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Since this has taken a turn for the bizarre what about one of these VS 40k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_%28tank%29

There was a great thread on this a few months back but it either got locked or deleted. General consensus was that these things would obliterate most of what 40k could throw at it

#ponder

 Ratius wrote:
Since this has taken a turn for the bizarre what about one of these VS 40k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_%28tank%29

There was a great thread on this a few months back but it either got locked or deleted. General consensus was that these things would obliterate most of what 40k could throw at it

#ponder

The main way to deal with Bolos is to blast them from orbit.

Bolos peter out in the double digit megaton range and so would be largely helpless against capital ships.

They would annihilate everything on the ground short of Imperator titans, C'tan, and war in heaven era gubbinz to be sure though.

 Ratius wrote:
Since this has taken a turn for the bizarre what about one of these VS 40k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_%28tank%29

There was a great thread on this a few months back but it either got locked or deleted. General consensus was that these things would obliterate most of what 40k could throw at it

#ponder

Just one of those monsters would require something along the lines of orbital bombardment. I doubt even an Imperator Titan could stand up to a MK33.

Werent there ground battery Bolos though Kain? they'd probably nuke the Cruiser right back.

 Ratius wrote:
Werent there ground battery Bolos though Kain? they'd probably nuke the Cruiser right back.

Megaton ground to orbit shots vs giga/teraton emitting and tanking ships isn't a trade the bolos can win.

So, since we've just spent the past couple pages talking about all the stupid high-end stuff in 40k: if all of that really exists then how does an army of normal humans with WWI-level equipment win battles?

I like how on the starwars side of this people keep bringing up weapons and characters from all across the timeline to offer up as proof that SW could win. While on the 40k side everyone has stuck pretty much with just what is on offer during 40k. Star wars doesn't have a single chance against the 41st millennium, I laugh about how bad the SW galaxy is screwed if they went up against humans from the dark age of technology, as well as eldar and/or necrons at their full strength during the war in heaven. or even all the primarchs and every space marine legion during the great crusade.

 Peregrine wrote:
So, since we've just spent the past couple pages talking about all the stupid high-end stuff in 40k: if all of that really exists then how does an army of normal humans with WWI-level equipment win battles?

Why is anyone in the prequel trilogy still alive after a full power bombardment from an acclamator on some droids in the clone wars cartoon when the ICS says this should be enough to cause a mass extinction event? Or when somebody blithers out a figure of "one hundred megatons" for an artillery bombardment that wouldn't even impress Gorbachev's red army? Or "hundred kiloton" missiles from Republic gunships that are maybe hellfire missile grade in firepower while two armies shoot each other in giant massed blobs just getting for an artillery bombardment.

And the answer is; they lose a lot.

The Imperium lost the battle for the Orpheus sector and barely even slowed the Maynarkh dynasty down, with only one major setback occuring at all when the Death Korps threw itself in a suicide charge at the biggest Necron megalith they could find to nuke it. The Imperial Guard was never even relevant to Ahriman in his pursuit for the power of the black library and if they tried to get involved he'd have incinerated them anyway. Generally speaking, either you find some way to handle Nurgle's sector rotting plagues or you auto-lose.

And similarly if you take from high end feats you get leman russ's with recoil so extreme it'd rip the T-72s I drove in the Russian army in half and lasguns that hit harder than the machine guns on that very self same tank mixed with power swords that could carve that tank of mine like butter and terajoule multimeltas.

Similarly, the Chaos Gods are quite happy with the status quo where everyone lives a life of futility that feeds them endlessly. The Star Wars galaxy's invaders represent a smorgasboard of delicious mortals to corrupt and drag down into the same misery of their chosen playground. That the Empire is filled with hilariously insecure and/or Power Hungry people and that the societies in Star Wars allow for religious freedom would make it trivially easy to cripple Star Wars with Chaos incited civil war.

 Kain wrote:
Why is anyone in the prequel trilogy still alive after a full power bombardment from an acclamator on some droids in the clone wars cartoon when the ICS says this should be enough to cause a mass extinction event? Or when somebody blithers out a figure of "one hundred megatons" for an artillery bombardment that wouldn't even impress Gorbachev's red army? Or "hundred kiloton" missiles from Republic gunships that are maybe hellfire missile grade in firepower while two armies shoot each other in giant massed blobs just getting for an artillery bombardment.

Because Star Wars fluff is also inconsistent?

The Imperium lost the battle for the Orpheus sector and barely even slowed the Maynarkh dynasty down, with only one major setback occuring at all when the Death Korps threw itself in a suicide charge at the biggest Necron megalith they could find to nuke it.

