehicle... whatever. It's a multi-functional command device.

Couldn't the sergeant just point with his finger?

Or even his lasgun?

Hell, he could just *fire* his lasgun at the target - it's basically just a laser-pointer anyway.