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Suprised no one has asked it yet.

The formation with 2 demi companies and an auxiliary that allows free transports....

Will TO's allow this, since it essentially allows 400-600 free points to a list.

In its defense, the old Blood Angels book where you rolled for Death Company, you could get an extra 200 points in wargear.

Love to know opinions on the matter ( and so I know if I should start playing mine to get practice in).

Why wouldn't they?

Ad-mech get entirely free wargear with one of their formations.
Eldar are Eldar

This is the way things are now.

It really sucks for other books that either haven't been updated or especially those that got updated but missed out on having mega-formations with ridic bonuses. (Or just a flat out ridic book like eldar.)

I still feel like tournies would do well to just nix formations. We'd still have eldar, but at least we can all fight it out to see who comes in "1st non-eldar" place.

A points based system is there to get approximately equal armies fighting. Free wargear formations are cute but break the whole point of set point values in the first place.

You can either disallow free wargear or put a cap on the amount of free wargear, but it shouldnt be unregulated.

 Iechine wrote:
A points based system is there to get approximately equal armies fighting. Free wargear formations are cute but break the whole point of set point values in the first place.

You can either disallow free wargear or put a cap on the amount of free wargear, but it shouldnt be unregulated.

On the flip side of the debate, one can argue that rather than lower point costs across the board, or strengthen units, the free wargear is there to rebalance an army in the current meta.

The "point based system" went out the window with summoning. Resources are no longer limited by the point value set for anyone. Even Tyranids have recycling formations (i.e. free points) and Necrons get to birth baby scarabs. Might as well get used to it

Sure, but you have to work to get the summoned units (and highly risk periling), recycled bugs come back on from board edge, etc. Having literally hundreds of points of wargear from the start without doing anything to 'work' for it is the same as having a special rule stating "You may take 800 additional points once you and your opponent agree to the points limit".

Not sure how I feel about "free" transports. (Most people don't take them right now other than pods, so seeing some would be cool), but point costs in 40k are a joke (as far as being meaningful to balance in any way), so that is a terrible argument for allowing or disallowing anything.

 Iechine wrote:
"You may take 800 additional points once you and your opponent agree to the points limit".

More Like;

"You may take 660 (max reasonable) extra points if you give up the vast majority of your army building flexibility and take the blandest units in the codex that aren't the optimal units for the game. We're giving you a handicap."

General Hobbs wrote:


Suprised no one has asked it yet.

The formation with 2 demi companies and an auxiliary that allows free transports....

Will TO's allow this, since it essentially allows 400-600 free points to a list.

In its defense, the old Blood Angels book where you rolled for Death Company, you could get an extra 200 points in wargear.

Love to know opinions on the matter ( and so I know if I should start playing mine to get practice in).

I know in my geographic region event organizers tend to impose many restrictions to army builds:

* No LOW

* Strict limits on number of detachments (usually based on size of games) (which formations are considered)

* additional comp. restrictions ("Highlander comp" seems very common in my area for some reason...)

Most tournaments don't allow for duplicate formations or detachments.

General Hobbs wrote:


Suprised no one has asked it yet.

The formation with 2 demi companies and an auxiliary that allows free transports....

Will TO's allow this, since it essentially allows 400-600 free points to a list.

In its defense, the old Blood Angels book where you rolled for Death Company, you could get an extra 200 points in wargear.

Love to know opinions on the matter ( and so I know if I should start playing mine to get practice in).

While I disagree with it the ITC restriction on no duplicate formations COULD make the 2 demi company formation illegal based on the wording. If it is a single formation then it would be cool under ITC, if it is a benefit you gain from taking two formations, ie "If you take two demi-company formations you gain blah blah blah..." then the ITC ruling on duplicate formations would apply and it would be a no go in ITC formatted events.

It's a single detachment composed of 2 of the same formation. Adepticon (and possibly ITC) have taken the stance for some reason that even if they are formations inside a single detachment that you can't duplicate. Even though detachment wise you've only got a single detachment on the table, not 2+ formations.

"An army may not have a duplicate of any Detachment.
Note: This includes “Decurion Style” Detachments which are comprised of multiple datasheets and Formations. They may not take duplicate Formations within the Detachment,"

To disallow the space marine company detachment your assuming points are balanced.
But even assuming the point system is balanced somewhat.
Endless swarm, summoning, ad mech/skitarri/knight white dwarf formation, blood Angels free weapons formation, and Eldar free upgrade formation all do the same thing.

In other words it doesn't matter tournament organizers only need to step in when a particular unit or formation is extremely unbalanced.

 greggles wrote:
"An army may not have a duplicate of any Detachment.
Note: This includes “Decurion Style” Detachments which are comprised of multiple datasheets and Formations. They may not take duplicate Formations within the Detachment,"

Yep, this.

In a shameless plug, I have an idea about how to balance formations in organized play over in the Proposed Rules section: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/652033.page

List of things to baninate:

Battle Brothers
Eldar
Forge World
Lords of War (super heavies and GMC)
Psychic Phase
Eldar

Did I forget anything ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
List of things to baninate:

Battle Brothers
Eldar
Forge World
Lords of War (super heavies and GMC)
Psychic Phase
Eldar

Did I forget anything ?

Necrons, Tau, Space Marines, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons, Harlequins, Mechanicus/Skitarri. After that Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights, Sister of Battle, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Inquisition and Assassins, Chaos Pace Marines, Orks, Formations, Detachments, Force Organization Charts, and the core rulebook.