But the point is the Necrons still lost to a WWI army. If they were as powerful as the high-end fluff claims then the DKoK shouldn't have been able to accomplish anything. But the fact that they did demonstrates that, while the Necrons are clearly better than the WWI-in-space DKoK, their margin of superiority isn't that big.

Well... no.

Necron weaponry is super-advanced, but it still has the basic profile of any projectile weapon. It has an effective range, it has a maximum range, and it has a (theoretically) finite amount of energy with which to kill things with (though every time it kills something it recharges a little bit).

That a Gauss Flayer packs enough power to kill a regular human being 10,000 times over is irrelevant. It's a weapon designed for fighting much, much tougher things than regular humans... so what you end up with is a weapon that is massive overkill when used against WW1-in-space humans, and 99% of your Flayer's killing power is lost in simply making that dead guy even more dead.

 Psienesis wrote:
That a Gauss Flayer packs enough power to kill a regular human being 10,000 times over is irrelevant. It's a weapon designed for fighting much, much tougher things than regular humans... so what you end up with is a weapon that is massive overkill when used against WW1-in-space humans, and 99% of your Flayer's killing power is lost in simply making that dead guy even more dead.

But that doesn't make much sense. If the gauss flayer is such massive overkill then it shouldn't stop when it hits a single human target and neatly dump all of its energy into overkilling the human without damaging anything nearby. It should tear through the human target and keep going, obliterating whole formations of guardsmen with a single shot. But what we actually see is that Necron weapons are roughly equivalent to Imperial weapons. They're better, but not orders of magnitude better.

Guys, you are forgetting three reasons why Star Wars would win.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That a Gauss Flayer packs enough power to kill a regular human being 10,000 times over is irrelevant. It's a weapon designed for fighting much, much tougher things than regular humans... so what you end up with is a weapon that is massive overkill when used against WW1-in-space humans, and 99% of your Flayer's killing power is lost in simply making that dead guy even more dead.

But that doesn't make much sense. If the gauss flayer is such massive overkill then it shouldn't stop when it hits a single human target and neatly dump all of its energy into overkilling the human without damaging anything nearby. It should tear through the human target and keep going, obliterating whole formations of guardsmen with a single shot. But what we actually see is that Necron weapons are roughly equivalent to Imperial weapons. They're better, but not orders of magnitude better.

The Adeptus Mechanicus in Xenology, one of the portrayals where the Mechanicus is shown as deeply scientifically knowledgeable, gave up trying to figure out how Gauss Flayers work besides "It tears things apart and doesn't correspond to the laws of physics as we understand them". Ergo it's probably a magic gun that works on magical processes that cannot be quantified beyond it's ability to affect tank armor as easily as organic tissue. It's like trying to reconcile a Star Trek phaser's ability to completely vaporize a person with the fact that that much energy should char grill everyone in the room as well. It's a futile gesture.

 Kain wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus in Xenology, one of the portrayals where the Mechanicus is shown as deeply scientifically knowledgeable, gave up trying to figure out how Gauss Flayers work besides "It tears things apart and doesn't correspond to the laws of physics as we understand them". Ergo it's probably a magic gun that works on magical processes that cannot be quantified beyond it's ability to affect tank armor as easily as organic tissue.

So if it's all magic then how do you know how effective it is? Maybe the magic only works on enemies that are native to the 40k universe, and it would be completely useless against anything from Star Wars.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus in Xenology, one of the portrayals where the Mechanicus is shown as deeply scientifically knowledgeable, gave up trying to figure out how Gauss Flayers work besides "It tears things apart and doesn't correspond to the laws of physics as we understand them". Ergo it's probably a magic gun that works on magical processes that cannot be quantified beyond it's ability to affect tank armor as easily as organic tissue.

So if it's all magic then how do you know how effective it is? Maybe the magic only works on enemies that are native to the 40k universe, and it would be completely useless against anything from Star Wars.

In versus debate parlence from Spacebattles.com, all faction's powers are assumed to still work to still allow a debate to take place. Ergo, a Star Trek Phaser, even though it's ability to completely disintegrate a person when doing so should release enough heat to char grill everyone in the room at least, still works on a B1 battle droid even though the only reason the phaser can work at all is "treknobabble magic".

I vote that the groovieness of the canteena band would create peace in the 41st millennium, then they would be swarmed by endless storm troopers in a battle that never ends because they are bs0.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That a Gauss Flayer packs enough power to kill a regular human being 10,000 times over is irrelevant. It's a weapon designed for fighting much, much tougher things than regular humans... so what you end up with is a weapon that is massive overkill when used against WW1-in-space humans, and 99% of your Flayer's killing power is lost in simply making that dead guy even more dead.

