Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Selym wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The units need a power buff, not a cost reduction, in general. I don't want to have to bring 50% more stuff every game, just because GW can't write for gak...

There's only so much you can fit on a table / in a carrier box...

If I want to bring uber elite T3 models, I have a zillion points of Eldars for that. And even then, their best models are T8, not T3. If Guard are not the shooty horde to contrast the the Orky fighty horde, then nobody fills that role in 40k, which would make no sense. Guard need to be cheaper for sure; if some of the cheapness is offset with more (better) shootiness, I'd be OK with that. And definitely, Guard need some kind of trick that offsets their crappy Sv5+, like, I dunno, Cameoline for everybody?

I can carry the vast bulk of my IG in a 2' duffel bag: 200 Guardsmen, 9 Chimera / Russ, and 2 Baneblades. I could fit my remaining dozen vehicles & Leviathan Crusader in a 2nd bag, no problem. Thing is, that's way more than any regular IG game would be. Heck, it's probably enough for 3x 2,250-pt games. Even if the IG points got cut in half across the board (won't happen), I think I could deploy 2,000 new pts (4,000 current points) in a 6 SF DZ, assuming, that I have Vehicles and/or Reserves.

Heck kinda bag are you using?

And 5 ppm is already about as low as the standard IG trooper needs to be. You can have a shooty horde at that ppm cost, but the IG need a straight up power boost.

It's a standard 2 CUFT rectangular duffel bag. My metal infantry are packed into Chessex hardcases, ~100 per box. The tanks are in a custom case. That leaves the top open for a couple Baneblade-sized Tanks in bubblewrap. It's a very dense transport to be sure, but it's good.

While 5 ppm is "low", GW charges way too much for weapon upgrades, esp Plasma Guns and Missile Launchers. That makes the unit rather expensive for what it does on the tabletop. That's why you take Veterans instead of Guardsmen. OTOH, if the Platoon weapons were "free" as part of the 5 pts, then we'd be having rough parity between Guardsmen & Veterans.

And it's not like you'd be running naked Guardsmen around. They'd just die doing nothing.

The troops can be left alone, the cheap commissars and priest mean they will never run, I would like to see the tanks become more survivable/able to shoot its sponsons again. Giving squads ability to blob up say after getting out of chimeras, the ogryns need a points decrease they are make terminators look points efficient, bring back doctrines for storm troopers, they don't need all the special rules that make them so costly, or keep the points the same and give hell guns either 24" or s4. I play scions a lot, 10 points off the Taurox or a point of amour on the side, access to the vendetta. Give valks an armoubane missile not ordnance that's just a joke. The chimera needs extra amour on the side for the points, its twice the cost of a rhino. A rending order would be sweet for lasguns similar to scions. Points for heavy weapons are to expensive on a t3 model with bs 3 hence never seen. The order for split fire should allow all heavy weapons in the platoon to fire at a different target not just a single weapon. Allowing special weapon squads to be incorporated into the platoon. Hellhounds reduced in cost, offset by giving them -1 to the damage chart just my 2 cents, its still pretty powerful, the steel host is awesome!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
2 CUFT rectangular duffel bag.

I have no idea what that is

Give Chimera +1 Side Armour. It's a fething IFV! Not just stupid Rhino.

 Selym wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
2 CUFT rectangular duffel bag.

I have no idea what that is

2 CUbic FeeT - roughly 24" x 12" x 12" interior.


Oh yeah, I agree with Chimeras going from 12/10/10 to 12/11/10. So they can be basically useful.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

While 5 ppm is "low", GW charges way too much for weapon upgrades, esp Plasma Guns and Missile Launchers. That makes the unit rather expensive for what it does on the tabletop. That's why you take Veterans instead of Guardsmen. OTOH, if the Platoon weapons were "free" as part of the 5 pts, then we'd be having rough parity between Guardsmen & Veterans.

Honestly? All of the weapon upgrades(melee AND ranged/special/heavy weapons) need to be changed, ASAP. They're cut & pasted from the Space Marine book for whatever reason.

