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DoomShakaLaka wrote: If its a vs match with total cooperation of the 40k forces vs the same in Star Wars then Star Wars loses...
I think a crossover in Darth Vade Emperor Palpatine era Empire would bear much better results.
FYI. ( I've kinda mapped this out in my head. Palpatine would willingly become a daemon prince and half the Galactic Empire would fall into chaos as his servants and he would replace Failbaddon as the "True" Emperor of Mankind and create 14th Black Crusade.
Darth Vader would not allow himself to become a servant of chaos( as he does not want to replace palpatine with yet another master) but would seek an alliance with the IoM forces in order to overthrow the emperor with intentions of ruling it for himself ( of course lying and claiming imperial compliance.)
The Admech would agree to allow the star wars empire to use their own technology in exchange for the secrets to safe faster than light travel and various other tech.
Awesomeness ensues.
Vitiate was a far more terrifying Emperor than Palpatine could ever dream of being. The dude's a chump, and not particularly strong in the Force. Further, he has nothing to offer the Ruinous Power to justify Princedom. He'll need to walk the Path of Glory, the same as any other would-be Champion.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Sure there is. For example, a LRBT uses a conventional cannon and we can expect its shells to work just fine against targets from Star Wars. Refusing to grant all of your assumptions about how magic works just means that the Necrons won't be contributing much to this hypothetical war. And, again, not getting the "40k wins" answer that you want to have doesn't mean that there's no point to having the debate. A single Culture civilian transport effortlessly slaughters the entire 40k universe, but the fact that the outcome is a one-sided massacre doesn't mean that we can't have the debate.
Alternatively you could just abandon the "it's magic" claim and accept that gauss weapons are just somewhat more effective bolters/lasguns (based on their demonstrated effects), not magic guns that have 10,000 times the firepower of everything else but always neatly focus it on killing a single human instead of annihilating everything nearby and killing whole squads with a single shot.
Ah you're one of those people who try to deny that Phasers are allowed to work against Star Wars because Phasers don't make any sense by conventional physics.
We know what a Gauss Gun does, which is arbitrarily disintegrate an arbitrary amount of matter and make it arbitrarily disappear into the ether to never be seen again. It's as arbitrary and physics breaking as a star wars disruptor, or the Sun crusher's magical sunbursting torpedoes, or the complete nonsense of the "Nucleonic chain reactions" of the galaxy gun's torpedoes. Simply because it does not work according to normal physics doesn't invalidate it's usage anymore than Mjolnir not making a lick of sense mean that Thor's not allowed to party with Sauron or that the One Ring is forbidden from corrupting the Dragonborn who isn't allowed to use his shouts either.
And would you stop cowardly quoting only the sections you wish to respond to? Nitpicking is, as I would hope you are aware of; poor debate form. Engage the whole point or do not engage at all. Refusal to do so will be taken as a concession that you are unwilling to properly contribute to the thread as per the parameters set by the OP and thus a concession that you have forfeited the debate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/12 20:59:44
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Kain wrote: Ah you're one of those people who try to deny that Phasers are allowed to work against Star Wars because Phasers don't make any sense by conventional physics.
That depends on what the explanation for phasers is. If you want to claim that phasers neatly disintegrate a single person because that's the upper limit of their energy per shot then fine, we can speculate about how much damage they'd do against Star Wars targets. But if you try to claim that phasers magically have massively more firepower and could easily kill a star destroyer with a single shot then I can just as legitimately claim that the magic would only work on Star Trek targets because it depends on the target having Star Trek DNA.
We know what a Gauss Gun does, which is arbitrarily disintegrate an arbitrary amount of matter and make it arbitrarily disappear into the ether to never be seen again.
And you're missing the point there. The claim was that the gauss weapon is massive overkill against a single guardsman and dumps thousands of times more firepower than necessary into that overkill without doing any damage outside of that single target. IOW, "infantry gauss weapons have the firepower of a titan's main gun, they just choose to limit its effectiveness to somewhat more than a bolter because magic". The obvious conclusion here is that infantry gauss weapons are slightly more effective than a bolter, and Necron bragging about how awesome they are is just empty boasting.