Ban one, and you ban them all.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
List of things to baninate:

Battle Brothers
Eldar
Forge World
Lords of War (super heavies and GMC)
Psychic Phase
Eldar

Did I forget anything ?

Necrons, Tau, Space Marines, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons, Harlequins, Mechanicus/Skitarri. After that Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights, Sister of Battle, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Inquisition and Assassins, Chaos Pace Marines, Orks, Formations, Detachments, Force Organization Charts, and the core rulebook.

Ban one, and you ban them all.

Dude. You can't let Dozer Blades troll you.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
List of things to baninate:

Battle Brothers
Eldar
Forge World
Lords of War (super heavies and GMC)
Psychic Phase
Eldar

Did I forget anything ?

Necrons, Tau, Space Marines, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons, Harlequins, Mechanicus/Skitarri. After that Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights, Sister of Battle, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Inquisition and Assassins, Chaos Pace Marines, Orks, Formations, Detachments, Force Organization Charts, and the core rulebook.

Ban one, and you ban them all.

Dude. You can't let Dozer Blades troll you.

Who says I wasn't trolling? Have you seen my signature?

Was it a troll or just simply a feeling of frustration ...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Was it a troll or just simply a feeling of frustration ...

Why not both

Post a link to a batrep where this formation steamrolls over an eldar scatbike list and I'll either agree with you or just cry tears of joy, not sure which yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note, I think there are so many houserules in tournaments that it is possible that we have missed any balancing efforts that GW have been trying to implement.

Who knows that if infinite detachments were allowed as per the BRB that eldar wouldn't be top dog?

Maybe summon lists would work against Tau?

Who knows?

I think the current Meta is the fault of anyone whos whined about this that or the other thing.

At this point honestly, lets have an open tournament format where anything in the BRB and forgeworld is a full go and see who comes out on top?

The lists would be so varied it would be friggen awesome!

 Dust wrote:
Why wouldn't they?

Ad-mech get entirely free wargear with one of their formations.
Eldar are Eldar

This is the way things are now.

They still won't let me play two harvest formations because its not fair how is this lany more fair?

We should take all the houserules out, have a tournament without them and then let the chips fall where they may and work from the ground up...I bet you that the houserules that would develop from that would be different then they are now.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Post a link to a batrep where this formation steamrolls over an eldar scatbike list and I'll either agree with you or just cry tears of joy, not sure which yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note, I think there are so many houserules in tournaments that it is possible that we have missed any balancing efforts that GW have been trying to implement.

Who knows that if infinite detachments were allowed as per the BRB that eldar wouldn't be top dog?

Maybe summon lists would work against Tau?

Who knows?

I think the current Meta is the fault of anyone whos whined about this that or the other thing.

At this point honestly, lets have an open tournament format where anything in the BRB and forgeworld is a full go and see who comes out on top?

The lists would be so varied it would be friggen awesome!

I agree with this guy by the way. If you go to a tournament and complain because a legal list is "too strong" the TO's should do nothing. It's no ones fault for being better than you. If your best army list isn't competitive at the moment don't blame broken rules, make a better list. This is a long hobby so don't get down just because your army isn't competitive this year. It could be worse you could be orks and be non competitive for eternity.

Space Marine always have massive potential for example yet because there are so many the bad players who always lose make it seem like the army wasn't already really strong.

Duplicate formations are banned from a bunch which hurts necron a lot, so you can only bring unit of flayed ones/deathmarks with decurion?? Seems pretty weird.Or is it just good formations?

jakejackjake wrote:

I agree with this guy by the way. If you go to a tournament and complain because a legal list is "too strong" the TO's should do nothing. It's no ones fault for being better than you. If your best army list isn't competitive at the moment don't blame broken rules, make a better list. This is a long hobby so don't get down just because your army isn't competitive this year. It could be worse you could be orks and be non competitive for eternity.

Space Marine always have massive potential for example yet because there are so many the bad players who always lose make it seem like the army wasn't already really strong.

Duplicate formations are banned from a bunch which hurts necron a lot, so you can only bring unit of flayed ones/deathmarks with decurion?? Seems pretty weird.Or is it just good formations?

Or you know the other guy is richer than you can can chase the meta....which is the problem with this game to begin with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
We should take all the houserules out, have a tournament without them and then let the chips fall where they may and work from the ground up...I bet you that the houserules that would develop from that would be different then they are now.

The only issue with this is that tournaments happen far to infrequently, the game changes too frequently, and the community is too small.. So I have a tournament tomorrow with no holds bared rules. Maybe it shows that Orks are OP (maybe all the good players in my area play orks, and 20 people show up), but no one is going to buy into one tournaments results....it is too small a sample, so next week you hold an event across the country and Eldar win the top 5 places and no ork players show up...assuming we track all tourney results (we don't), and that there are enough good players at any event to give meaningful results (often there aren't). Say we find out after a months worth of results that Eldar overall win 70% of the time and we have lists and battle reports, for every game so that we can determine what is imbalanced....the next week space marines drop and we need to start all over again.

The GW release schedule does not allow for long term community balancing.

chaosmarauder wrote:
I think the current Meta is the fault of anyone whos whined about this that or the other thing.

At this point honestly, lets have an open tournament format where anything in the BRB and forgeworld is a full go and see who comes out on top?

The lists would be so varied it would be friggen awesome!

This and this.

Simple answer seems to be make it apply to rhinos and Razorbacks but not pods.