Guard aren't Space Marines and should not be priced the same for their upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Oh yeah, I agree with Chimeras going from 12/10/10 to 12/11/10. So they can be basically useful.

Give all Guard vehicles the Armoured Track Guards and Anti-Grenade Mesh from Imperial Armour.
A 5+ save against any damage inflicted by any type of grenades, including Melta Bombs and a 4+ save against Immobilised results on the Vehicle Damage table.

Give them the option for Artificer Hulls granting an additional Hull Point(to a maximum of 5).

While I don't think the basic guardsmen and vets need to get any cheaper ppm, I definitely agree that the pricing of IG upgrades is ridiculous. WS3/BS3 and WS4/BS4 units paying the same amount of points for upgrades is totally ridiculous.

With the exception of flamers, every weapon upgrade that the IG and SM share should go down 5 points minimum for the Guard.

Sounds about right. Combine it with +1 cover, and possibly improved orders, the IG is back in action, baby!

I disagree with dropping the points for weapon upgrades on guardsmen. Who qields the weapon doesn't affect the maximum damage potential of the weapon. The model is still going to be cheaper than a marine with the same weapon because the base is lower.

Your gun platform is already cheaper, adding additional cost cuts aren't the answer.

haven't read the 59 pages so dunno fi someone brough this up.

Commissars could use a 4+ armor save for 25pts...

Be fun to be able to kit out conscripts a bit, maybe some special doctrines for them?

Maybe even standard guardsman could use some doctrines. That would certainly bring some variety for them. Obviously i'm talking about doctrines different then veteran ones.

Conscripts are supposed to be untrained civilians who've had a lasgun shoved into their hands, and then been told to "go that way".

3 ppm...

Maybe get this upgrade:

>One Conscript my be upgraded to a Drill Sergeant

The DS then does stuff. Buff stuff.

 Selym wrote:
Conscripts are supposed to be untrained civilians who've had a lasgun shoved into their hands, and then been told to "go that way".

3 ppm...

Maybe get this upgrade:

>One Conscript my be upgraded to a Drill Sergeant

The DS then does stuff. Buff stuff.

True that but I won't see the point of said drill sargeant since we can already slap a priest with them.

 drunken0elf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Conscripts are supposed to be untrained civilians who've had a lasgun shoved into their hands, and then been told to "go that way".

3 ppm...

Maybe get this upgrade:

>One Conscript my be upgraded to a Drill Sergeant

The DS then does stuff. Buff stuff.

True that but I won't see the point of said drill sargeant since we can already slap a priest with them.

Maybe so you don't have to throw a priest in with them? It would make sense for there to be an experienced leader with the conscripts, at least to keep them somewhat on track.

I'm not hot on the priest - that seems more an Ecclesiarchy Frateris Militia thing that doesn't belong in C:IG at all.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
So we're basically doing Frag / Krak?

I'd make the secondary mode much more marginal.

Battlecannon
- 72" S8 AP3 5" Blast Ordnance (HE)
- 72" S9 AP2 Ordnance (AP)

Vanquisher Battlecannon
- 96" S8 AP2 Ordnance Armorbane Fleshbane (AP)
- 96" S7 AP4 3" Blast (HE)

Vanquisher Tank - Vanquisher Battlecannon is Twin-linked due to Co-ax Autocannon

Why would you make the Vanquisher AP fleshbane? How rounds work IRL an AP round would simply shoot through a creature without tumbling, there is a reason the US reduced their round size during/after Korea. Also on average the vanquisher will glance AV14..... I think seeing how dedicate titan killer round is it should be represented slightly better. The Vanquisher should be a serious threat to armour, more than it is atm imo.

I would say give the basic LR some ability with it's battlecannon to really hurt multiple would, high T units, such as some of the high wound nids.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
So we're basically doing Frag / Krak?

I'd make the secondary mode much more marginal.

