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OgreChubbs wrote:
Make the average guard better. So you do not need 170 of them for a 1k game.

Better compared to what? I mean if you want troop infantry that can compete with Marines and Eldar troops, point-for-point... why not just play Marines or Eldar?

I would rather see the support elements of the IG (read: their tanks and stuff) get improved over their infantry. Guardsmen by design are basically supposed to do nothing but die while costing you very little points, and they do that pretty well.

The problem is that Guardsmen are very expensive for what they don't do.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Make the average guard better. So you do not need 170 of them for a 1k game.

Better compared to what? I mean if you want troop infantry that can compete with Marines and Eldar troops, point-for-point... why not just play Marines or Eldar?

I would rather see the support elements of the IG (read: their tanks and stuff) get improved over their infantry. Guardsmen by design are basically supposed to do nothing but die while costing you very little points, and they do that pretty well.

The problem is that IG sections are vastly overpriced and far too weak. A small buff is needed.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Make the average guard better. So you do not need 170 of them for a 1k game.

Better compared to what? I mean if you want troop infantry that can compete with Marines and Eldar troops, point-for-point... why not just play Marines or Eldar?

I would rather see the support elements of the IG (read: their tanks and stuff) get improved over their infantry. Guardsmen by design are basically supposed to do nothing but die while costing you very little points, and they do that pretty well.

The problem is that IG sections are vastly overpriced and far too weak. A small buff is needed.

How about allowing them to take 2 heavy or special weapons in a squad? Doesn't alter costs or stats but allows them to fling out a fair bit more fire-power and can be focused towards long range denfensive units or offensive blobs.

ragnorack1 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Make the average guard better. So you do not need 170 of them for a 1k game.

Better compared to what? I mean if you want troop infantry that can compete with Marines and Eldar troops, point-for-point... why not just play Marines or Eldar?

I would rather see the support elements of the IG (read: their tanks and stuff) get improved over their infantry. Guardsmen by design are basically supposed to do nothing but die while costing you very little points, and they do that pretty well.

The problem is that IG sections are vastly overpriced and far too weak. A small buff is needed.

How about allowing them to take 2 heavy or special weapons in a squad? Doesn't alter costs or stats but allows them to fling out a fair bit more fire-power and can be focused towards long range denfensive units or offensive blobs.

Said Special/Heavy weapons are vastly overpriced and really need a points reduction before they become viable.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Guardsmen by design are basically supposed to do nothing but die while costing you very little points, and they do that pretty well.

The imperial guardsman embodies the indomitable will, and power of the human spirit. If the guardsmen exists only to die, that will cannot persist.

Why play guard if not for the guardsman?

I'm not arguing that they should be on the level of space marines, but they should serve a function besides simply dieing.




It is the ability to relate to the guardsman that makes him special., By treating him not as an individual, but as a single part of a collective entity, you have removed him from the guard. Yes, wave tactics, and hordes of guardsmen are an important part of the guard, but you need to balance that with the ability for the guardsman to be useful as himself.

I think the biggest problem with guard lies not in the codex but in the edition. Tanks are just bad in 7th edition. I can't really see anything good happen to guard until 8th drops whenever that is.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Guardsmen by design are basically supposed to do nothing but die while costing you very little points, and they do that pretty well.

The imperial guardsman embodies the indomitable will, and power of the human spirit. If the guardsmen exists only to die, that will cannot persist.

Why play guard if not for the guardsman?

I'm not arguing that they should be on the level of space marines, but they should serve a function besides simply dieing.

I have to agree with this. I would like to take non-blob infantry squads and NOT feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot for doing so. My Guard may not be a light infantry regiment, but right now my Guardsmen just feel like a tax unit, and I'm sick of taking vets.

One of the coolest things about 40k is that you can come up with your own stories and narratives whilst playing the game. Narratively speaking, the guard currently function as a way to juxtapose the might of space marines to the fragility of normal humans. It is very hard for me to actually have characters within my guard force, as they die with ease, lack distinguishing characteristics in game, and struggle to eliminate any kind opposition. You can't have a hero if he/she is just like everyone else.

I guess what I am saying here is that there needs to be something about guardsmen that allows a single model to stand above the rest.