And would you stop quoting only the sections you wish to respond to?
No. I will continue quoting only the parts I'm actually responding to and not generate pointless walls of text, just like I removed your rule #1 violation from the quote above. Feel free to leave this thread if you don't like it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/12 21:09:18
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Actually, I recall reading somewhere that Gauss isn't the beam going from the gun to the target, it's the beam going from the target to the gun, thereby preventing the overkill effect of going through other guys.
Gotta give it to 40k. The have more consistently higher tier fluff than SW, and a lot of SW stuff has been invalidated by the new movie coming out. And besides, what stops the SW universe suffering the blatant handicaps Peregrine is putting on the 40k universe?
Lightsabers? Nope. Doesn't exist in 40k.
Force? Lol.
Laser blasters? Good luck hitting with the poor accuracy Storm Troopers seem to demonstrate. Or are the films not canon?
The only way this works is by why Kain has said: all parties get all assets described, with certain traits that are frequently mentioned, regardless of real-world-physics, being of paramount importance.
It's not really empty boasting, since those very same weapons were used to kill star-gods and who-knows-what-else in the War in Heaven.
You're conflating the rules of the table-top and the fact that this has to be a game where all factions have a chance against the other factions with whatever it is they pack with the fluff provided for the faction (which more than justifies its claims, taking, what, 30 planets in 100 days or something crazy?).
Otherwise, Codex: Necrons would be a very short book: "One day, the Necrons woke up and ended all life in the galaxy. Now, the only sound heard amongst the dim stars is the screech of Gauss weapons as the mad Phaerons send endless tides of their nigh-immortal troops against their rivals. The end."
Lightsabers? Nope. Doesn't exist in 40k.
Those do, actually. Sollex-pattern powersword. It does away with the physical blade entirely and has just a blade-shaped field of matter-destabilizing energy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/12 21:35:22
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: If its a vs match with total cooperation of the 40k forces vs the same in Star Wars then Star Wars loses...
I think a crossover in Darth Vade Emperor Palpatine era Empire would bear much better results.
FYI. ( I've kinda mapped this out in my head. Palpatine would willingly become a daemon prince and half the Galactic Empire would fall into chaos as his servants and he would replace Failbaddon as the "True" Emperor of Mankind and create 14th Black Crusade.
Darth Vader would not allow himself to become a servant of chaos( as he does not want to replace palpatine with yet another master) but would seek an alliance with the IoM forces in order to overthrow the emperor with intentions of ruling it for himself ( of course lying and claiming imperial compliance.)
The Admech would agree to allow the star wars empire to use their own technology in exchange for the secrets to safe faster than light travel and various other tech.
Awesomeness ensues.
Vitiate was a far more terrifying Emperor than Palpatine could ever dream of being. The dude's a chump, and not particularly strong in the Force. Further, he has nothing to offer the Ruinous Power to justify Princedom. He'll need to walk the Path of Glory, the same as any other would-be Champion.
Nay my friend it is not his power that would make him the face of chaos but rather his influence. As an already established"emperor" he has the ability to lead astray both those who blindly follow the empire of the star wars universe as well as being able to claim that he is the emperor returned w
Show the true path to imperial truth and lead the simple faithed imperium inhabitants of 40k. The resulting split would be very pleasurable to dark gods as they have thrown their own universe even further into the far, and created endless war in another galaxy as well.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, I recall reading somewhere that Gauss isn't the beam going from the gun to the target, it's the beam going from the target to the gun, thereby preventing the overkill effect of going through other guys.
So why not aim at a target at the back of the formation of infantry?
And besides, what stops the SW universe suffering the blatant handicaps Peregrine is putting on the 40k universe?
