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I don't know if it's been said yet as I haven't read the full post but it's a hangover from earlier editions of the game and also whfb.
The charts were kept the same to provide a level of familiarity between the two systems.
Back in the day it was harder to shoot things with both range and cover modifiers in place. As need has grown to sell/kill models more quickly in bigger and bigger games the shooting modifiers have dropped away but a change to the hand to hand To Hit chart would stray too far from the core mechanics already established. It has been patched by making models throw more dice in hand to hand.
GW have always had the tables this way and probably always will.

Working within these pre established, draconian rules is really starting to affect the flow and intuitive nature of the game with all of the needless exceptions to the rules.

The game needs a rewrite at this new scale.
Ask Andy Chambers how well that went last time.

Ratflinger wrote:
As already suggested, the reason to why units with high WS does not auto hit, is likely to ensure they do not wipe one squad a turn.

The problem would become apparent against the armies that lack high WS cc units all together.

Gee it'd sure be a shame if the game had elite units that were able to use what they're good at to kill a unit a turn. It's a good thing units like that don't exist- oh wait. There are like 50 of them in the shooting side of the game. -_-

niv-mizzet wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
As already suggested, the reason to why units with high WS does not auto hit, is likely to ensure they do not wipe one squad a turn.

The problem would become apparent against the armies that lack high WS cc units all together.

Gee it'd sure be a shame if the game had elite units that were able to use what they're good at to kill a unit a turn. It's a good thing units like that don't exist- oh wait. There are like 50 of them in the shooting side of the game. -_-

Exactly - its not even units -you need WS 6 to 2+ even gaurdsmen and 8+ against Marines...... its normally only single names characters that will get ths with a few unit exceptions.

IMO, 3+ is entirely reasonable for high WS characters. Gotta make them earn their kills lol.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
IMO, 3+ is entirely reasonable for high WS characters. Gotta make them earn their kills lol.

Surely they've earned their kills by getting into combat in the first place?

Instead of this double and double +1 I'd like to just see a single chart that goes:
WS vs opponent
4+ points less, hit on 6s
2-3 points less, hit on 5s
1 point less or the same, hit on 4s.
1-2 points higher, hit on 3s
3+ points higher, hit on 2s

So a WS6 Chapter master would hit a WS4 Chaos Marine on 3s and WS3 guardsmen on 2s.
A WS3 Guardsman would hit a WS4 Marine on a 4, but need a 5 to hit a WS5 Khorne Berzerker, and a 6 to hit a WS7 Archon.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Instead of this double and double +1 I'd like to just see a single chart that goes:
WS vs opponent
4+ points less, hit on 6s
2-3 points less, hit on 5s
1 point less or the same, hit on 4s.
1-2 points higher, hit on 3s
3+ points higher, hit on 2s

So a WS6 Chapter master would hit a WS4 Chaos Marine on 3s and WS3 guardsmen on 2s.
A WS3 Guardsman would hit a WS4 Marine on a 4, but need a 5 to hit a WS5 Khorne Berzerker, and a 6 to hit a WS7 Archon.

Does make it more predictable, as you get sequences of 3's and 5's that don't go nicely into an 'oh, x on y, right', but it does make it a little less powerful then the BS chart, with rerolls for anything over BS6. Maybe just make it a flat, if you hit on 2's you get to preroll on 4's.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
As already suggested, the reason to why units with high WS does not auto hit, is likely to ensure they do not wipe one squad a turn.

The problem would become apparent against the armies that lack high WS cc units all together.

Gee it'd sure be a shame if the game had elite units that were able to use what they're good at to kill a unit a turn. It's a good thing units like that don't exist- oh wait. There are like 50 of them in the shooting side of the game. -_-

List them. Hell, list 25 of them. Actually, I'll be nice, list 10. Alright, I'll be generous, List 5. Let's see if we can't find equal points melee that do just as well or better.

 Purifier wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
As already suggested, the reason to why units with high WS does not auto hit, is likely to ensure they do not wipe one squad a turn.

The problem would become apparent against the armies that lack high WS cc units all together.

Gee it'd sure be a shame if the game had elite units that were able to use what they're good at to kill a unit a turn. It's a good thing units like that don't exist- oh wait. There are like 50 of them in the shooting side of the game. -_-

List them. Hell, list 25 of them. Actually, I'll be nice, list 10. Alright, I'll be generous, List 5. Let's see if we can't find equal points melee that do just as well or better.

Pretty much half the Eldar Codex for a start

I honestly wonder if it has something to do with the relatively large number of modifiers that exist granting extra attacks to models in melee.

Ranged weapons are static in terms of how many "attacks" they make, while melee can vary wildly with varying degrees of effectiveness.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
As already suggested, the reason to why units with high WS does not auto hit, is likely to ensure they do not wipe one squad a turn.

The problem would become apparent against the armies that lack high WS cc units all together.

