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as usual the conflicts between RAW/FAQs will keep us busy for a little while.. Here just one example.

As per Iron Hands new chapter tactics all IH models (non-vehicle) have a free 6+ feel no pain like in the 6th ed.

However what happen when a Narthecium is introduced in the equation?

The new codex states: "Add 1 to any feel no pain rolls".... 5 or 4 then?

I'm a simple minded guy so pls bear with me, if a Command Squad normally has a 5+ fnp from the Narthecium should we think that the unit (and even so every attached IH ICs) will have a good-old-scool-fashioned 4+?

I mean...

2 Chapter Masters, one with Eternal Shield, TH/SS like there's no tomorrow, a grav-pimped Command Squad with some SS, 5 Librarians bikers per the formation.. ALL WITH 4+ fnp..

Well..

it improves it by one, so it goes to 4


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and you can benefit more from the gorgons chain too

That's just insane...

Cast Endurance for a standard 3+ FNP or 2+ with the chain or +1 to FNP rolls WL trait.

with the warlord trait, can probably push 2+ FnP

Doesn't the Chain is a Clan Raukan expansion special item?
In the case I doubt it could be used on CADs listed from the new codex..

 Toban wrote:
as usual the conflicts between RAW/FAQs will keep us busy for a little while.. Here just one example.

As per Iron Hands new chapter tactics all IH models (non-vehicle) have a free 6+ feel no pain like in the 6th ed.

However what happen when a Narthecium is introduced in the equation?

The new codex states: "Add 1 to any feel no pain rolls".... 5 or 4 then?

I'm a simple minded guy so pls bear with me, if a Command Squad normally has a 5+ fnp from the Narthecium should we think that the unit (and even so every attached IH ICs) will have a good-old-scool-fashioned 4+?

I mean...

2 Chapter Masters, one with Eternal Shield, TH/SS like there's no tomorrow, a grav-pimped Command Squad with some SS, 5 Librarians bikers per the formation.. ALL WITH 4+ fnp..

Well..

The models don't actually improve from FnP (5+) to FnP (4+). They still stay at FnP (5+)... you just add 1 to any rolls you make. In practice, this means that you'll pass your required 5+ FnP roll on a roll of a 4, 5, or 6. Subtle difference, but important.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Toban wrote:
as usual the conflicts between RAW/FAQs will keep us busy for a little while.. Here just one example.

As per Iron Hands new chapter tactics all IH models (non-vehicle) have a free 6+ feel no pain like in the 6th ed.

However what happen when a Narthecium is introduced in the equation?

The new codex states: "Add 1 to any feel no pain rolls".... 5 or 4 then?

I'm a simple minded guy so pls bear with me, if a Command Squad normally has a 5+ fnp from the Narthecium should we think that the unit (and even so every attached IH ICs) will have a good-old-scool-fashioned 4+?

I mean...

2 Chapter Masters, one with Eternal Shield, TH/SS like there's no tomorrow, a grav-pimped Command Squad with some SS, 5 Librarians bikers per the formation.. ALL WITH 4+ fnp..

Well..

The models don't actually improve from FnP (5+) to FnP (4+). They still stay at FnP (5+)... you just add 1 to any rolls you make. In practice, this means that you'll pass your required 5+ FnP roll on a roll of a 4, 5, or 6. Subtle difference, but important.

Does this mean that if you combine it with Endurance, Gorgon's Chain (etc etc) to make an IH model get 2+ FNP, it is impossible to fail it?

Since even when you roll an 1, you add 1, which makes a 2. And 2 is enough for the 2+ FNP.

If so, it makes the model invincible to small arms fire. O.o

natural rolls of 1 always fail, still.

greytalon666 wrote:
natural rolls of 1 always fail, still.

why? only in certain situations is 1 an auto fail

 Kriswall wrote:


The models don't actually improve from FnP (5+) to FnP (4+). They still stay at FnP (5+)... you just add 1 to any rolls you make. In practice, this means that you'll pass your required 5+ FnP roll on a roll of a 4, 5, or 6. Subtle difference, but important.