Battlecannon
- 72" S8 AP3 5" Blast Ordnance (HE)
- 72" S9 AP2 Ordnance (AP)

Vanquisher Battlecannon
- 96" S8 AP2 Ordnance Armorbane Fleshbane (AP)
- 96" S7 AP4 3" Blast (HE)

Vanquisher Tank - Vanquisher Battlecannon is Twin-linked due to Co-ax Autocannon

Why would you make the Vanquisher AP fleshbane? How rounds work IRL an AP round would simply shoot through a creature without tumbling, there is a reason the US reduced their round size during/after Korea. Also on average the vanquisher will glance AV14..... I think seeing how dedicate titan killer round is it should be represented slightly better. The Vanquisher should be a serious threat to armour, more than it is atm imo.

I would say give the basic LR some ability with it's battlecannon to really hurt multiple would, high T units, such as some of the high wound nids.

The point of making it Fleshbane is so that it can do the job it is meant to do:
Hunt monsters.

The Vanquisher should punch a nice neat hole directly through the target - that's Fleshbane right there.

Armorbane means the Vanquisher, on average, penetrates AV14 with a 15. That's pretty good. And I made it twin-linked with extra range.

So, I was rereading some of my old Guard novels(Cadian Blood and Gunheads get reread at least once a year) and had a thought.

Vanquisher, Battle Cannon, and Demolisher Cannons get the following special rule:
Gunnery Crews--
At the start of each turn, you have to pick a 'fire mode' for the gun.
Precision Fire--Fires at BS4 and fires a single shot, which rolls 1D6 for Scatter instead of the usual 2D6. Any tank firing Precision Fire cannot move this turn.

Fire and Move--Tank fires at its normal BS with a single shot which Scatters normally.

Rapid Fire--Tank fires at BS1 with two shots that Scatter normally. Leadership/Morale tests on units that suffer casualties from a tank that Rapid Fired this turn do so at a -2 penalty.

Additionally, for all Leman Russ variants the Gunnery Crews rule means they can fire Ordnance without Snap Shooting their Sponson weapons.

I've been reading the thread (I'm at page 52) but I was wondering how big a problem space for your troops is. Let's say that the points cost were lowered for squads and tanks alike so you better could get the feeling of huge numbers of infantry and tanks, would the size of the 4' x 6' be against you?

If yes, what do you think of the idea of getting some squads (maybe also tanks) to arrive later (turn 3 or 4) and also that these unit were cheaper as they'd spend less turns on the table?

I've been looking at solar auxilia russ's and they have some cool stuff, such as if all the Russ shoot at the same target, +1 Bs, or if you don't shoot once per game they may move as if a fast vehicle, that and the av13/12/10 artillery lol

 Kanluwen wrote:
So, I was rereading some of my old Guard novels(Cadian Blood and Gunheads get reread at least once a year) and had a thought.

Vanquisher, Battle Cannon, and Demolisher Cannons get the following special rule:
Gunnery Crews--
At the start of each turn, you have to pick a 'fire mode' for the gun.
Precision Fire--Fires at BS4 and fires a single shot, which rolls 1D6 for Scatter instead of the usual 2D6. Any tank firing Precision Fire cannot move this turn.

Fire and Move--Tank fires at its normal BS with a single shot which Scatters normally.

Rapid Fire--Tank fires at BS1 with two shots that Scatter normally. Leadership/Morale tests on units that suffer casualties from a tank that Rapid Fired this turn do so at a -2 penalty.

Additionally, for all Leman Russ variants the Gunnery Crews rule means they can fire Ordnance without Snap Shooting their Sponson weapons.

Looks like an interesting idea.

In any case, getting Lumbering Behemoth back, or at least something similar, seems mandatory. The ability to overwatch with secondary weapon systems (pintle and hull mounted weapons, perhaps sponsons too?) would also help, although that one should perhaps be applied to all vehicles.

 Korinov wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So, I was rereading some of my old Guard novels(Cadian Blood and Gunheads get reread at least once a year) and had a thought.

Vanquisher, Battle Cannon, and Demolisher Cannons get the following special rule:
Gunnery Crews--
At the start of each turn, you have to pick a 'fire mode' for the gun.
Precision Fire--Fires at BS4 and fires a single shot, which rolls 1D6 for Scatter instead of the usual 2D6. Any tank firing Precision Fire cannot move this turn.

Fire and Move--Tank fires at its normal BS with a single shot which Scatters normally.

