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Eh, still, they are almost useless as they are.

Yeah, Ratlings aren't really worth it are they? 10 PPM for a BS4 sniper shot on a toughness 2 platform.

Dont forget the 5+ armour save - that makes all the difference!

Ah yes, the wet toilet paper save, only mildly better than the ork t-shirt save.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's going to do exactly the same amount and type of damage shooting a Tau Crisis/Broadside/Riptide/whatever suit in the chest as it would be shooting a Sentinel's cockpit or a Dreadnought's stupidly heavily armored sarcophagus. The pilot for the Crisis suit is in the chest and it's not like they're somehow treated against explosives.

Not really, think about it. Sentinal cockpit gets hit, spalling etc hurts the target, now MC's are generally bigger. Concerning the riptide only 1/4 of the entire main trunk of the suit is the cockpit. Not only that but that compartment is also seperated from the rest of the vehicle. Including Limbs, it's only around 1/8th to 1/10th of it's mass, compared to a sentinel that it's about 1/2 the mass and the dreadnought that is around 1/3-1/4 (ignoring it's also acts as life support). Comparing it to a leman russ make it even worse, pretty much anywhere the russ is penetrated will result in shrapnel filling the fighting compartment, harming the crew and potentially causing ammo to ignite. Most MC's have enclose fighting compartments, akin to a real life fighter, of which many will survive being hit by ridiculous amounts of rounds that have not hit something critical or the pilot directly.

By your logic, a single hit on the Riptide should shred the pilot into hamburger.

It's actually one of the main bonuses to having separate fighting compartments IRL.

Have you ever looked at any of the cutaways of modern tanks versus the Leman Russ?

In the end, Crisis Suits got labeled the way they were because of rules concerns when they were first introduced. When they came out, vehicles were actually powerful and thus an army which could take a huge amount of Walkers was seen as potentially overpowered by the design team.

Well aren't normal crisis suits simply infantry? Main reason being the suit mimics the users movements much better and more enhances the pilot akin to terminator and centurion armour?

No. They're a pilot with a neural linkage inside of the middle--just like a Dreadnought or a Knight or any class of Titan.

What do Sniper weapons do?
Aim for vulnerable points on their targets(represented by the roll of a "6" to Wound being AP2; the sniper round found an extremely vulnerable point in the armor/protection of their target). Nothing about simply becoming a GMC removes that. Limbs are still vulnerable points, you just can't make a killshot. You can't do that to a GMC anyways.

You'd have a case for Poisoned Weapons, seeing as how a GMC is so large that it would take longer for poisons to affect them--but if that's the case, then MCs should be given the same thing since they're so much bigger than your "average"

Snipers to creatures those size would be like using a 9mm to take on a tank.... sure you can fit a scope to it and aim for the rear armour, but it will not do anything. It may be a weak point, but if your weapon isn't big enough it's not going to do anything.

Sniper weapons aren't weak. They're really not. I will never understand why they have the AP they do.

Maybe it's time Precision Shots does something more than just allowing you to choose who you allocate Wounds to, but it's a precision instrument. A sniper isn't aiming for legs or arms, they're going for killshots whenever possible. Even on a GMC they're going to be hitting some kind of weak spot.

To use your analogy, it would be like if you were to use a 9mm to take on a tank...when the tank commander left the hatch open and you're able to get elevation to see inside.

Okay, and?
It's Ratlings. They need something to finally justify their points.

Haha they're only 30 points..... they're actually one of the only decent elite options, especially if you run a bar minimum squad or two.

That's like comparing one turd to another, because the Elite options in AM are distinctively lackluster.

GMC point costs need to be elevated upwards, significantly, or vehicles need to be elevated upwards beyond MCs/GMCs to justify the bloated points cost that most vehicles pay.

In all honesty I do agree, I think MC's are very underpriced. How much is it for a riptide? 180 points + upgrades... I think it's around 240points for a fully upgraded one, that's only slightly more than a pask vehicle... which arguably is not 'quite' as good

180 points plus upgrades for a 2+ save, the ability to get a boosted Invulnerable save and FNP with high Toughness.

And it can claim Cover relatively easily along with firing their weapons with no real penalties.

Wooo, vehicles!

One thing I would like to see is some love for shotguns.