But that doesn't make much sense. If the gauss flayer is such massive overkill then it shouldn't stop when it hits a single human target and neatly dump all of its energy into overkilling the human without damaging anything nearby. It should tear through the human target and keep going, obliterating whole formations of guardsmen with a single shot. But what we actually see is that Necron weapons are roughly equivalent to Imperial weapons. They're better, but not orders of magnitude better.

What you expect "reality" to be and what "reality" is are apparently not in synch.

Even if they beat x faction or so, then the Necrons come, there ships endure massive damage and smaller secorts cripple battleships.

Plus the teseract vaults, all there super powerful weaponry, the world engine that shrugged off the firepower of entire 40k fleets.

And barely any race equals a space marine boarding action of a entire chapter plus ramming with a full battlebarge.

Basically the Necrons fully woken up roll over everything.

 Kain wrote:
In versus debate parlence from Spacebattles.com, all faction's powers are assumed to still work to still allow a debate to take place.

Why do I care about the debating rules for some other random forum? That's a sensible rule for something like a Star Wars blaster, which kills you by the conventional approach of blowing holes in your body until something important is destroyed, since even if its operating principles aren't understood all that really matters is how much energy the shot delivers. But if you're going to resort to "it's magic" then you don't get to make assumptions about how that magic works.


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 jhe90 wrote:
And barely any race equals a space marine boarding action of a entire chapter plus ramming with a full battlebarge.

Probably because no sensible faction bothers with boarding a ship (outside of rare situations where a ship needs to be taken intact), they just shoot it until it is destroyed.

I would put the star wars blaster on par with a las rifle.

The phaser is a bit different, I would rank it up to a melta pistol.

 Psienesis wrote:
What you expect "reality" to be and what "reality" is are apparently not in synch.

Alternatively, absurd claims like "10,000 times more powerful than any other gun" are simply outliers or empty boasting and shouldn't be taken seriously. If a Necron character brags about how awesome his gun is and how it can destroy everything and then, when he shoots something with it, the effect is barely more than a lasgun or bolter the obvious conclusion is that the Necron's claim is false.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
In versus debate parlence from Spacebattles.com, all faction's powers are assumed to still work to still allow a debate to take place.

Why do I care about the debating rules for some other random forum? That's a sensible rule for something like a Star Wars blaster, which kills you by the conventional approach of blowing holes in your body until something important is destroyed, since even if its operating principles aren't understood all that really matters is how much energy the shot delivers. But if you're going to resort to "it's magic" then you don't get to make assumptions about how that magic works.

Because people want to talk about something even if it's as blatantly nonsensical and hard to quantify as a spell of flesh to stone or a wraith's touch of constitution drain? You can't even guess on what mechanics power that and yet the reasonable assumption is that a Lich's army of the undead from Faerun isn't going to be incapable of working if pitted against the Lannisters from Game of Thrones because that setting has nothing like Faerun's magic system. Otherwise there's no point in the thread and everyone should just go home.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
In versus debate parlence from Spacebattles.com, all faction's powers are assumed to still work to still allow a debate to take place.

Why do I care about the debating rules for some other random forum? That's a sensible rule for something like a Star Wars blaster, which kills you by the conventional approach of blowing holes in your body until something important is destroyed, since even if its operating principles aren't understood all that really matters is how much energy the shot delivers. But if you're going to resort to "it's magic" then you don't get to make assumptions about how that magic works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
And barely any race equals a space marine boarding action of a entire chapter plus ramming with a full battlebarge.

Probably because no sensible faction bothers with boarding a ship (outside of rare situations where a ship needs to be taken intact), they just shoot it until it is destroyed.

Boarding actions happen all the time in SW. The Tantive IV, the Endar Spire, the Esseles, the Black Talon... just to name a few.

Actually a boarding action may incapacitate a ship faster than a straight fire fight from space.

Especially if getting weapons through powerful shielding.

That being said star wars or star trek would have a very difficult time with a space marine boarding party.

Unless they have the special character Warf

If its a vs match with total cooperation of the 40k forces vs the same in Star Wars then Star Wars loses...

I think a crossover in Darth Vade Emperor Palpatine era Empire would bear much better results.

FYI. ( I've kinda mapped this out in my head. Palpatine would willingly become a daemon prince and half the Galactic Empire would fall into chaos as his servants and he would replace Failbaddon as the "True" Emperor of Mankind and create 14th Black Crusade.

Darth Vader would not allow himself to become a servant of chaos( as he does not want to replace palpatine with yet another master) but would seek an alliance with the IoM forces in order to overthrow the emperor with intentions of ruling it for himself ( of course lying and claiming imperial compliance.)

