How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?

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**Furyou Miko**

Kanluwen wrote:

You might want to go and actually read up on Cadians then; because they are the very definition of "volunteer forces".

Uh, what?

If you're born on Cadia, you are a member of the military. There is no such thing as a Cadian civilian. There are simply Cadian soldiers currently engaged in support occupations.

**ClassicCarraway**

I like the change. Marines already had too many useless units before (Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Scouts, Scout Bikes, Non-TH/SS Terminators, Dreadnaughts, Chaplains). In order to make them strong enough to compete in the post-Necron environment, some units had to be upgraded.

Granted, I would have preferred it have been terminators, but I'll take Scouts suddenly being more than just that unit that eats up the last 70 points and does nothing but babysit an objective nobody is near. Sniper scouts will finally be useful, and assault scouts will finally pose a threat instead of being laughed at. Bolter scouts are still very MEH, and I'd rather spend the extra points on tactical marines for the increased durability, special weapons, and transport options.

**Kanluwen**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

You might want to go and actually read up on Cadians then; because they are the very definition of "volunteer forces".

Uh, what?

If you're born on Cadia, you are a member of the military. There is no such thing as a Cadian civilian. There are simply Cadian soldiers currently engaged in support occupations.

"Volunteer forces" are used to describe militaries where the soldiers are part of a profession and actually want to be there.

For Cadians, being a member of a Shock Troop regiment(or even better--a Kasrkin regiment) is a Big Deal.

**Furyou Miko**

A big deal as opposed to what, exactly?

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Compared to just being in the PDF. Not ever Cadian gets to leave Cadia to fight the Emperor's Wars, most remain on world to defend it.

**Furyou Miko**

But the Cadian PDF are on constant war footing and are a Guard-level military force in their own right. They are not volunteer soldiers.

**EmpNortonII**

Furyou Miko wrote:
But the Cadian PDF are on constant war footing and are a Guard-level military force in their own right. They are not volunteer soldiers.

Ya know, that seems like a pretty simple concept to grasp, but after having it repeated back already, I think you're wasting your typing on him.

**luky7dayz**

I really dislike the scout boost. Now there is no point to take tactical marines. If I wanted the special or heavy weapons I'd just take it on devastator squads or other squads. If I want the transports I'd just take it on assault squads for FREE. and if i need uber mobility id just take bike troops. Tact squads are now useless.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Furyou Miko wrote:But the Cadian PDF are on constant war footing and are a Guard-level military force in their own right. They are not volunteer soldiers.

Im not saying they are, you asked a question and I provided an answer. Given a choice, each Cadian would rather be in one of the off world Regiments rather than on Cadia itself, since for the most part major incursions are few and far between. Thirteen Major incursions infact, and not all of them aimed at Cadia in the first place.

EmpNortonII wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
But the Cadian PDF are on constant war footing and are a Guard-level military force in their own right. They are not volunteer soldiers.

Ya know, that seems like a pretty simple concept to grasp, but after having it repeated back already, I think you're wasting your typing on him.

For one, Im not the one arguing that they are, check who you are referring to mate. Secondly your are the one who spurred this pointless debate by bringing in a matter that had little bearing on the point, and have also refused to see the FLUFF support for why Scouts would have the stats they do. Infact you frequently seem to dismiss anything that isn't in support of your opinion.

An all volunteer force does have it's benefits, but you know what, so to does a mandatory service force. In the mandatory service force after serving your X amount of years (or chosing to remain in service), it is easier for the military to bring in more soldiers as needed incase of an emergency as the replacements would already have training and would only need a limited refreshment course to get them back up to speed, depending on years since leaving the Force. Even then you still have the basics and a longer training still wouldnt be as long as training new Volunteers.

**Ghazkuul**

Peregrine wrote:
no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.

and as per usual the GW community throws Orks out of the picture as irrelevant

**darkcloak**

Makumba wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Frozocrone wrote:
But WS5 Orks to make up for BS1, right? We'z love a good fight!