I'm not putting any handicaps on 40k, I'm just limiting 40k weapons to what they have demonstrated, not exaggerated fanboy claims about how awesome they are. And by that standard infantry gauss weapons are somewhat more effective than other 40k infantry weapons, but not orders of magnitude better. But if you want to claim that gauss weapons are magically 10,000 times better than their demonstrated firepower against guardsmen and just magically limit themselves to only killing a single guardsman per shot then I could just as easily claim that gauss magic only works against 40k targets. "It's magic, it does whatever I want it to" works both ways.
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Psienesis wrote: Otherwise, Codex: Necrons would be a very short book: "One day, the Necrons woke up and ended all life in the galaxy. Now, the only sound heard amongst the dim stars is the screech of Gauss weapons as the mad Phaerons send endless tides of their nigh-immortal troops against their rivals. The end."
Well yes, that's exactly what it would be if the high-end claims of Necron power were true. The fact that the fluff doesn't show this happening means that those claims must be false. After all, which is more likely: that the Necrons could effortlessly end all non-Necron life but choose to kill stuff the hard way, or that Necrons simply aren't capable of doing the things they boast about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/12 21:43:31
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Psienesis wrote: ... until he gets Wrathed like Vandire did. You think the Sisters are going to follow Palpatine? The Templars?
Hell, Bjorn could be like "*sniff* Nope, not him."
Obviously no( except actually there might be an order or two that would follow him. Never know.)
It would some of the main populace, some less careful SM chapters, and guard regiments . That would be fooled not the inquisition, grey knights, etc.
It would be almost be as bad for 40k as the Horus Heresy was. It certainly would be for the Star Wars galaxy.
Remember chaos enjoys the fight as it is part of the great game they play. The fact that both sides were equally swelled with proponents from the star wars galaxy when it was discovered was a + in their eyes.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Well, most SM Chapters (not all, but most) don't worship the Emperor as a god. They really wouldn't care.
Two, the average battle-psyker or Librarian is leaps and bounds more powerful than Palpatine when it comes to doing magic tricks. For a guy supposedly the most powerful psyker to ever exist, Palpatine doesn't have the cred to pose as the Emperor Reborn.
Three, they have tests that can determine if someone is corrupted, as well as psykers that can simply yank the info out of someone's head.
And then, number four... the Custodes.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: If its a vs match with total cooperation of the 40k forces vs the same in Star Wars then Star Wars loses...
I think a crossover in Darth Vade Emperor Palpatine era Empire would bear much better results.
FYI. ( I've kinda mapped this out in my head. Palpatine would willingly become a daemon prince and half the Galactic Empire would fall into chaos as his servants and he would replace Failbaddon as the "True" Emperor of Mankind and create 14th Black Crusade.
Darth Vader would not allow himself to become a servant of chaos( as he does not want to replace palpatine with yet another master) but would seek an alliance with the IoM forces in order to overthrow the emperor with intentions of ruling it for himself ( of course lying and claiming imperial compliance.)
The Admech would agree to allow the star wars empire to use their own technology in exchange for the secrets to safe faster than light travel and various other tech.
Awesomeness ensues.
Of course they'd have to promise to purge every other species in the Star Wars universe. You know imperial truth and all that.
Hyperspace isn't guaranteed to be better than Warp Travel. There is Hyperspace in 40K, the Necrons have access to it, only they avoid it like the plague as it has been infested with Daemons.
If you can think of something brilliant that makes the Imperium look completely idiotic for not attempting, the answer is almost always "daemons".
Also, Palpatine in 40K is not a significantly notable individual. He reached his peak in Dark Empire where through a Sith Artifact he could unleash force storms that ravaged entire fleets... but this isn't even close to the power level of an Alpha Psyker. By this logic, every Alpha Psyker should instantly become a Daemon Prince if Palpatine's fairly humble powers in comparison were enough to warrant instantaneous exaltation. And better yet, he can't even control those force storms with any level of finesse. Remember he died thanks to one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/12 22:54:55
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Those do, actually. Sollex-pattern powersword. It does away with the physical blade entirely and has just a blade-shaped field of matter-destabilizing energy.