Kinda sorta. Technically Necrons can at best get a 4+ RP roll, but everliving and crypteks only add +1 to the roll. However, no one with a straight face can argue that you can pass a roll on a 1, 2, or 3 regardless of how many stacked bonuses you have. I'm pretty sure FNP would work the same way.

Sadly GW sucks at writing rules, and leave us to clean up the mess.

Page 421 (Maximum Save)

Some models gain additional benefits from rules that may increase any of their saves by +1 or +2 or even more. However, no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails.



I think we need to break down, though, where these bonuses are coming from.

Example: IH character from Clan Raukaan with a Command Squad including Apothecary:
- Apothecary gives FNP (5+++)
- Gets +1 to FNP roll from IH CT The Flesh is Weak (equivalent of 4+++)
- Gets +1 to FNP roll from The Gorgon's Chain (equivalent of 3+++)

If you were lucky enough to roll The Flesh is Weak for your Warlord trait, you get another +1 to FNP roll, giving you an equivalent of 2+++

However, if you have a Librarian blessing the Captain's unit with Endurance, it's not so cut-and-dry. Endurance is a straight FNP (4+) - it doesn't say anywhere that it gives a bonus to your FNP roll. Similar to the Apothecary's straight FNP (5+). I imagine in this case, you go with the lower one - Endurance. It lands you the equivalent of 2+++, but if you rolled The Flesh is Weak for your Warlord trait, it wouldn't help you at all.

So, you can reliably have a Command Squad with 4+++ and your IH character at 3+++. With some lucky rolls (or other Librarian power-choosing shenanigans) you can drop that to 3+++ for the squad and 2+++ for your character. But he'll never be invincible.

Feel no pain is not a save though

Hrm. Right. Which is why you get to use it after you've rolled your armor or invul save.

Yeah.

Okay, I'm out. That being the case, I don't see anything that stops you from having an invulnerable IH character.

 Massaen wrote:
Feel no pain is not a save though

This. The above rule is about saves, well, FNP is not a save.

When you roll a 1 the +1 makes it a 2. If you can get a 2+ FNP in addition to the +1 to the roll you end up with a character that can only be hurt by things with insta death, I think.

Lance845 wrote:

This. The above rule is about saves, well, FNP is not a save.

When you roll a 1 the +1 makes it a 2. If you can get a 2+ FNP in addition to the +1 to the roll you end up with a character that can only be hurt by things with insta death, I think.

And a distinct lack of opponents.

Isn't there a condition in the basic parts of the rulebook stressing that any dice roll must be able to fail in one way or another?

Not that I can find. When discussing characteristic and leadership tests it mentions that if a rule states that something 'automatically passes' or 'automatically fails' no dice roll is needed, but there's nothing to say that a dice roll must be able to fail.

 Death By Monkeys wrote:
Not that I can find. When discussing characteristic and leadership tests it mentions that if a rule states that something 'automatically passes' or 'automatically fails' no dice roll is needed, but there's nothing to say that a dice roll must be able to fail.

Hrm.

HIWPI - Force a wound on the Chapter Master. My opponent comments that he has a 1+ FNP, and moves on. I take another action, and then remind my opponent that he did not pass his FNP roll, because he didn't roll a dice.

Belly wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

This. The above rule is about saves, well, FNP is not a save.

When you roll a 1 the +1 makes it a 2. If you can get a 2+ FNP in addition to the +1 to the roll you end up with a character that can only be hurt by things with insta death, I think.

And a distinct lack of opponents.

Isn't there a condition in the basic parts of the rulebook stressing that any dice roll must be able to fail in one way or another?

There is no general rule requiring a dice roll can fail; S10 against armour 10 cannot fdail to penetrate, even on a 1.

The only rolls that auto fail on a 1 are saves.

Srsly, all those people who think that they can play with insta pass FNP on roll 1+ must got something wrong with brain.