Nah, remove WS as well. The WS table hardly matters most of the time so just make melee attacks hit on a flat 4+ for everyone.

remove melee.New Melee would be both models shoting in base to base, dudes stupid enough to run with a sword or an ax would strike at lowered Initative, as a bullet or laser beam is faster then even an eldars arm. Add some rules for crazy dudes spraying full auto at close range and others being disiplined enough to target at short range or when charged.And marines would get their head shot thing they do in every book, precision shot when shoting in melee. Super powerful but slow melee units would still find some use as a str8 or 10 i1 would do more damage then a str 3 or 4 personal weapon.

No idea what this guy was trying to say.

Buffed Scouts suck. Space Wolves have elite scouts. I never let them live through a game. You think I want you to have bs4 scouts with sniper rifles? Nope! Pie plate!

Whatever though. New codex sucks decurion balls. Have fun!

**Ghazkuul**

as for the rules change, just taking a quick glance at the Eldar's new Codex and im going to say that judging by that the SM Scouts should also have an extra wound to put them in line with the Eldar buff.

**Martel732**

Yarium wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Sorry, I'm confused. You first say that 40k shouldn't be as granular as an RPG... then you say that it should be more granular by making the WS table go from 2+ to 6+.

In any case, I'm not sure that solves anything - especially when you start applying it elsewhere. Surely the major problem of 40k in terms of using different values (rather than hovering around 4 for most stats) is that even +2 or -2 can quickly make a unit either too tough or so fragile as to be worthless.

Out of interest, what problems would d10s cause?

I don't think changing the WS table makes the game more granular. Everything else in the game already goes from 2+ to 6+, so I don't see why to-hit rolls in close combat should be any different. If anything, it would help new players by allowing for more consistency. I can't tell you how many times I've had newer players think they should be hitting on better than 3+, or worse than 4+ (they don't realize you need to be REALLY high WS for a 5+ to happen).

I also agree with AllSeeingSkink, a simple 2+ to 6+ isn't really enough on its own, but is easily expanded. Things that modify, rerolls, modified rerolls, bonuses on certain numbers, penalties on other numbers... there's a lot of room in the randomization of d6. Take a look at a simple to-wound roll. Pretty standard normally, but look how much different it becomes when a weapon is poisoned, when the attack has rending, or shred, or is a Harlequin kiss of death, or is a rad-rifle from a Skitarii, or is rerolled with Da Lucky Stikk. It's something so simple, but there's a lot of extra ways to modify it.

Finally, there's a pretty obvious huge problem switching dice systems causes. Everything's written for d6's right now. To change up would mean there'd need to be an update of EVERYTHING - which would be slow, expensive, and cause no small amount of grief for the players and GW. Imagine if legalisation passed that made it illegal to use cell phones, and all the cell companies had to immediately end service. Your phone suddenly only works when plugged into a wall outlet again. I mean, yeah, we'd get by, but some people only own cell phones and would have to change. There'd be buying of new cell phones. Cancelling and changing of phone plans. Samsung, Apple, etc... they all have to pull their devices and put out new ones fast. And you, the customer are stuck in the middle. Like, you could do it, but the logistics of it would be traumatic to the economy and to your own life.

The game needs rebuilt from the ground up anyway.

**SilverSaint**

Ghazkuul wrote:
as for the rules change, just taking a quick glance at the Eldar's new Codex and im going to say that judging by that the SM Scouts should also have an extra wound to put them in line with the Eldar buff.

Then all the new Eldar players will become new Space Marine players!

**EmpNortonII**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

For one, Im not the one arguing that they are, check who you are referring to mate. Secondly your are the one who spurred this pointless debate by bringing in a matter that had little bearing on the point, and have also refused to see the FLUFF support for why Scouts would have the stats they do. Infact you frequently seem to dismiss anything that isn't in support of your opinion.

An all volunteer force does have it's benefits, but you know what, so to does a mandatory service force. In the mandatory service force after serving your X amount of years (or chosing to remain in service), it is easier for the military to bring in more soldiers as needed incase of an emergency as the replacements would already have training and would only need a limited refreshment course to get them back up to speed, depending on years since leaving the Force. Even then you still have the basics and a longer training still wouldnt be as long as training new Volunteers.

1) What I said about scouts was, quite literally, "maybe" as to whether or not it was justified. It all depends on how much you think powered armor improves a Space Marine's performance. If it does nothing or next to nothing to improve accuracy, the buff can be justified. If powered armor is supposed to make someone a better shooter, then it is not, since most of the jump to BS4 is justified by the targeting computers and superior firing stability provided by the armor.