Even tho assault 2 is quite nice, I don't see the S3 AP- nice at all, all the while concidering the firing platform of said shotgun is T3 and most likely 4+ save.

I find shotguns need some sort of tweaking or at the least a choice of ammo to fire. The typical buckshot and slug and even more various ammo could be a interesting option.

What about the tau shotguns? I think they are fluffy but not op, but I've never seen them played

Tanks can take autocannons free where ever they they have heavy bolters, or at least on sposoons.

War Kitten wrote:Yeah, Ratlings aren't really worth it are they? 10 PPM for a BS4 sniper shot on a toughness 2 platform.

Well my main argument being anyone who wastes a turn shooting a 30 point unit and in efefct waste a units shooting should have their brain checked.

A 30 point ratling unit is actually a perfect target saturation unit.... that can still be a annoyance.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
By your logic, a single hit on the Riptide should shred the pilot into hamburger.

How? Would result in less damage to the pilot and the entire vehicle, should get an idea to how spalling and damage works in combat....

Have you ever looked at any of the cutaways of modern tanks versus the Leman Russ?

Yeah looking at the leman russ cutaway right in front of me, russes actually have vastly much larger compartments.

No. They're a pilot with a neural linkage inside of the middle--just like a Dreadnought or a Knight or any class of Titan.

Neural link is irrelevant.... fighting compartment size in comparison to the vehicle size was more of an issue. Plus volatile parts of the vehicle. Titans are a completely different topic however.

Sniper weapons aren't weak. They're really not. I will never understand why they have the AP they do.

Maybe it's time Precision Shots does something more than just allowing you to choose who you allocate Wounds to, but it's a precision instrument. A sniper isn't aiming for legs or arms, they're going for killshots whenever possible. Even on a GMC they're going to be hitting some kind of weak spot.

To use your analogy, it would be like if you were to use a 9mm to take on a tank...when the tank commander left the hatch open and you're able to get elevation to see inside.

Right... you know MC's and GMC 's don't need hatches thus the commander logic does not work? Stop trying to compare a vehicle that logistically and intrinsically works nothing like a normal vehicle. Again the best comparison is an upsized terminator armour in how they work, but with more agility.

That's like comparing one turd to another, because the Elite options in AM are distinctively lackluster.

To an extent I agree, but even scions have their usage as suicide squads. Now I admit their usage does not match their intended usage and they need improvement, but ratlings are great in their minimum 30 point units.

180 points plus upgrades for a 2+ save, the ability to get a boosted Invulnerable save and FNP with high Toughness.

And it can claim Cover relatively easily along with firing their weapons with no real penalties.

Wooo, vehicles!

Well again I agree with you point wise, cover point? Well how is it easier to get a 25% obscurement on a large walker than it is a tank using the same scenery?

As I said earlier, I think the main problem with MC's and GMC's is A) Their wound count and B) Their point cost, not them actually being MC's or GMC's.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
By your logic, a single hit on the Riptide should shred the pilot into hamburger.

How? Would result in less damage to the pilot and the entire vehicle, should get an idea to how spalling and damage works in combat....

I have an idea as to how spalling and damage work, thankyouverymuch. The point is that if you're going to argue that Glancing/Penetrating Hits or whatever are representing "spalling", then why is there nothing similar for MCs? A Riptide has the pilot in the center of the suit, surrounded by layers of armor plating. Spalling can still happen from ceramic armor--and a Tau pilot "linked" to the suit is going to be just as vulnerable to being shredded by debris as a guy sitting in the cockpit of a Sentinel.

Have you ever looked at any of the cutaways of modern tanks versus the Leman Russ?

Yeah looking at the leman russ cutaway right in front of me, russes actually have vastly much larger compartments.

Yup. And it's worth mentioning that crew aren't just wearing fatigues either, they're usually wearing Flak gear.

No. They're a pilot with a neural linkage inside of the middle--just like a Dreadnought or a Knight or any class of Titan.

Neural link is irrelevant.... fighting compartment size in comparison to the vehicle size was more of an issue. Plus volatile parts of the vehicle. Titans are a completely different topic however.

Actually the neural link is relevant. Riptides had issues during testing where their pilots were being killed by neural feedback.

Sniper weapons aren't weak. They're really not. I will never understand why they have the AP they do.

