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 Sledgehammer wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
@Sledgehammer:

Could you explain further how a, or maybe just yours, light infantry regiment takes on the enemy? Or at least how it should.

Long Range Penetration
and Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols

These concepts are best exemplified by the Chindits Merril's Marauders The Long Range Desert Group, and the grueling combat patrols that soldiers often went on in Vietnam (see platoon).

Ground support is supplied via sentinels as they can easily, and stealthily, traverse terrain that conventional vehicles cannot. Small buggies and troop transports are supplied to the force for logistical reasons, and can also provide tactical mobility (although their inclusion is rare). I will in the future be making an armored car that will hopefully look like a Cadillac Gage with a 120mm cannon.

Tanks, APC's, and vehicles larger and/or heavier than the armored car that I just mentioned (which itself will suffer due to the terrain it is tasked to operate in) will have trouble maneuvering at all. To supplement the lack of armor, the group is often in contact with multiple artillery fire bases, and forward airfields.

The infantry engage only when it best suits them, using the terrain to mask their operations and strength of force.

Okay, well how does that translate into game terms, I'm all for fluff based armies (I run one myself) but I seems far from practical when it set on the board. Sentinels and Tauroxes (armored cars?) And even guardsmen rely on cover, but with the prevalence cover ignoring weapons that notion flies right out the window. Artillery and air support that you describe isn't a possible thing atm except by the MoO, so your forced to bring models on the field to represent these normally unassailable assets. Lastly masking operation and strength if force isn't possible either due to the nature of the game, I'd say the closest you might get is deep striking scions?

I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, but the concept of your army run into the same issues that mine does there's jus no way to represent it. So how do you think it could be well represented within the confines of a new IG dex?

All of my infantry are trained to operate within a vast expanse of forested terrain. They excel in infiltration, reconnaissance, precision assaults, and search and destroy. Their lack of large vehicles is what allows them to remain hidden and mobile in an otherwise treacherous environment.

The infantry all come equipped with camo cloaks standard (they are modeled on all of my infantry)

Moves through cover is universally granted, in order to represent their ability to remain mobile in dense terrain.


I have a troop choice called a veteran assault squad. It has the exact same stats as a veteran squad, but has the infiltrate special rule. In addition they are equipped with shredder lasguns that are 18inc range assault 3. Instead of being able to equip 3 special weapons they are limited to two.
I have changed the vox caster to instead change the order range to infinite. This squad allows me to outflank enemy positions and actually take out enemy infantry with guardsman. At 120 points base i quite like this unit.


Sentinels are there to provide on site fire support via their plasma cannons and lascannons.

Dedicated transports are generally not going to be used within combat, as the troop transports attached to them are too lightly armored to be safely utilized under fire. Valkyries are a dedicated transport, but generally I still feel like they are too overpriced to be effective.

Fast ground buggies like the tauros (NOT THE TAUROX), or something like this are there to attack an enemy position, and leave before the enemy can react.

Long range artillery is currently only represented via the master of the ordinance, but I am mulling over adding in spotters to fill in the heavy support slot. In the future I will eventually add a heavy mortar for closer support.

An armored car like the cadilliac gage will be there to take out enemy vehicles stupid enough to enter into terrain that they are unsuited for.


Then there is the airsupport which can be used to clear the sky, or ground of any opposition.

No pictures?

Make the average guard better. So you do not need 170 of them for a 1k game. Right now maze well give them all wreches because all Ig bring are tanks.

Why would anybody ever take 170 IG in a 1k game? They would have basically no upgrades, upgrades which are all hugely overcosted.

If the heavy & special were bundled, and the upgrades were cheaper, that would be an effective upgrade in unit lethality.

HEY!

You mock, but I've tried the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. That many Lasguns? It actually gave someone pause, when fired en masse with FRSRF!

Oh my God Emperor, the thought of that many shots..... truly awe-inspiring as a Guard player

 Kanluwen wrote:
HEY!
You mock, but I've tried the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. That many Lasguns? It actually gave someone pause, when fired en masse with FRSRF!

and? was the formation worth its "points"

 vostroyan second born wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
HEY!
You mock, but I've tried the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. That many Lasguns? It actually gave someone pause, when fired en masse with FRSRF!

and? was the formation worth its "points"

Well...

I testfired it against my brother's Tyranids.
Before I could resolve any other weapons, the Lasguns alone had wiped out a Carnifex brood.