2) If you don't think that GW changed this because of the Eldar Codex and its absurd amount of BS4+, you're smoking crack. GW has shown, repeatedly, that it doesn't care to make a game consistent with fluff (or one that is balanced, for that matter). They're trying to sell scout models, plain and simple, and to boost their best-selling faction.

... and that the primary benefit of a non-volunteer force is lots of expendable bodies is totally true. It does not, however, lead to the average soldier being more dedicated than his volunteer counterpart, no matter how good his indoctrination is. The Imperium clearly realizes this, it just doesn't care how many lives it wastes on meaningless objectives.

**Wyzilla**

The only difference between a Scout and a full ranking Brother is the Black Carapace and experience. I'd say that weapon skill should have remained the same (more or less representing that it hurts to go up against Astartes, even neophytes, in melee), but as the Scout hasn't gone through the Devastator Companies, should have stayed BS3.

**Zewrath**

Peregrine wrote:
no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.

Although not a fan of your personality, your do have a talent of hitting the nail on the head. Couldn't agree more with this.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

EmpNortonII wrote:

1) What I said about scouts was, quite literally, "maybe" as to whether or not it was justified. It all depends on how much you think powered armor improves a Space Marine's performance. If it does nothing or next to nothing to improve accuracy, the buff can be justified. If powered armor is supposed to make someone a better shooter, then it is not, since most of the jump to BS4 is justified by the targeting computers and superior firing stability provided by the armor.

2) If you don't think that GW changed this because of the Eldar Codex and its absurd amount of BS4+, you're smoking crack. GW has shown, repeatedly, that it doesn't care to make a game consistent with fluff (or one that is balanced, for that matter). They're trying to sell scout models, plain and simple, and to boost their best-selling faction.

While it could have something to do with the Eldar buff to BS4, the Scouts being BS and WS4 is something that had existed in atleast 3rd and 4th Editions, at least until it was changed for no apparent reason in. Also I dont recall a single time in the fluff where a Marines accuracy is thanks to his power armor, its always the skill of the man shooting.

It does not, however, lead to the average soldier being more dedicated than his volunteer counterpart, no matter how good his indoctrination is.

Thats a gross generalization of people, and a large underestimate of the number of Volunteers that didn't join out of any desire to serve only out of a desire to reap the rewards. I can't tell you how many times I heard people say "I never joined the military to fight wars."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyzilla wrote:
The only difference between a Scout and a full ranking Brother is the Black Carapace and experience. I'd say that weapon skill should have remained the same (more or less representing that it hurts to go up against Astartes, even neophytes, in melee), but as the Scout hasn't gone through the Devastator Companies, should have stayed BS3.

They dont learn to shoot in the Devastator Companies, they learn to shoot as a Scout, hence SNIPERS. Which they shouldn't even be if they are the newest least trained guys.

**Exergy**

Vaktathi wrote:
I dunno, I'm of two minds about it.

On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".

On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.

Guardians and all eldar vehicles moving to BS4 made no sense to me. Conscript Eldar apparently have the same WS and BS as warrior eldar who spend millenia honing their skills.

**ansacs**

I actually like the buff. Scout armies are interesting to play as and against. They are not highly abusive and the BS4 will actually make little to no actual difference as the sarge w/ combi weapon usually did most of the shooting damage for the unit. The bolters are still just bolters...how many times have you honestly went

those bolter tactical marines just wiped me out!!! Never. TAC marines get the majority of their damage from the plasma or melta guns and combi weapon on the sarge.

Now the WS 4 might end up being a bigger buff in some respects. Going from being hit on a 3+ to hit on a 4+ means that many units will take an extra turn or two to kill the unit. This buff also makes it easier to land attacks back on WS3 units, which are becoming more common thanks to adeptus mechanicus.

As for the pts cost. People were constantly complaining about how under powered TAC marines and scouts were for the past decade. TAC marines have a variety of stealth buffs from doctrines and various formations while scouts gained a direct boost to WS and BS. I have been playing with TL-bolters (so 75% chance to hit rather than 66% from BS4) from sentinels of terra for years now and rather than making scout armies overpowering it really only increases the damage output enough to make them not complete wet noodles. The vast majority of the damage and utility of scouts is in positioning, tar pitting, combi weapon + meltabomb sarges, and melee krak grenades.