Maybe it's time Precision Shots does something more than just allowing you to choose who you allocate Wounds to, but it's a precision instrument. A sniper isn't aiming for legs or arms, they're going for killshots whenever possible. Even on a GMC they're going to be hitting some kind of weak spot.

To use your analogy, it would be like if you were to use a 9mm to take on a tank...when the tank commander left the hatch open and you're able to get elevation to see inside.

Right... you know MC's and GMC 's don't need hatches thus the commander logic does not work?

You understand what a "weak spot" is, right?

Eyes/sensor suites/power supplies/whatever are "weak spots".

Stop trying to compare a vehicle that logistically and intrinsically works nothing like a normal vehicle. Again the best comparison is an upsized terminator armour in how they work, but with more agility.

Look at the Stormsurge or Riptide and tell me that's "upsized Terminator Armour in how they work".

That's like comparing one turd to another, because the Elite options in AM are distinctively lackluster.

To an extent I agree, but even scions have their usage as suicide squads. Now I admit their usage does not match their intended usage and they need improvement, but ratlings are great in their minimum 30 point units.

Your definition of "great" must be wildly different to mine.

Well what they will almost certainly do is create some formation of formations with benefits.

Something like

Core -- some benefit involving orders

Artillery formation -- all Basilisks and whatnot get Shred or Pinning or Ignores Cover or something

Leman Rus/Baneblade formation -- if all tanks shoot at same target, get Tank/Monster Hunter (just like Tau)

Commando formation with Veterans and Ratlings -- all units get Infiltrate and Stealth, Ratlings get Shrouded

something like that

Likely Formation:

Infantry Company:

[Selection of Veterans, Platoons, CCS and Transports]

Bonus: 1x Free unit of Ogryns

30 points for 3 bods whom will be removed as soon as the enemy so much as farts in their general direction and whom will struggle to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn? No thankyou, that is not good by any stretch of the imagination.

Y'know, I've had a bit more thinking time and come up with the following:

--Only in Death Does Duty End: Any model with this special rule counts as being T4 for the purposes of resolving Shooting Attacks or Psychic Powers which behave as Shooting Attacks.


--Combat Elements: A unit with this special rule can split its members into smaller groups, with a minimum of 3 models per group and a maximum of 5 models per group. These groups count as their own units for all intents and purposes but do not award Victory Points unless the whole unit is destroyed.

Put those two rules on any actual Guard models(read: not Ogryns/Ratlings/Rough Riders) and you get some interesting effects.

 master of ordinance wrote:
30 points for 3 bods whom will be removed as soon as the enemy so much as farts in their general direction and whom will struggle to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn? No thankyou, that is not good by any stretch of the imagination.

It wasn't a suggestion, it was an idea of the bs well likely get.

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
30 points for 3 bods whom will be removed as soon as the enemy so much as farts in their general direction and whom will struggle to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn? No thankyou, that is not good by any stretch of the imagination.

It wasn't a suggestion, it was an idea of the bs well likely get.

Ugh, very true. With all the whining that SM players do every time they lose so much as a single model to IG shooting our prices are likely to skyrocket whilst our units are nerfed yet again.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
30 points for 3 bods whom will be removed as soon as the enemy so much as farts in their general direction and whom will struggle to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn? No thankyou, that is not good by any stretch of the imagination.

It wasn't a suggestion, it was an idea of the bs well likely get.

Ugh, very true. With all the whining that SM players do every time they lose so much as a single model to IG shooting our prices are likely to skyrocket whilst our units are nerfed yet again.

Seriously, who is doing that? Marine player who has played against Tau or Eldar should not be complaining about IG. So you're telling me that marine players are actively complaining about IG? Or are you just using a massive hyperbole here?

As a Marine player I'm mildly irritated by his comment. I bet it's just that the people he plays with that play Marines complain about it, so he assumes that all of us are like that.

I'm more than mildly irritated, frankly. I'm still civil with Eldar players who table me in 3-4 turns and Nid players bringing pentaflyrant. I've had turns where I've lost 40+ marines due to a confluence of events. But somehow the concern here is IG firepower? And I'm being painted as concerned about losing a few extra marines to a theoretically buffed IG list?

And this is after I have repeated showed how BA are likely an inferior list to IG. If the base marine was worth a thing, this wouldn't be true.