I want that guardsman that is brave enough to climb ontop of a tervagon and plant a melta bomb.
I want that one guardsman to hold his ground when everyone else in his squad has perished, and then to go on and avenge them.
I want that commander that gets lucky with a cheap shot on a chaos lord.
I want that one sniper that through both luck and skill takes out an enemy leader across the board.

I just want cool gak to happen and it saddens me that the guard are in a position where awesome stuff just dosen't happen.

Well guardsman are weak and accomplish nothing alone but when they are a lot... they stil don't do much.

Vet plasma spam seems to be the way to role here with some deepstriking MT melta squads. Glasscannon build i guess.

ragnorack1 wrote:
How about allowing them to take 2 heavy or special weapons in a squad?

Doesn't alter costs or stats but allows them to fling out a fair bit more fire-power and can be focused towards long range denfensive units or offensive blobs.

The IG already have that - HWS (3 Heavy) & SWS (3 Special), along with Veterans (1 Heavy & 3 Special @ BS4) and CCS/PCS (1 Heavy & 2 Special / 4 Special). The ability to take more Heavy & Special weapons isn't the problem.

The problem is that IG pay far too much for Heavy & Special weapons. Paying a full 15 pts for a Plasma Gun on a BS3 Sv5+ model instead of a BS4 Sv3+ model is ridiculous - the mass-produced IG version should cost at least 5 points less. And this ripples through all of the other Imperial weapons upgrades.

For IG to be competitive, costs definitely need to be revised downward.

Sledgehammer wrote:It is the ability to relate to the guardsman that makes him special., By treating him not as an individual, but as a single part of a collective entity, you have removed him from the guard. Yes, wave tactics, and hordes of guardsmen are an important part of the guard, but you need to balance that with the ability for the guardsman to be useful as himself..

Hey, I play the Guard not the Borg.... although the idea of the Imperial Guard being a massive collective does appeal - "We are the Imperial Guard. Power down all weapons and prepare to join us, resistance is futile". They could even have a special rule that makes all opponents killed in melee join the blob which killed them

On a serious note though the Special and Heavy weapons are so stupidly over priced that being able to take more will have no effect on most playstyles. Right now Veterans are the only semi viable option we have and even then they are of debatable use. We need some buff and a vast reduction in Special/Heavy weapon costs.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The problem is that IG pay far too much for Heavy & Special weapons. Paying a full 15 pts for a Plasma Gun on a BS3 Sv5+ model instead of a BS4 Sv3+ model is ridiculous - the mass-produced IG version should cost at least 5 points less.

To be fair, things like plasma guns and meltaguns? They're not exactly "mass-produced" in the sense you're thinking of. They're still relatively rare with certain Forge Worlds producing them.
Heavy Weapons, Grenade Launchers, and Flamethrowers? Radically different story.

I, personally, feel like the reason we got these points costs was that they had intended to have some kind of rule where special/heavy weapons got a "Look Out, Sir!" save to represent other members of the squad picking the weapons up.

For IG to be competitive, costs definitely need to be revised downward.

Oh definitely. Biggest offender is melee/pistol weapons for Sergeants and Officers with Special/Heavy Weapons on the same level.

I again would like to see our basic infantry become worth a damn, I would like to run a mechanized infantry list (to match my regiment's fluff) without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot, and I don't mean veterans. I mean actual infantry platoons.

From waay back on page 52:

 Selym wrote:
The problem is that at the current costs, a typical IG army takes two large briefcases to move to the FLGS.

5 ppm for infantry is about the right cost for cannon fodder, but our cannnon fodder is worth about 3 ppm.

My standby army-wide rule that fixes our infantry (minus killpower):

Human Ingenuity:
Humans are right bastards to remove once entrenched.
-All IG infantry gain a permanent +1 cover save, to a minimum of 6+, and a maximum of 2+.

 Selym wrote:
From waay back on page 52:

 Selym wrote:
The problem is that at the current costs, a typical IG army takes two large briefcases to move to the FLGS.

5 ppm for infantry is about the right cost for cannon fodder, but our cannnon fodder is worth about 3 ppm.

My standby army-wide rule that fixes our infantry (minus killpower):

Human Ingenuity:
Humans are right bastards to remove once entrenched.
-All IG infantry gain a permanent +1 cover save, to a minimum of 6+, and a maximum of 2+.