WS3 BS3 actually gained a whole series of new units in the last month so there is definitely some variance in 40K. If you include Forgeworld there are even a significant number of WS BS 2 units.

**BlaxicanX**

Exergy wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
I dunno, I'm of two minds about it.

On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".

On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.

Guardians and all eldar vehicles moving to BS4 made no sense to me. Conscript Eldar apparently have the same WS and BS as warrior eldar who spend millenia honing their skills.

That conscript Eldar could have been an Eldar warrior for millenia before switching paths and becoming a chef.

Eldar switch paths on a whim so long as they do it before getting lost on the path and becoming an exarch, so the idea that a Guardian will consistently have less combat experience than an aspect warrior is fallacious.

**MarsNZ**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
I dunno, I'm of two minds about it.

On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".

On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.

Guardians and all eldar vehicles moving to BS4 made no sense to me. Conscript Eldar apparently have the same WS and BS as warrior eldar who spend millenia honing their skills.
That conscript Eldar could have been an Eldar warrior for millenia before switching paths and becoming a chef.

Eldar switch paths on a whim so long as they do it before getting lost on the path and becoming an exarch, so the idea that a Guardian will consistently have less combat experience than an aspect warrior is fallacious.

And a Guardsman may have been a keen hunter before he got conscripted... BS4 Guardsmen justified?

**BlaxicanX**

How is that even a remotely logical comparison?

**Izural**

I like the change. They're still S3T4 IIRC, with 4+ save and the weapon options are still meh.

Here's the way I looked at it.

Are Space Marine Scouts equal to an imperial guardsman in training and augments?
No.
BS4 makes sense.

**Zewrath**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
I dunno, I'm of two minds about it.

On the one hand, it's unfortunate to see how anything below BS4 is increasingly seen as simply unacceptable and everything in any army that see's itself as any more "elite" than IG getting boosted to BS4...largely just "because".

On the other hand, there's good justification for Scouts being WS4/BS4, they are supposedly Space Marines in every manner but having the Black Carapace for Power Armor, and had WS4/BS4 up until 5E (unlike Guardians who *always* had WS3/BS3 until 6E) so it's more a return to their "original" stats.

Guardians and all eldar vehicles moving to BS4 made no sense to me. Conscript Eldar apparently have the same WS and BS as warrior eldar who spend millenia honing their skills.
That conscript Eldar could have been an Eldar warrior for millenia before switching paths and becoming a chef.

Eldar switch paths on a whim so long as they do it before getting lost on the path and becoming an exarch, so the idea that a Guardian will consistently have less combat experience than an aspect warrior is fallacious.

But didn't they lose all their talents of their former path as soon as they shifted? Or am I remembering something wrong here?

**pelicaniforce**

That's always been kind of the case and kind of not.

It makes sense that they'd keep the BS/WS but not the special rules like bs2 snap shots or infiltrate. The profile skills are easy to retain because they don't lose the coordination and muscle memory. The special rules are the things they have to deliberately assume a murderer's mentality for. I think it's fine for what it is, it doesn't make people take guardians, at any rate.

The premise of this thread is preposterous. There's a good post up the thread, that bs4 scouts are terrible. Their weapons are not really good against most things, and if you do want to kill them it is really easy to get ap4 ignores cover these days.

**Saber**

Back in Second Edition Scouts were WS4 BS3 S4 T3. I rather liked that statline.

**Ashiraya**

I like WS/BS4.

**EmpNortonII**

Izural wrote:
Here's the way I looked at it.

Are Space Marine Scouts equal to an imperial guardsman in training and augments?
No.
BS4 makes sense.

That sounds like an argument to drop Guardsmen to BS2.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Thats a gross generalization of people, and a large underestimate of the number of Volunteers that didn't join out of any desire to serve only out of a desire to reap the rewards. I can't tell you how many times I heard people say "I never joined the military to fight wars."

Those people join the Army, Air Force, Coast Guard, or Navy.

No one who wants to reap benefits without the drawbacks signs with the Marines, because it is easier to join another branch for the same or better benefits.

I always figured the Imperial Navy served the same function as America's less-than-awesome branches.

**Crazyterran**

I for one welcome our new scout overlords.