Sorry, most of the Marine players whom I have run in to in my time have been younger members of the community.
That, and I have a built up cynicism against the SM forces.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Sorry, most of the Marine players whom I have run in to in my time have been younger members of the community.
That, and I have a built up cynicism against the SM forces.

I've said repeatedly in this thread to not generalize SM players.

How would you like it if someone started posting about "how Guard players are all whiners who need to learn to play"?
If you want to make a point about players you have in your local meta(which is kind of silly, unless they actively post here they won't know they're doing something that annoys someone else), then make a point of establishing that you're discussing someone in your local play group.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
30 points for 3 bods whom will be removed as soon as the enemy so much as farts in their general direction and whom will struggle to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn? No thankyou, that is not good by any stretch of the imagination.

It wasn't a suggestion, it was an idea of the bs well likely get.

Ugh, very true. With all the whining that SM players do every time they lose so much as a single model to IG shooting our prices are likely to skyrocket whilst our units are nerfed yet again.

Seriously, who is doing that? Marine player who has played against Tau or Eldar should not be complaining about IG. So you're telling me that marine players are actively complaining about IG? Or are you just using a massive hyperbole here?

I know 3 Ultramarine players IRL. They all complain like donkey-caves. I also know one BA player, who did the same in 5E, 6E as well as now. I know another guy who playes a homebrew chapter, who still complaint like an asshat. These are people from two very different gaming groups. It's very much a thing.

Yet they are a very small part of a larger group of players. They may complain a lot, but that doesn't mean the rest of us do.

I complain all the time.
Mostly about my girlfriend, since she would never watch us play this game.
I also play marines and eldar

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
30 points for 3 bods whom will be removed as soon as the enemy so much as farts in their general direction and whom will struggle to kill 2 Guardsmen a turn? No thankyou, that is not good by any stretch of the imagination.

It wasn't a suggestion, it was an idea of the bs well likely get.

Ugh, very true. With all the whining that SM players do every time they lose so much as a single model to IG shooting our prices are likely to skyrocket whilst our units are nerfed yet again.

Seriously, who is doing that? Marine player who has played against Tau or Eldar should not be complaining about IG. So you're telling me that marine players are actively complaining about IG? Or are you just using a massive hyperbole here?

I know 3 Ultramarine players IRL. They all complain like donkey-caves. I also know one BA player, who did the same in 5E, 6E as well as now. I know another guy who playes a homebrew chapter, who still complaint like an asshat. These are people from two very different gaming groups. It's very much a thing.

Glad (and sad) to see that I am not the only one whom experiences this.

I get that everyone complains. I live in the UK, we exist to complain. But the SM players I come across usually have a habit of looking at CSM and IG codexes, and pointing out that they think that those two codexes are in some way OP compared to C:SM, simply due to having a specialized something, or due to having something that is designed specifically to hurt MEQ's. They then go on to be totally fine with everything else. These are also players who often win, but when they lose to either of these codexes, it's because that codex has an "unfair advantage". It's a very strange phenomenon, possibly caused by them taking BL fluff to heart too much, where Boltguns > humans > CSM at every turn.

 Selym wrote:
I get that everyone complains. I live in the UK, we exist to complain. But the SM players I come across usually have a habit of looking at CSM and IG codexes, and pointing out that they think that those two codexes are in some way OP compared to C:SM, simply due to having a specialized something, or due to having something that is designed specifically to hurt MEQ's. They then go on to be totally fine with everything else. These are also players who often win, but when they lose to either of these codexes, it's because that codex has an "unfair advantage". It's a very strange phenomenon, possibly caused by them taking BL fluff to heart too much, where Boltguns > humans > CSM at every turn.

Fair enough. I just ask that you realize that not all of us Marine players are donkey caves.

Can I maintain that all Ultramarines are asshats?

No you cannot

People need to understand something here. Space Marines are a very strong codex, but you need to take very specific builds and units to unlock that strength. Note that very few of these units are actually meqs. If little Timmy is just throwing out a bunch of tac squads, a devastator squad, and a couple of crappy marine tanks, then his implementation of SM is indeed inferior to many CSM or IG lists.

A huge part of this is just how terrible tactical squads are at killing, well, pretty much anything. Defensively, they are efficient, but that's no longer relevant in deathhammer 40K. I understand that guardsmen are a sweet spot for the bolter, but that one fact does not make the tactical marine good. They are still a terrible, terrible troop.