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I'm not sure how to feel about this.

Fluffwise, Scouts are somewhere between humans and Space Marines. Now the thing is, on one hand certain fluff sources say experience and the lack of power armor are the only two things that differ from a scout and an actual space marine, as the Scouts have already undergone all the surgical prodecures that make them super human. On the other hand, other fluff sources still see scouts as post-surgery human recruits that have to prove themselves before becoming a full space marine.

And while we already have "mere" humans with WS4 and BS4 (see Kasrkin/Stormtroopers), it would make little sense for trans-humans to suck more in combat.

Yet, if you accept the new statline, then armor is the only thing scouts lack as they are identical to a space marine in all other aspects.

======

That was the fluff part. Now onto the game design argument.

I find the rise of WS and BS with no changes to point cost worrying. Scouts had always been low damage output models, but nobody used to complain that they suck. Scouts were still a popular SM troop choice. Sure, BS3 snipers are meh; investing into the odd heavy weapon at BS3 (especially the 1 shot missile launcher) was also a meh idea, and cc-scouts that might get hit on 3s by the enemy due to their WS3 was also somewhat off putting.

But now that they are WS4 & BS4, aren't they hands down better than tacticals? Yeah, for 3 more points you get a 3+ armor save and access to more heavy weapons and special weapons too, but you lose your infiltrate/outflank ability, you lose the ability to purchase camo cloaks, you lose the ability to swap your bolters for the long range rending sniper rifle, and you lose access to the land speeder storm.

A Space Marine scout armed with a sniper rifle and a camo cloak hiding behind 4+ cover is the same points cost as a tactical marine, but has the superior weapon, and the same save as a space marine in the open, but obviously doesnt get affected by the AP of weapons. If the space marine is behind 4+ cover and gets shot with a low ap weapon, then the scout has the better save. Only in the rare situation of being hit by ignores cover weapons will the space marine have a better chance of survival.

In any case, what irks me most is that the relatively new SW and BA codexes how have inferior scouts.

It makes sense. The only thing separating them from Tactical, Assault, or Devastators Marines is the fact they lack the Black Carapace. They have undergone most, if not all, of the training at that point.

no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.

But WS5 Orks to make up for BS1, right? We'z love a good fight!

As a space wolf player this kind of upsets me as it takes away. From our special scouts but leaves ourat reduced "claws" units well reduced for what is now, no apparent reason.

However as I can't actually stand to play the game anymore and won't likely do so anytime in the forseeable future, it really doesn't effect me.

 Frozocrone wrote:
But WS5 Orks to make up for BS1, right? We'z love a good fight!

Nah, remove WS as well. The WS table hardly matters most of the time so just make melee attacks hit on a flat 4+ for everyone.

To be honest I don't think it was necessary, and as already said kind of puts the boot into Space Wolves Blood Claws and Blood Angels Scouts.

If they wanted to improve Scout shooting, just say that sniper rifles always hit on a 3+ unless the wielder's BS is high enough to make it less than that.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
But WS5 Orks to make up for BS1, right? We'z love a good fight!

Nah, remove WS as well. The WS table hardly matters most of the time so just make melee attacks hit on a flat 4+ for everyone.

remove melee.New Melee would be both models shoting in base to base, dudes stupid enough to run with a sword or an ax would strike at lowered Initative, as a bullet or laser beam is faster then even an eldars arm. Add some rules for crazy dudes spraying full auto at close range and others being disiplined enough to target at short range or when charged.And marines would get their head shot thing they do in every book, precision shot when shoting in melee. Super powerful but slow melee units would still find some use as a str8 or 10 i1 would do more damage then a str 3 or 4 personal weapon.

I dunno, I'm of two minds about it.

On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".

On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.

 Peregrine wrote:
no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.

I actually couldn't agree more.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Fluffwise, Scouts are somewhere between humans and Space Marines. Now the thing is, on one hand certain fluff sources say experience and the lack of power armor are the only two things that differ from a scout and an actual space marine, as the Scouts have already undergone all the surgical prodecures that make them super human. On the other hand, other fluff sources still see scouts as post-surgery human recruits that have to prove themselves before becoming a full space marine.

This highlights the D6 issue of 40k. There's a big difference between BS4 and BS3, (16.7% effectiveness), and Scouts should be enhanced humans. The codex does say that they have the bio-enhancements, so they should at least be a LITTLE better than Guard But it's not like you can have BS 3.5

They are still Space Marines, and in my small mind, I simply choose to think that the only difference between Scouts and Tacticals (or Devastators or ASM) is their training and battle role, rather than their ability or bio-engineering.

Of course, this has nothing to do with their points value. That's a whole other subject!