Ah, forgot about that! Still, it shouldn't count it as a lightsaber unless we count lasguns as blaster rifles in SW. Which I don't think we were doing. My point was that if certain devices in 40K are moot, why are SW stuff still legit?
Peregrine wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, I recall reading somewhere that Gauss isn't the beam going from the gun to the target, it's the beam going from the target to the gun, thereby preventing the overkill effect of going through other guys.
So why not aim at a target at the back of the formation of infantry?
You still need LOS? Or, it's just spess-magic which doesn't require knowledge of how it works, only that it does?
And besides, what stops the SW universe suffering the blatant handicaps Peregrine is putting on the 40k universe?
I'm not putting any handicaps on 40k, I'm just limiting 40k weapons to what they have demonstrated, not exaggerated fanboy claims about how awesome they are. And by that standard infantry gauss weapons are somewhat more effective than other 40k infantry weapons, but not orders of magnitude better. But if you want to claim that gauss weapons are magically 10,000 times better than their demonstrated firepower against guardsmen and just magically limit themselves to only killing a single guardsman per shot then I could just as easily claim that gauss magic only works against 40k targets. "It's magic, it does whatever I want it to" works both ways.
Have 40k weapons not demonstrated abilities that would utterly outclass whatever SW can throw at it? Yes. Necrons, Chaos, Tyranids. And that is assuming that the AM don't do it first.
Gauss has been described as "stripping a target down to nothing molecule by molecule, reducing it to its constituent atoms in a matter of seconds" and "known to hurt monstrous creatures that similar weapons have no hope of even scratching, and have also been documented tearing at the armour of even the most heavily armoured of tanks and starship hulls with ease". They are noted by the AdMech to be "a seeming mathematical impossibility". I think that would suffice?
If we want to use the "It's magic, it does whatever I want it to" approach, I could invalidate SW in exactly the same way. So let's not do that, shall we?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: Otherwise, Codex: Necrons would be a very short book: "One day, the Necrons woke up and ended all life in the galaxy. Now, the only sound heard amongst the dim stars is the screech of Gauss weapons as the mad Phaerons send endless tides of their nigh-immortal troops against their rivals. The end."
Well yes, that's exactly what it would be if the high-end claims of Necron power were true. The fact that the fluff doesn't show this happening means that those claims must be false. After all, which is more likely: that the Necrons could effortlessly end all non-Necron life but choose to kill stuff the hard way, or that Necrons simply aren't capable of doing the things they boast about.
World Engine and Orpheus Sector. Fine examples of Necrons steamrolling Imperial forces.
Many Necrons Lords are very reclusive, not taking advantage of their strength unless threatened. Others, like Nemesor Zahndrekh, don't see humanity as something to kill mercilessly, but treat them as equals.
There can be no denying that Necrons are leagues above SW forces. The War in Heaven is proof of this. Has any force in SW (and I would honestly like to know as it would be awesome) killed a race of Gods?
Wyzilla wrote: Hyperspace isn't guaranteed to be better than Warp Travel.
So the ability to cross the galaxy in a few hours (days at most) with no randomly misplaced (in space and/or time) ships isn't guaranteed to be better? That's a huge strategic advantage, allowing the Star Wars forces to put their fleets wherever they need to be and run circles around the 40k side.
If you can think of something brilliant that makes the Imperium look completely idiotic for not attempting, the answer is almost always "daemons".
So the Imperium doesn't design a new version of the LRBT with a proper suspension and more than an inch of ground clearance because of demons? Sorry, but the unavoidable conclusion is that the Imperium is really stupid.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Or, it's just spess-magic which doesn't require knowledge of how it works, only that it does?
And what it does is kill people a bit more effectively than a lasgun or bolter. The bizarre claims of "10,000 times more powerful" are entirely based on "how it works" arguments about Necron technology being clearly superior.