And I still maintain that it should be a +1 armor save while they are able to claim a Cover Save.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The problem is that IG pay far too much for Heavy & Special weapons. Paying a full 15 pts for a Plasma Gun on a BS3 Sv5+ model instead of a BS4 Sv3+ model is ridiculous - the mass-produced IG version should cost at least 5 points less.

To be fair, things like plasma guns and meltaguns? They're not exactly "mass-produced" in the sense you're thinking of. They're still relatively rare with certain Forge Worlds producing them.
Heavy Weapons, Grenade Launchers, and Flamethrowers? Radically different story.

I, personally, feel like the reason we got these points costs was that they had intended to have some kind of rule where special/heavy weapons got a "Look Out, Sir!" save to represent other members of the squad picking the weapons up.

That'd go a long way to help, but even if we accept that Plasma and Meltaguns are rarer, it just means the more conventional special and heavy weapons should be free. I think it also means GW needs to think outside the box and come up with some other conventional means to afford the IG the type of capabilities they need to remain relevant.

For IG to be competitive, costs definitely need to be revised downward.

Oh definitely. Biggest offender is melee/pistol weapons for Sergeants and Officers with Special/Heavy Weapons on the same level.

 Selym wrote:
The problem is that at the current costs, a typical IG army takes two large briefcases to move to the FLGS.

Or, as I I noted, one 10" w x 11" h x 17" l duffel bag.

...So obviously we don't want them to end up with an even higher model count on the table through cost reduction, or else you'll need a bigger duffel bag.

AM codex is a mess. I never played them and by simply scanning through the codex and seeing them played by my brother's friend i noticed evident flaws.

commissars are way overpriced.
special characters suck
lord commissar is wayyyyyu overpriced
many units are crazy overpriced
bs3 everywhere! a 150pt tank at bs3...
25pts upgrade for a 5pt guy with str 3... y even bother
etc

biggest flaw i see so far
Inquisition Acolyte + boltgun = 5pts
AM guardsman + flashlight = 5pts
both have same exact stats except moral i think. one has a good gun that can do something while the other one doesn't do jack and both cost same price. jeez, wonder ehich one id rather have.

 aka_mythos wrote:
...So obviously we don't want them to end up with an even higher model count on the table through cost reduction, or else you'll need a bigger duffel bag.

Not really.

This is how I roll...

1 duffel bag, 10" wide, 17" long and 11" high.

All told, that bag could easily carry:
500+ pts 1 Shadowsword
2,500 pts 200+ IG infantry
1,250 pts 9 IG Armor
= 4,250 pts total

If the next Codex should cut points in half, I will still be able to carry my entire IG force in that bag, with points/models to spare.

I'm not really worried about points costs. Worst case, I bring a backpack and throw a few superheavies in there...

 Sledgehammer wrote:
The imperial guardsman embodies the indomitable will, and power of the human spirit. If the guardsmen exists only to die, that will cannot persist.

This is poetic, but in the context of game design/mechanics it's an empty platitude. Going back to my question, what exactly is your 3-5 point model supposed to be doing that it can't currently do? And again, what model exactly are guardsmen being compared to as the metric here? Fire Warriors? Marines? Guardians?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The problem is that Guardsmen are very expensive for what they don't do.

I don't really think that's true. 150 points of guardsmen is almost as durable point-for-point as a 150 point tactical squad against small arms fire, and is over twice as durable as an equally costed tactical marine squad point-for-point when given a 5++ save, or against AP3 and stronger weapons.

It's hard to say how Guardsmen should be changed when no one can offer any concrete example of what they should be doing that they currently aren't doing. Neublous statements like "they need to be better!" or "they need to be stronger" don't leave much room for critical thinking, imo.

I'm assuming you're talking about basic SMs and IG without any weapons upgrades and in a relatively narrow construct of small arms fire. Now have them fight 150 pts of Ork Boyz, or engage 150 pts of Tau shooting. The notion of 5++ saves means you need to cost in the source of that save.

As I've said before, I'm not looking for stats changes, mostly cost changes.