You'll have to kill the apothecary first .

The rules normally cover anything which requires a roll as never being able to automatically pass (as there are specific rules for automatically doing somethings which do not require a roll_): FNP is one area that manages to dodge any of the wording strictly around these.


Saying as such, I don't know anyone who would play it as a can never fail roll. I can't see many people being up for it.

 Mr.T wrote:
Srsly, all those people who think that they can play with insta pass FNP on roll 1+ must got something wrong with brain.

Why? This is what the rules say. What is your reasoning for implying that people who follow the rules are brain damaged? I'd happily play against someone who understands the rules well enough to see how a 1+ FnP roll is possible. I'd simply target and kill the Apothecary, and move on with the game. I would NEVER play against someone who implied that I was brain damaged.

Belly wrote:
HIWPI - Force a wound on the Chapter Master. My opponent comments that he has a 1+ FNP, and moves on. I take another action, and then remind my opponent that he did not pass his FNP roll, because he didn't roll a dice.

I wasn't saying it was an automatic success - it has to say that in the rules for you to be allowed to not roll for it. So, even if it was a 1+ roll, you would still need to roll for it.

Anyway, as was said before, Instant Death will take them right out. As will D-weapons. Wraithguard should still take 'em out right quick.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Mr.T wrote:
Srsly, all those people who think that they can play with insta pass FNP on roll 1+ must got something wrong with brain.

Why? This is what the rules say. What is your reasoning for implying that people who follow the rules are brain damaged? I'd happily play against someone who understands ]how to bend the rules well enough to see how a 1+ FnP roll is possible. I'd simply target and kill the Apothecary, and move on with the game. I would NEVER play against someone who implied that I was brain damaged.

Fixed that for you.

Even as a Marine player myself, and therefore someone that could take advantage of this, I wouldn't play someone using this rule in this manner. What would the point be? Engage god mode -> steam roll opposition -> gloat. Where's the fun in that? By being a player that uses the above rule as discussed here, where's the kudos for being a strong tactical mind that simply has a) a strong army in the first place, that is b) backed up by something that would make them immune to 90% of weapons in the game?

If it's a computer game against a computer itself, fine - invulnerability cheat just for the fun, but to pull it on another human is disrespectful and frankly, trolling the game, boring your opponent, and disrespecting yourself if you think you need an unbeatable army to win a game of dice.

False information but leaving it in for sequence see last line or my following post

I do not know much about the IH FNP possibility's as such I will not comment on a 1+ FNP is possible practically.
Theoretically FNP is not a save so with enough modifiers it could be 1+ (or better said 4+ with a +500 to your dice roll hehe)

Now the issue is in the very early pages of the BRB is mentioned that a unmodified roll of 1 is always a fail and a 6 is always a succes!
This is not the repeat further up when its said in relation to saves. Its a earlyer page just saying that for any dice roll a unmodified 1 fails and 6 works
I'll modify the post to have the page numeber once I have the book in my hand again not at home right now.

What this means is even if you roll a 1 and it would get +500 it is still a unmodified 1 so fails.
The reason for example we can't wound S2 vs T10 is due to another rule saying that in this case a dice role will not be done and the wound failed.
I plugged this in here to prevent people from bringing this example up hehe.

So a roll of 1 +500 will fail and a roll of 6 with a -500 modifier will still work.


I was mistaken: after looking it up none of the rules saying 1 always fails, 2+ is the best you can get. All of those relate to diffirent tests or stats. FNP is not forced to follow those rules.

That's on characteristic tests.


+1 Fnp is completely legit.

Same logic to the 1+ to repair tests with a techmarine and sufficient servitors

Yep, there's no bending of the rules about it. The bonuses stack.

Is it fun? Probably not. Is it a dick move? Yeah probably. But the same has been said about different units in the past, too.

I'm not defending or advocating it's use. I'm just illustrating why it is legal. You want to blame someone, blame GW for failing to playtest properly.