Gauss has been described as "stripping a target down to nothing molecule by molecule, reducing it to its constituent atoms in a matter of seconds" and "known to hurt monstrous creatures that similar weapons have no hope of even scratching, and have also been documented tearing at the armour of even the most heavily armoured of tanks and starship hulls with ease".
So what? Dead is dead, whether you're stripped down molecule by molecule or just incinerated by a laser shot. Whatever fancy technology might be behind those gauss shots the end result is roughly equivalent to everyone else's weapons.
World Engine and Orpheus Sector. Fine examples of Necrons steamrolling Imperial forces.
You mean the same Orpheus where the Necrons lost a battle to a suicide charge from a WWI army? If they were really as powerful as you claim then the DKoK would not have won that battle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/13 00:06:07
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
The Star Wars universe of fiction is premised upon, "factions that have the potential to conquer the entire galaxy", whereas the 40k universe is premised on "factions that have the potential to end all other sentient life in the galaxy". Where Star Wars antagonists are sociopathic megalomaniacs enshrined in the "Cult of Me", 40k antagonists are full-on genocidal psychopaths that just want to end life as we all know it. Hell, half of the protagonists are totally indifferent to the lives of the common folk.
In Star Wars, the bad guys use weapons of mass destruction to intimidate the rest of the galaxy to fall in line. In 40k, the bad guys use weapons of mass destruction to kill off the rest of the galaxy, so they don't have to worry about anyone falling in line.
The way the fluff is written, by the way, ultimately, the Necron will all wake up and this galaxy will no longer be at war (because they'll just kill everyone else), except perhaps the Eldar who will futz off somewhere in their fancy craftworlds and in the Webway. It might seem like a long time for them to wake up, but it's all in the relative scope of things. They've been asleep for millions of years, right? So what's another thousand or two of yawning.
I think to avoid needless arguments we should find a common ground between the SW universe and the 40k universe. If I had to throw my vote, I'd put it towards 40k but let's come up with a standard.
What time period are we talking about in both universes?
Who is participating in these battles? Heroes/Characters
How large are the estimated fleets? Ships/army forces
How formidable are the weapons?
Let's also stick to 'facts' regarding how powerful something is based on the agreed upon fluff and not speculative. For example: The Emperor winning an arm wrestling contest with Khorne because he's so l33t. There is no reference anywhere of that. It doesn't stand.
With that said let's come up with the 'grunts'/foot soldiers of each faction. Who would step forth?
IoM - Imperial Guard
Eldar - Guardians
Orks - Boyz
Tyranids - Guants
etc.
Star Wars
-Storm troopers
- Ewoks
You guys fill in the blank.
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
Also, I find it hilarious how Peregrine is foaming at the mouth over 40K's "WWI tactics' (when such armies are a literal drop in the ocean), when Star Wars does one even worse and is often caught practicing Napoleonic Warfare.
And this isn't even endemic to the EU. This pops up in the TCW, with only at the end of the war the Republic beginning to understand the concept of something called "cover".
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Wyzilla wrote: Hyperspace isn't guaranteed to be better than Warp Travel.
So the ability to cross the galaxy in a few hours (days at most) with no randomly misplaced (in space and/or time) ships isn't guaranteed to be better? That's a huge strategic advantage, allowing the Star Wars forces to put their fleets wherever they need to be and run circles around the 40k side.
And what if they can't use their hyperspace in the 40k universe? What then?
If you can think of something brilliant that makes the Imperium look completely idiotic for not attempting, the answer is almost always "daemons".
So the Imperium doesn't design a new version of the LRBT with a proper suspension and more than an inch of ground clearance because of demons? Sorry, but the unavoidable conclusion is that the Imperium is really stupid.
Or the AdMech are dicks. Also,
Spoiler:
"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology. They haven't been living on some fancy paradise planet since pre-Fall. Mars is an anarchic nightmare shithole the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometres of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is fethed. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.
The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find gak, nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are half the time self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.
If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently fethed with so that instead of a Lasgun power cell it's a fething grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all here? The fething Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seeking to kill you.
Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. The fragments of trillions of self-aware programs, flourishing during the Dark Age of Technology and shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, imprisoning the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better fething please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day gak. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Land Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the Manufactorum before they can be killed.
This is why they do not like ANYONE fething with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical it not be compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to feth with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall fethed everything up and the Heresy double-fethed it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.
This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Someone will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra materiel that can possibly be produced. Half your entire fething military might went rogue, smashed the half that stayed, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point with an army far larger. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.
This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.
Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder than it was during the Great Crusade.
Since some still don't get the idea, try this:
Build a library, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the real books anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?
Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-fething-where near it. Where the feth did they all come from, you swear to god there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war. The government fights a battle that destroys the planet against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process. The library is leveled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.
Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.
Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.
The Adeptus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city he needs to survive just a second longer.
The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single gak decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a gak life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die."
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: Or, it's just spess-magic which doesn't require knowledge of how it works, only that it does?
And what it does is kill people a bit more effectively than a lasgun or bolter. The bizarre claims of "10,000 times more powerful" are entirely based on "how it works" arguments about Necron technology being clearly superior.
Did you not read my evidence of Gauss Flayers, basic Necron weapons, stripping targets down on the molecular level? That seems rather more powerful than laser weapons and explosive bolt rounds.
Gauss has been described as "stripping a target down to nothing molecule by molecule, reducing it to its constituent atoms in a matter of seconds" and "known to hurt monstrous creatures that similar weapons have no hope of even scratching, and have also been documented tearing at the armour of even the most heavily armoured of tanks and starship hulls with ease".
So what? Dead is dead, whether you're stripped down molecule by molecule or just incinerated by a laser shot. Whatever fancy technology might be behind those gauss shots the end result is roughly equivalent to everyone else's weapons.
So humans are the only things fighting in this situation? And anything over that strength is useless? Right. So according to that logic, lascannons have the same strength as blaster rifles as they can both kill humans.
What makes Gauss better is that it can kill targets tougher than other rifles of a similar type, beating blaster rifles hands down.
World Engine and Orpheus Sector. Fine examples of Necrons steamrolling Imperial forces.
You mean the same Orpheus where the Necrons lost a battle to a suicide charge from a WWI army? If they were really as powerful as you claim then the DKoK would not have won that battle.
Meat grinder DKoK. There so many Kriegsmen and they were using a tactic which the Necrons would've deemed suicidal, so wouldn't have prepared for it. No force in SW can muster the suicidal nature to do what the DKoK did, and the manpower to do it.
Psienesis wrote: Boarding actions happen all the time in SW. The Tantive IV, the Endar Spire, the Esseles, the Black Talon... just to name a few.
That would be the rare case where a ship needs to be taken intact. Obviously the star destroyer could have killed the Tantive IV without much effort, but the goal was to capture a specific passenger alive. When the goal is to destroy an enemy ship (Endor, for example) Star Wars ships simply shoot each other until one side wins. Space marines, on the other hand, use boarding as a primary method of attacking the enemy even when the goal is simply to destroy the ship.
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Konrax wrote: Especially if getting weapons through powerful shielding.
Why are you assuming that boarding ships can break through shields when bullets/lasers/etc can't? Sending over a transport full of angry guys with chainsaws doesn't help very much if they just bounce off the shields.
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Kain wrote: Because then there's no point to the debate?
Sure there is. For example, a LRBT uses a conventional cannon and we can expect its shells to work just fine against targets from Star Wars. Refusing to grant all of your assumptions about how magic works just means that the Necrons won't be contributing much to this hypothetical war. And, again, not getting the "40k wins" answer that you want to have doesn't mean that there's no point to having the debate. A single Culture civilian transport effortlessly slaughters the entire 40k universe, but the fact that the outcome is a one-sided massacre doesn't mean that we can't have the debate.
Alternatively you could just abandon the "it's magic" claim and accept that gauss weapons are just somewhat more effective bolters/lasguns (based on their demonstrated effects), not magic guns that have 10,000 times the firepower of everything else but always neatly focus it on killing a single human instead of annihilating everything nearby and killing whole squads with a single shot.