I hope wolf scouts get a points drop in the next space wolves book

 statu wrote:
I hope wolf scouts get a points drop in the next space wolves book

How long ago was Wolves book now? Not even 1 year, right? May have a while to go :(

Just think how long it's gonna be for Blood Angels to see BS4WS4 scouts

 Talys wrote:

 statu wrote:
I hope wolf scouts get a points drop in the next space wolves book

How long ago was Wolves book now? Not even 1 year, right? May have a while to go :(

Just think how long it's gonna be for Blood Angels to see BS4WS4 scouts

At the rate of this codex cycle, 19 months

No it wasn't justified as the army was already ridiculous and now it makes Eldar look mid tier

SGTPozy wrote:
... Eldar ... mid tier

How this two things even in one sentence? lol.

I also see thsi more as return to old scouts, but i think they should have made them like 11 ppm maybe? They are much better then tacticals with exception of avalibility of special weapons. Maybe if it was bonus of 10th company task force formation it would be more justifiable.

I think it's a stupid idea, and I think units in the IG Dex that are BS/Ws 4 are generally a bad idea too. I also think Guardians and any Eldar platform with Guardian crew should be Bs/Ws 3 also. I think untrained humans, like Chaos Cultists generally, should be Bs/Ws 2. I really hate the drift away from lower stats, as I feel it adds to the overwhelming firepower of the game that is not nearly as much fun to play.

Rules/Balance wise. No idea.

I agree about the d6 nature of the game. I wish there was more room, but there is not. But I welcome their return to BS/WS4.

One thing to remember is there are a number of ways to ignore cover, and there is a chunk of AP4 stuff out there. It’s all fun and games sniping from the woods, then someone with a heavy flamer comes over, and it’s BBQ time.

It puts scouts back where they were. It makes scout armies a bit more viable. And note one of their old uses is gone out the window since poison doesn't work on Wraithknights anymore.

Fluffwise, yeah they aren't full marines yet but they haven't been partying in the barracks for the last five to ten years waiting to get a black carapace either. I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants. Makes even more sense for chapters that essentially use their scouts as special forces teams. And it brings them on par with 30k Recon teams which were the same thing but with the option of wearing power armor.

Col. Dash wrote:
I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants.

That's nice and all, but aren't the power armours supposed to augment you in some way? Because if you're trying to make fluff reasons for the rules here, then the power armour now is basically a heavier kevlar armour. It's not augmenting targeting or fighting prowess.

Col. Dash wrote:
It puts scouts back where they were. It makes scout armies a bit more viable. And note one of their old uses is gone out the window since poison doesn't work on Wraithknights anymore.

Col. Dash is right in my mind. Scouts always used to be WS/BS 4, and when they went down to 3 I know that Scouts really suffered. Now, their points cost has always been lower than Tacticals, and this change doesn't really change their battlefield role much (infiltrating/scouting ObSec units), but it does bring them in line with "4's across the board" that is Space Marine standard. I doubt this change will ultimately make a huge impact on the game.

 Peregrine wrote:
no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.

This.

 Purifier wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants.

That's nice and all, but aren't the power armours supposed to augment you in some way? Because if you're trying to make fluff reasons for the rules here, then the power armour now is basically a heavier kevlar armour. It's not augmenting targeting or fighting prowess.

Power armor isn't why space marines have BS4/WS4. Otherwise you're arguing that IG veterans are better at shooting than a marine.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants.

That's nice and all, but aren't the power armours supposed to augment you in some way? Because if you're trying to make fluff reasons for the rules here, then the power armour now is basically a heavier kevlar armour. It's not augmenting targeting or fighting prowess.

Power armor isn't why space marines have BS4/WS4. Otherwise you're arguing that IG veterans are better at shooting than a marine.

My point exactly. Don't try to put fluff logic into the statlines. It has no place there.

Scouts should have stayed WS/BS3.

An upgrade (1ppm?) Making them WS/BS4 (for when the fluff demands it) would have been cool too.

(Same thoughts about Guardians, too.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't read too into it.

Any random Vindicare - the *sniper* - is more skilled at swordplay as Jain freaking Zar. Autarchs are better at combat than Exarchs.

Vet Sarges go from 1W to 3W overnight when the old Captain dies.

Unfortunately, a lot of stats are quite off.

Scouts should have stayed at WS/BS 4. They should also cost at least thirteen points.

Does this mean DA scouts will be BS5?

Now Scout Bikers are actually pretty enticing, so that is a good side effect of the boost, I guess.

When the scale is 1-10, but 90% of units are either BS3 or BS4, you know D6 sucks.

Could go SM Bikes as Troops and then Scout Bikes as FA tbh