@Sledgehammer:

Very well explained, thank you; very thematic pictures as well. I understand where you're coming from with this, but in the game I'm creating, I want much attention to overall strategy and constant tactical decisions but if much of your damage output comes from off-map artillery and such, then I think much is lost as relatively few light infantry won't do much damage on their own and thus are reduced to spotters. Maybe I got it wrong but imagine a balanced Chaos or Tyranid force going against your light infantry - should light vehicles and light infantry be able to do that much damage to advancing heavy forces like Terminators, Land Raiders, several monstrous creatures or the like on their own? Or do you mostly need artillery and flyers for that?

Chaospling wrote:
@Sledgehammer:

Very well explained, thank you; very thematic pictures as well. I understand where you're coming from with this, but in the game I'm creating, I want much attention to overall strategy and constant tactical decisions but if much of your damage output comes from off-map artillery and such, then I think much is lost as relatively few light infantry won't do much damage on their own and thus are reduced to spotters. Maybe I got it wrong but imagine a balanced Chaos or Tyranid force going against your light infantry - should light vehicles and light infantry be able to do that much damage to advancing heavy forces like Terminators, Land Raiders, several monstrous creatures or the like on their own? Or do you mostly need artillery and flyers for that?

Well giving us F/O officers and tanks would be a massive boost, especially if we used the old IA rules for the bombardments. You purchase your F/O unit who comes with one Earthshaker blast per turn and can then purchase multiple other blasts for him:
3 Mortar shells @15 points
4 Quad Mortar shells @20 points
2 Griffon shells @40 points
2 Medusa shells @55 points
1 Earthshaker shell @ 60 points
1 Bombard shell @70 points
1 Bombard< shell @100 points
etc

Each turn the F/O can call in his barrages. Unless he has LOS to the target the scatter is not reduced but if he does have LOS then the scatter is reduced by his BS.

I don't understand why we don't just make MOO a Sentinel Squadron upgrade?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
HEY!
You mock, but I've tried the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. That many Lasguns? It actually gave someone pause, when fired en masse with FRSRF!

and? was the formation worth its "points"

Well...

I testfired it against my brother's Tyranids.
Before I could resolve any other weapons, the Lasguns alone had wiped out a Carnifex brood.

Anecdotal, but... Okay. That is fine,

I hope master of ordinance is finally satisfied now...

I might have to pick up the new campaign book then. I only have 50 Guardsmen at the moment (yes I know it's heresy), but I can build up to that. Plus the artillery formation sounds intriguing.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't understand why we don't just make MOO a Sentinel Squadron upgrade?

IG should have more things like that. The main distinction between IG and Space Marines, as an IG player if your army were wiped out the high command has 1000 more armies identical to yours ready to sweep in and deal with any surviving threats. Every time a Marine player loses that'd be a catastrophic loss to a Chapter. To the same degree that Marine's ability to be where ever they need to be is represented with drop pods, the sheer size of the IG and the army's ability to rely on off table but near-by assets such as artillery should be represented.

Or, simply moving any destroyed Troops into Reserves to be recycled again and again, representing nearby reinforcements.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
HEY!
You mock, but I've tried the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. That many Lasguns? It actually gave someone pause, when fired en masse with FRSRF!

and? was the formation worth its "points"

Well...

I testfired it against my brother's Tyranids.
Before I could resolve any other weapons, the Lasguns alone had wiped out a Carnifex brood.

Anecdotal, but... Okay. That is fine,

I hope master of ordinance is finally satisfied now...

Well here is what you would do on average with an Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. 3 lots of 5 Infantry Squads equals 135 Lasguns (since the Sergeants only have Laspistols), with another 12 Lasguns from the 3 Platoon Command Squads, for a total of 294 Lasgun shots with FRFSRF at 24".

16.33 dead Space Marines
27.22 dead Ork Boyz, assuming no cover saves but with the FNP from a Painboy.
2 dead Carnifexes in a Brood (8.17 unsaved wounds)
4 dead Canoptek Wraiths (8.17 unsaved wounds, assuming no Resurrection Protocols)
5.44 Unsaved Wounds on a Stormsurge

If you could somehow manage to get it all alive into Rapid Fire range (441 lasgun shots!), you would do the following:

24.5 dead Space Marines
40.83 dead Ork Boyz, assuming no cover saves but with the FNP from a Painboy.
3 dead Carnifexes in a Brood (12.25 unsaved wounds)
6 dead Canoptek Wraiths (12.25 unsaved wounds, assuming no Resurrection Protocols)
1 dead Stormsurge (8.17 unsaved Wounds)

... for 1,000+ points.

OTOH, for the same points, one could also take a Warhound or Revenant Titan. I know which one I'd want.

Yeah, compare that to a lot of options and it doesn't seem very strong...