Depends on the factors that make up shielding. I'm assuming that because the pods move at a much lower velocity and aren't energy based it will be ignored by shielding (common in 40k).
Star wars has no shielding so there is no debate there.
Star trek does and theirs I believe will allow no objects through, however their ships seem far more fragile once shields are down.
Difficult to say because a star trek shield and a 40k void shield seem to behave differently..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/13 12:07:40
Um yes Star Wars uses shielding on their ships that stop physical and energy forms of weaponry. What are you talking about?
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
The difference is that SW ships are practically made of glass once their shields drop, while wh40k ships still can take a beating after their shields drop.
As for boarding SW ships, teleporting will bypass SW shields.
Tyran wrote: The difference is that SW ships are practically made of glass once their shields drop, while wh40k ships still can take a beating after their shields drop.
As for boarding SW ships, teleporting will bypass SW shields.
Well they don't have any counter measures thats for sure to teleporting. The crews of the ships will be doing fine but once the imperial or whatever fleet the starwars fleets are facing would meet their ships would be torn apart by the fighters of the imperium which are are as large as normal starwars ships. Not to mention that the gravity wells that the imperial vessels would probably create would cause most of the starwars fleets to have to rapidly recalculate. Not to mention also that star ship battles in 40k are over hundreds of thousands of kilometers. As presented in battle field gothic, and the artwork yet again being shown to be propaganda while the battlefleet gothic battles are over kilometres while the starwars ships are up close and personal. Which is something the Imperium only does if it is completely desperate.
Not to also mention the Nova Cannons or the various weapons that a single ship in an imperial fleet has.
Also forgetting to mention the attack craft that are basically part of the arsenal of almost every single ship in the imperium having flight decks for various fighters. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Attack_Craft)
From Star Hawks to Fury Inteceptors to Shark Assualt Boats the imperiums defense network for defending their ships are various.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
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Tyran wrote: The difference is that SW ships are practically made of glass once their shields drop, while wh40k ships still can take a beating after their shields drop.
As for boarding SW ships, teleporting will bypass SW shields.
SW ships also engage each other at quite literally point blank range, relative to space. I mean, they can see each other out the viewports for crying out loud. Heck, sometimes they even come to within a few hundred feet.
40k ships engage each other at hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Interesting that the significantly automated Executor Star Destroyer still has three times the crew of the mostly pulley-power Mars-class Battlecruiser.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: Interesting that the significantly automated Executor Star Destroyer still has three times the crew of the mostly pulley-power Mars-class Battlecruiser.
What?
You mean apart from the fact that there is only three executor class star ships that the Imperial Empire has?
While there are more giant ships in the imperium such as the star forts, or the more ancient Cult Mechanicus worldships.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Furyou Miko wrote: Interesting that the significantly automated Executor Star Destroyer still has three times the crew of the mostly pulley-power Mars-class Battlecruiser.
Probably due to Galactic Empire ships counting troops among the crew. The GE doesn't separate the Navy from the Army in the same manner as the Imperium.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Furyou Miko wrote: Interesting that the significantly automated Executor Star Destroyer still has three times the crew of the mostly pulley-power Mars-class Battlecruiser.
What?
You mean apart from the fact that there is only three executor class star ships that the Imperial Empire has?
While there are more giant ships in the imperium such as the star forts, or the more ancient Cult Mechanicus worldships.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the number of crew it requires.
The Executor is three times the size of the Mars class. You'd expect it to need three times the crew... if both ships used a similar level of automation.
However, far more of the Executor's systems are going to be automated than the Mars', because the Galactic Empire employs droids and targeting computers and automated loading sequences, while the Mars class does most everything by slave labour.
Wyzilla probably has a point regarding troops - the Mars' crew probably includes its fighter pilots, but the Mars isn't a troop transport and doesn't have a complement of marines aboard, while the Executor has a dedicated security/landing force aboard.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