Assuming typical S4 AP5 "small arms" 10 hits = 6.7 kills = 33 pts of dead 5-pt IG. Or 23 pts of dead 14-pt SM. Point for point, the SM are about 50% more durable against standard AP5 small arms. For parity, IG would have to see points reduced down to 3 pts per model.

Personally, I like IG around 4 points per model, so I can have Conscripts at 3 points. However, as 4 points is "high", I throw in a "free" Flamer and HB.

Rules-wise, I'd like to see IG start with +1 to all Cover Saves (with a 6++ in the open), and the ability to pull casualties as they see fit. I'd also roll Heavy Weapons back to regular Guardsmen as Gunner & Loader so that enemies can't pick out the Heavies until all the Lasguns are dead.

Considering the massive amounts of models you can bring to the table as a guard player already I would personally find it much easier to buff current guardsmen instead of making them cheaper. At least that is what my wallet wants. I know I want a veteran tank crew upgrade though!

Considering the massive amounts of models I own, I find it much easier to make current Guardsmen much cheaper than buffer.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Rules-wise, I'd like to see IG start with +1 to all Cover Saves (with a 6++ in the open), and the ability to pull casualties as they see fit.

With ignore cover around every corner a +1 to cover save is may be not the best idea ...
may be a special rule to sacrifice movment in order to "dig in" which could be a +2 to armor save.
!AND! medi kit for every guard unit (feel no pain 5+)

than the guard is worth 5 ppm

We need doctrines and a way to make our armies feel our own.

The current IG codex is a joke in that it took everything good about the 5th ed one and removed it! Then gave us a teaser of other units while being subpar. I play both Tau and IG and I can tell you that Tau are way better updated then IG.

I use to play my IG all the time but after getting raped to death 500 times by necrons because BS 3 cant kill them and BS 4 vets are like paper to cron, i just gave up. Its not worth the frustration of dealing with a lazy codex. I WANT to play my IG army, I really do but in its current state its just bad..

 swampyturtle wrote:
We need doctrines and a way to make our armies feel our own.

The current IG codex is a joke in that it took everything good about the 5th ed one and removed it! Then gave us a teaser of other units while being subpar. I play both Tau and IG and I can tell you that Tau are way better updated then IG.

I use to play my IG all the time but after getting raped to death 500 times by necrons because BS 3 cant kill them and BS 4 vets are like paper to cron, i just gave up. Its not worth the frustration of dealing with a lazy codex. I WANT to play my IG army, I really do but in its current state its just bad..

i know that feeling ... its a bit frustrating if you only killt 5 to 10 models during the shooting pahse tue to a 3+ or 4+ reanimation protocoll ...

 swampyturtle wrote:
We need doctrines and a way to make our armies feel our own.

The current IG codex is a joke in that it took everything good about the 5th ed one and removed it! Then gave us a teaser of other units while being subpar. I play both Tau and IG and I can tell you that Tau are way better updated then IG.

I use to play my IG all the time but after getting raped to death 500 times by necrons because BS 3 cant kill them and BS 4 vets are like paper to cron, i just gave up. Its not worth the frustration of dealing with a lazy codex. I WANT to play my IG army, I really do but in its current state its just bad..

Ugh, I have been there too my friend. When you throw everything you have at the enemy only to kill less than a squad and they respond by wiping a big portion of your army off the board the despair does really start to set in.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 swampyturtle wrote:
We need doctrines and a way to make our armies feel our own.

The current IG codex is a joke in that it took everything good about the 5th ed one and removed it! Then gave us a teaser of other units while being subpar. I play both Tau and IG and I can tell you that Tau are way better updated then IG.

I use to play my IG all the time but after getting raped to death 500 times by necrons because BS 3 cant kill them and BS 4 vets are like paper to cron, i just gave up. Its not worth the frustration of dealing with a lazy codex. I WANT to play my IG army, I really do but in its current state its just bad..

Ugh, I have been there too my friend. When you throw everything you have at the enemy only to kill less than a squad and they respond by wiping a big portion of your army off the board the despair does really start to set in.

Pretty much this. I've lost all hope for my Guard army, so I'm focusing on my Eldar and my future 30k army. It just feels so disheartening putting the fire of 30 guys into 1 squad and only killing 4 marines total.