The Admech would agree to allow the star wars empire to use their own technology in exchange for the secrets to safe faster than light travel and various other tech.

Awesomeness ensues.

Of course they'd have to promise to purge every other species in the Star Wars universe. You know imperial truth and all that.

 Doctadeth wrote:
sonic ordinus. In the movie, Hulk goes down to sonic weapons on a SMALL scale. and an uparmoured version, properly positioned would be able to kill him.

Mageto is obvious. just send a couple of platoons of unarmed ogyrns at him

Superman, Tyrant star or any other red star. Oh. OR alternatively just hit him with psychic powers, stated he's weak to magic. Or have a naviator give him the third eye.

Thor. Take him down from orbit with either mass drivers, OR energy beams. Whilst his hammer can travel through space, He cannot.

Ogryns suddenly learned how to fly?! And penetrate forcefields with nothing more than thrown rocks? Holy crap!! Clearly, I'm calling that argument ridiculous.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Doctadeth wrote:
sonic ordinus. In the movie, Hulk goes down to sonic weapons on a SMALL scale. and an uparmoured version, properly positioned would be able to kill him.

Mageto is obvious. just send a couple of platoons of unarmed ogyrns at him

Superman, Tyrant star or any other red star. Oh. OR alternatively just hit him with psychic powers, stated he's weak to magic. Or have a naviator give him the third eye.

Thor. Take him down from orbit with either mass drivers, OR energy beams. Whilst his hammer can travel through space, He cannot.

Ogryns suddenly learned how to fly?! And penetrate forcefields with nothing more than thrown rocks? Holy crap!! Clearly, I'm calling that argument ridiculous.

He's talking about the Movie versions.

I don't remember if Movie Magneto had a force-field, but he was taken down with a plastic bullet.

 Kain wrote:
Because people want to talk about something even if it's as blatantly nonsensical and hard to quantify as a spell of flesh to stone or a wraith's touch of constitution drain?

That's nice. But I don't see why your desire to avoid letting the magic-using army lose horribly because its magic doesn't work should be relevant here. "Necrons get punched to death by naked ewoks because their magic guns don't work against anything from outside 40k" is still an answer to the question of who would win, it just isn't the answer you want to have.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Because people want to talk about something even if it's as blatantly nonsensical and hard to quantify as a spell of flesh to stone or a wraith's touch of constitution drain?

That's nice. But I don't see why your desire to avoid letting the magic-using army lose horribly because its magic doesn't work should be relevant here. "Necrons get punched to death by naked ewoks because their magic guns don't work against anything from outside 40k" is still an answer to the question of who would win, it just isn't the answer you want to have.

Because then there's no point to the debate?

It's like asking if Yoda could beat Mike Tyson in a fist fight but then saying "he doesn't get the force or lightsabers, and he's dead because no animal has lived as long as he did". Or asking if Zeus could defeat the Roman Army only to say "only Zeus isn't in the fight because he's not real."

It's a worthless answer. Much as your contribution to the thread has been. In essence, you're gak posting.

 Psienesis wrote:
Boarding actions happen all the time in SW. The Tantive IV, the Endar Spire, the Esseles, the Black Talon... just to name a few.

That would be the rare case where a ship needs to be taken intact. Obviously the star destroyer could have killed the Tantive IV without much effort, but the goal was to capture a specific passenger alive. When the goal is to destroy an enemy ship (Endor, for example) Star Wars ships simply shoot each other until one side wins. Space marines, on the other hand, use boarding as a primary method of attacking the enemy even when the goal is simply to destroy the ship.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
Especially if getting weapons through powerful shielding.

Why are you assuming that boarding ships can break through shields when bullets/lasers/etc can't? Sending over a transport full of angry guys with chainsaws doesn't help very much if they just bounce off the shields.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Because then there's no point to the debate?

Sure there is. For example, a LRBT uses a conventional cannon and we can expect its shells to work just fine against targets from Star Wars. Refusing to grant all of your assumptions about how magic works just means that the Necrons won't be contributing much to this hypothetical war. And, again, not getting the "40k wins" answer that you want to have doesn't mean that there's no point to having the debate. A single Culture civilian transport effortlessly slaughters the entire 40k universe, but the fact that the outcome is a one-sided massacre doesn't mean that we can't have the debate.

Alternatively you could just abandon the "it's magic" claim and accept that gauss weapons are just somewhat more effective bolters/lasguns (based on their demonstrated effects), not magic guns that have 10,000 times the firepower of everything else but always neatly focus it on killing a single human instead of annihilating everything nearby and killing whole squads with a single shot.