Gee it'd sure be a shame if the game had elite units that were able to use what they're good at to kill a unit a turn. It's a good thing units like that don't exist- oh wait. There are like 50 of them in the shooting side of the game. -_-

List them. Hell, list 25 of them. Actually, I'll be nice, list 10. Alright, I'll be generous, List 5. Let's see if we can't find equal points melee that do just as well or better.

Pretty much half the Eldar Codex for a start

So pick out one unit then.

Jet Bikes with Cannons - so range, accuracy and killing power.

What exactly is your problem with the best CC models beign able to do their job -remember you need DOUBLE WS to get 2+

 Mr Morden wrote:
Jet Bikes with Cannons - so range, accuracy and killing power.

What exactly is your problem with the best CC models beign able to do their job -remember you need DOUBLE WS to get 2+

My problem isn't "with the best CC models beign able to do their job"
My problem is that the best CC models can do their job and this whining that they can't is completely misguided.

The problem CC has isn't that they might get hit by an inferior foe, it's their delivery into combat.
CC models are already crushing harder than shooting are once they get into combat, pound for pound.

Have you missed that CC models generally have more attacks per model than shooters have? Have you missed that charging CC models get more attacks? Have you missed that some CC models often get even more attacks on the charge?
Is it realistic that CC models will often be able to hit twice as much, if not more, than what a shooting model is capable of shooting in the same time? Is it reasonable that you can swing your sword more than twice as fast as an automatic rifle and shoot its rounds?

My problem is with your one dimensional whine. You're looking at one part of a greater picture and comparing it to a corresponding part of a completely different picture.

Why would the best CC'ers need a buff to hit? They are already the kings of the fight once they get into combat and will often leave the combat without taking a single scratch.

The problem CC has isn't that they might get hit by an inferior foe, it's their delivery into combat.

I disagree. If I am paying however many hundred points for a cc monster like lelith hesperax for example, then grots should not be able to hit her on a 5.

Similarly, with a weaponskill quadruple that of her target, you would expect her to be hitting on 2's.

The cc table really does favour weaker units. Getting more than double your opponent's weapon skill is usually impossible for most units, and not doing so means you are still hit 50% of the time.

Even the supposedly close combat inept tau are still hitting space marines on 4+

 Purifier wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Jet Bikes with Cannons - so range, accuracy and killing power.

What exactly is your problem with the best CC models beign able to do their job -remember you need DOUBLE WS to get 2+

My problem isn't "with the best CC models beign able to do their job"
My problem is that the best CC models can do their job and this whining that they can't is completely misguided.

The problem CC has isn't that they might get hit by an inferior foe, it's their delivery into combat.
CC models are already crushing harder than shooting are once they get into combat, pound for pound.

Have you missed that CC models generally have more attacks per model than shooters have? Have you missed that charging CC models get more attacks? Have you missed that some CC models often get even more attacks on the charge?
Is it realistic that CC models will often be able to hit twice as much, if not more, than what a shooting model is capable of shooting in the same time? Is it reasonable that you can swing your sword more than twice as fast as an automatic rifle and shoot its rounds?

My problem is with your one dimensional whine. You're looking at one part of a greater picture and comparing it to a corresponding part of a completely different picture.

Why would the best CC'ers need a buff to hit? They are already the kings of the fight once they get into combat and will often leave the combat without taking a single scratch.

Total Nonsense, almost everyone else is agreeing that its not only hard to get into combat but then you have a stupidly high chance of failing to do gak - i have lost count of the nu mber of times high WS characters have failed to kill easy targets - half their WS or less.

Have you missed in you misguided and misinformed rant that CC models pay lots for thier abilities - half of them canl;t even get through 2+ armour - have you somehiow forgotten that many of the best guns fire mutiple times and are in fact AP2.

oh and with the whining remark - considering you starting crying and screaming after

completely misreading

the OP - or not bothering to do so - thata bit rich.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Have you missed in you misguided and misinformed rant that CC models pay lots for thier abilities - half of them canl;t even get through 2+ armour - have you somehiow forgotten that many of the best guns fire mutiple times and are in fact AP2.

I'm just gonna ignore all the stuff you said that was completely irrelevant and respond to this.

"Half of them can't even get through 2+ armour"
Are you seriously claiming that more than half of the shooters can get through 2+ armour? Where are you playing that has AP2 on every gun? Where I'm at, that's a rare and heavy gun. They are no more prevalent than thunder hammers or other AP2 melee weapons.
This is such a ridiculous claim I don't even know where you get off saying something like that.
"CC models pay lots for their abilities."
A powerfist is 25 points. Now check out the price for a lascannon on a marine. No, you're not paying a bunch more. And that's AP2 on all of your hits.
And if you're saying you should be able to tear through 2+ armour just because you're CC, that's even more ridiculous.

And what the hell are you both on about. Your extremely powerful characters getting hit by a grot is such a huge problem for you that you NEED it to hit on a 5+? This is the problem CC has in your minds? That once they are in CC they might get slapped by a grot? I can't even begin to understand the thinking here. Oh no, it hit you. Since you're a ws7 character or whatever, you probably have a big save, big toughness and a few wounds. Big god damn whoop! He's not gonna wound you anyway and if he miraculously does, you've got loads of wounds still.