The worst part about the ESIP is, That when I emailed GW about the ESIP in the web store their response was "Oh! ,your right!" at which point I got slightly excited only to read "Thanks for letting us know, we've changed the description on the website! Nice catch!"

Truly I was saddened. I know it was a long shot it had hoped It would get a FAQ out of them.. but...

Well, I tried..

The solution is to simply use the older Apoc ESIC, which simply requires 3 Platoons (of any composition), no Sentinels, for better bonuses...

 GoonBandito wrote:

Well here is what you would do on average with an Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. 3 lots of 5 Infantry Squads equals 135 Lasguns (since the Sergeants only have Laspistols), with another 12 Lasguns from the 3 Platoon Command Squads, for a total of 294 Lasgun shots with FRFSRF at 24".

16.33 dead Space Marines
27.22 dead Ork Boyz, assuming no cover saves but with the FNP from a Painboy.
2 dead Carnifexes in a Brood (8.17 unsaved wounds)
4 dead Canoptek Wraiths (8.17 unsaved wounds, assuming no Resurrection Protocols)
5.44 Unsaved Wounds on a Stormsurge

If you could somehow manage to get it all alive into Rapid Fire range (441 lasgun shots!), you would do the following:

24.5 dead Space Marines
40.83 dead Ork Boyz, assuming no cover saves but with the FNP from a Painboy.
3 dead Carnifexes in a Brood (12.25 unsaved wounds)
6 dead Canoptek Wraiths (12.25 unsaved wounds, assuming no Resurrection Protocols)
1 dead Stormsurge (8.17 unsaved Wounds)

nice 1000+ pts of AM to kill 240 points canoptek wraiths with reanimation more likely 3 wraiths -> 120 points
or 360 pts stormsurge assuming the whole formation is within 12" (not possible) so it will not die at all ...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
HEY!
You mock, but I've tried the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. That many Lasguns? It actually gave someone pause, when fired en masse with FRSRF!

and? was the formation worth its "points"

Well...

I testfired it against my brother's Tyranids.
Before I could resolve any other weapons, the Lasguns alone had wiped out a Carnifex brood.

Anecdotal, but... Okay. That is fine,

I hope master of ordinance is finally satisfied now...

Nope, because that formation is over 1000 points before upgrades. For less than that I could take two Shadowswords and wreck face.

For the same points as an ESIC, I could (and would) take 3 IKTs. Not only would it dramatically outperform the ESIC on the tabletop, it cost significantly less.

Hmm...

$471 = 3x Imperial Knights

-or-

$756 = 3x ESIP core
$145 = 5x IG squad
$901 total

The IKTs cost you half as much, are vastly easier to build & paint, and perform better on the tabletop in *every* phase of the game (movement, shooting, assault, morale). The ESIC is so bad, it's laughable.

Well feth me. $1 per point, or thereabouts. And still made of turds. I don't have much hope for the next IG dex, given the current precedent.

 Selym wrote:
Well feth me. $1 per point, or thereabouts. And still made of turds. I don't have much hope for the next IG dex, given the current precedent.

You never know, we may finally get a buff.... If pigs grow wings and start flying.

Well AM basically WW2 ruskies. Throw so many humans at the enemy that it might eventually do something.

That was only a short term strategy for the Soviet Union. Eventually, they fielded better equipment than the Germans. Whose equipment is highly overrated.

Did I miss something or didnt the new formation allow you to take any number of Command squads (and thus) MOO without requiring any other units. All as part of one formation?
That also means that conceivably one could take a CAD and an extra 6 command squads to order them about and support them with whatever other nasty tricks one would like?
Where is your God Emperor now? In the chimera with the officers where he has always been!

 Redleg wrote:
Did I miss something or didnt the new formation allow you to take any number of Command squads (and thus) MOO without requiring any other units. All as part of one formation?
That also means that conceivably one could take a CAD and an extra 6 command squads to order them about and support them with whatever other nasty tricks one would like?
Where is your God Emperor now? In the chimera with the officers where he has always been!

The catch is that you are paying 145 pts per MOOmera. That's +20 points more than a Basilisk with the same S9 AP3 large blast.

If you take 6 MOOmeras, that's 870 pts before any weapon upgrades for the Vets inside. If each takes 30 pts in upgrades, we're at 1050 pts total.

For very similar points, I can take an IKT AdLance of 3 Paladins. I lay down the same 6x AP3 Large Blasts, but are far more survivable due to the higher AV and re-rollable Ion Shield, not to mention the S(D) attacks and Stomp in assault.

If Imperial Knights are better, AdMech doesn't need to exist.