Rapid Fire--Tank fires at BS1 with two shots that Scatter normally. Leadership/Morale tests on units that suffer casualties from a tank that Rapid Fired this turn do so at a -2 penalty.

Additionally, for all Leman Russ variants the Gunnery Crews rule means they can fire Ordnance without Snap Shooting their Sponson weapons.

Looks like an interesting idea.

In any case, getting Lumbering Behemoth back, or at least something similar, seems mandatory. The ability to overwatch with secondary weapon systems (pintle and hull mounted weapons, perhaps sponsons too?) would also help, although that one should perhaps be applied to all vehicles.

Boom, throw that in with the Gunnery Crews rule.

I would disagree with everyone else getting it. Automated systems and the like aren't the same as sponsons with an actual crew member inside.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So, I was rereading some of my old Guard novels(Cadian Blood and Gunheads get reread at least once a year) and had a thought.

Vanquisher, Battle Cannon, and Demolisher Cannons get the following special rule:
Gunnery Crews--
At the start of each turn, you have to pick a 'fire mode' for the gun.
Precision Fire--Fires at BS4 and fires a single shot, which rolls 1D6 for Scatter instead of the usual 2D6. Any tank firing Precision Fire cannot move this turn.

Fire and Move--Tank fires at its normal BS with a single shot which Scatters normally.

Rapid Fire--Tank fires at BS1 with two shots that Scatter normally. Leadership/Morale tests on units that suffer casualties from a tank that Rapid Fired this turn do so at a -2 penalty.

Additionally, for all Leman Russ variants the Gunnery Crews rule means they can fire Ordnance without Snap Shooting their Sponson weapons.

I actually really like this idea. Gives you some nice options for the tanks.

 War Kitten wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So, I was rereading some of my old Guard novels(Cadian Blood and Gunheads get reread at least once a year) and had a thought.

Vanquisher, Battle Cannon, and Demolisher Cannons get the following special rule:
Gunnery Crews--
At the start of each turn, you have to pick a 'fire mode' for the gun.
Precision Fire--Fires at BS4 and fires a single shot, which rolls 1D6 for Scatter instead of the usual 2D6. Any tank firing Precision Fire cannot move this turn.

Fire and Move--Tank fires at its normal BS with a single shot which Scatters normally.

Rapid Fire--Tank fires at BS1 with two shots that Scatter normally. Leadership/Morale tests on units that suffer casualties from a tank that Rapid Fired this turn do so at a -2 penalty.

Additionally, for all Leman Russ variants the Gunnery Crews rule means they can fire Ordnance without Snap Shooting their Sponson weapons.

I actually really like this idea. Gives you some nice options for the tanks.

Agreed

Chaospling wrote:
I've been reading the thread (I'm at page 52) but I was wondering how big a problem space for your troops is. Let's say that the points cost were lowered for squads and tanks alike so you better could get the feeling of huge numbers of infantry and tanks, would the size of the 4' x 6' be against you?

If yes, what do you think of the idea of getting some squads (maybe also tanks) to arrive later (turn 3 or 4) and also that these unit were cheaper as they'd spend less turns on the table?

I think it's doable, but then I prefer 1500, not 2000, on my 4x6 boards...

I had previously suggested BOGO formations, whereby the first unit must start on the table, and the "free" unit must start in Reserves, which is basically codifying what you wrote.

The problem with the Guard is not our numbers, its our power level. I can already flood the board with several hundred Infantry and a few tanks in an average game but the problem is that these will A) die rapidly and B) usually fail to do anything. Sure, I have a hell of a lot of shots but at S3 AP- they struggle to take down most things in the current game. Yes I have hundred of bodies, but each of these is T3 and has a 5+ save, they die to just about every weapon out there and they die in droves.
Its the same with the tanks. Marine players see a Leman Russ and go "OMG AP3 pieplate instakillz ma dudes on AV14 for 150 iz OP broken cheeze!!!111!!!!!111" but in fact the Russ is really lacklustre. The pieplate often scatters miles and can be negated by spreading your troops out or using cover (a concept I know most SM players struggle with but it is there) whilst the vehicle can be outrun by basic Infantry (6" move and cannot boost) but at the same time its secondary weapons automatically snapshoot if the main gun fires.

So, TLDR numbers are not the iissue, Guard armies are big enough as it is. The problem lies in the pathetic powerlevel we are forced to cope with.

10 wounds on a ML and Plasmagun aren't bad - if those weapon upgrades are reasonably priced. And they are not.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The point of making it Fleshbane is so that it can do the job it is meant to do:
Hunt monsters.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The Vanquisher should punch a nice neat hole directly through the target - that's Fleshbane right there.

I've never understood this, why should what is designed and designated as a purely Anti-Tank and Anti-Titan vehicle be used against MC's? It's designed to kill armour, at best it should really be given a small blast radius battlecannon shell with maybe S7 as standard (aka not an upgrade like beasthunter).

It's akin to using an AP round vs a soft target. As per real life, the tank with higher HE potential should be better vs MC's. Punching a hole through something quite often does not cause as much damage as something that either explodes or tumbles and gets stuck inside the target. I know GW doesn't work on logic (aka battle tank rounds would cause massive damage to a tank or MC's it penetrates), but even then I feel the only real reason the Vanquisher gets the beast hunter is because they want it to be a "kill all target" vehicle which it shouldn't be.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Armorbane means the Vanquisher, on average, penetrates AV14 with a 15. That's pretty good. And I made it twin-linked with extra range.

Sorry I put down completely the wrong issue, lol. Was tired last night when I posted it.

My main problem with the vanquisher is it's AP2, really it should be AP1 to fulfil it's role. It should be knocking out titans (with enough shots) and vehicles fairly easily. The AP2 still means unless you roll a 6 that vehicle is still going to be there. Personally I would make the Vaquisher AP1, causes loss of two HP and a extremely nerfed BC round.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The problem with the Guard is not our numbers, its our power level. I can already flood the board with several hundred Infantry and a few tanks in an average game but the problem is that these will A) die rapidly and B) usually fail to do anything. Sure, I have a hell of a lot of shots but at S3 AP- they struggle to take down most things in the current game. Yes I have hundred of bodies, but each of these is T3 and has a 5+ save, they die to just about every weapon out there and they die in droves.
Its the same with the tanks. Marine players see a Leman Russ and go "OMG AP3 pieplate instakillz ma dudes on AV14 for 150 iz OP broken cheeze!!!111!!!!!111" but in fact the Russ is really lacklustre. The pieplate often scatters miles and can be negated by spreading your troops out or using cover (a concept I know most SM players struggle with but it is there) whilst the vehicle can be outrun by basic Infantry (6" move and cannot boost) but at the same time its secondary weapons automatically snapshoot if the main gun fires.

So, TLDR numbers are not the iissue, Guard armies are big enough as it is. The problem lies in the pathetic powerlevel we are forced to cope with.

i agree with most of your post, but not the underlined part. Against anything S3 or S4 it's a non issue, I quite constantly wipe squads using FRFSRF with units that are much cheaper using just lasguns. T5 can be an issue, but not impossible. The issue arises mostly with T5-7 models seeing you cannot get enough fire onto them without relying on vehicles. Those units should really be either targeted with said vehicles or heavy weapon squads. Heavy weapon squads imo are A) Too expensive B) Too squishy and C) Crippled by their BS3, especially for single shot weapons such as lascannons.

Most MCs that we see on the tabletop are armored, so that Anti-Tank round should punch through, not knock over.

AP1 is just no enough though. Not for THE tankhunter of 40K. Give it a massive boost on the damage chart - +4 at least - so that it can KO a tank in one hit.

The reason that it works against MC's is because an MC is not a soft target. An MC is a massive feth off monster with a thick hide or chitin plates. It is essentially a walking tank. Or in the case of the Tau/Eldar dickery a Walker masquerading as an MC/GMC for the buff. It is essentially a walking hard target, hence why AP shells should butcher them. Besides, if an AP shell hits something the sheer impact of a high velocity larger calibre slug is going to do masses of damae anyway. Ever seen a .50 round hit someone? Now scale that up to a 75mm or 105mm shell.