You have yet to give any example of a match up that this actually would affect in any way. you just throw around these hypothetical reasons. Come on. Show me a match up where a big expensive CC hero has a chance of getting into bad trouble in CC against weaklings that would have been helpless if they had 5+ instead of 4+ to hit.

Listen up then mate - I never said that - you seem to think that all shooters have crappy guns and can't hit - or some other rubbish - I said - and again I see your not actually reading again rather than all that that many of THE BEST GUNS ignore armour! FFS learn to read.

I have played many games where my oh so awesome Archon that's WS7 - missed all but one or even all her attacks in close combat against WS 3 opponents because she hits on 3+ rather than the poor shooters that your desperate to protect that get - oh yeah 2+ and a re-roll.

I have "awesome" close combat characters like St Celestine that's wait for it - AP3 and there are plenty of others.

 Purifier wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Have you missed in you misguided and misinformed rant that CC models pay lots for thier abilities - half of them canl;t even get through 2+ armour - have you somehiow forgotten that many of the best guns fire mutiple times and are in fact AP2.

I'm just gonna ignore all the stuff you said that was completely irrelevant and respond to this.

"Half of them can't even get through 2+ armour"
Are you seriously claiming that more than half of the shooters can get through 2+ armour? Where are you playing that has AP2 on every gun? Where I'm at, that's a rare and heavy gun. They are no more prevalent than thunder hammers or other AP2 melee weapons.

In a Farsight Enclave army, it's possible for the entire army to be equipped with plasma rifles or better.

Of course, since they're not a formation-hammer army, I can't imagine most players will have a problem handling FE no matter what.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Have you missed in you misguided and misinformed rant that CC models pay lots for thier abilities - half of them canl;t even get through 2+ armour - have you somehiow forgotten that many of the best guns fire mutiple times and are in fact AP2.

I'm just gonna ignore all the stuff you said that was completely irrelevant and respond to this.

"Half of them can't even get through 2+ armour"
Are you seriously claiming that more than half of the shooters can get through 2+ armour? Where are you playing that has AP2 on every gun? Where I'm at, that's a rare and heavy gun. They are no more prevalent than thunder hammers or other AP2 melee weapons.

In a Farsight Enclave army, it's possible for the entire army to be equipped with plasma rifles or better.

Of course, since they're not a formation-hammer army, I can't imagine most players will have a problem handling FE no matter what.

I use Dominions quite a bit - so that squads of 4 sisters with Melta guns - ALL AP1 and a superior or Canoness with Combi-metla.

Then we have Grav guns, Eldar and pseudo rending / D Weapons / etc etc - nuff said.

 Ratius wrote:
When a gretchin has a 33% chance to hit the Avatar of Khaine and the Avatar has a 33% to miss said Gretchin: something is amiss.

Read that backwards or using the same term for both and it doesn't sound that bad.
Example
When a gretchin has a 67% chance to miss the Avatar of Khaine and the Avatar has a 67% to hit

or
When a gretchin has a 33% chance to hit the Avatar of Khaine and the Avatar has a 67% to hit

Still not great, but it does sound a lot less "OMG!"

kaotkbliss wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
When a gretchin has a 33% chance to hit the Avatar of Khaine and the Avatar has a 33% to miss said Gretchin: something is amiss.

Read that backwards or using the same term for both and it doesn't sound that bad.
Example
When a gretchin has a 67% chance to miss the Avatar of Khaine and the Avatar has a 67% to hit

or
When a gretchin has a 33% chance to hit the Avatar of Khaine and the Avatar has a 67% to hit

Still not great, but it does sound a lot less "OMG!"

When you consider that the avatar is 200+ points, and the grot is 3 however...

There are some reasons why close combat is generally held to more limits than shooting. Shooting does not lock another units action. Shooting has no equivalent of "sweeping advance" where you can inflict one wound and force an Ld test and then wipe the entire unit. Close combat also inherently ignores all cover saves. Close Combat, unlike shooting, also gets to hit the weakest armor facing on vehicles and simply has to make it into base contact to do so and can auto-hit immobilized vehicles (unlike shooting).

Now, is that to say that the WS table isn't a bit wonky? No, it's a relic of the earliest vestiges of 40k when WS functioned differently. But there's some good reasons as to why CC is treated differently than shooting.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There are some reasons why close combat is generally held to more limits than shooting. Shooting does not lock another units action. Shooting has no equivalent of "sweeping advance" where you can inflict one wound and force an Ld test and then wipe the entire unit. Close combat also inherently ignores all cover saves. Close Combat, unlike shooting, also gets to hit the weakest armor facing on vehicles and simply has to make it into base contact to do so and can auto-hit immobilized vehicles (unlike shooting).

Now, is that to say that the WS table isn't a bit wonky? No, it's a relic of the earliest vestiges of 40k when WS functioned differently. But there's some good reasons as to why CC is treated differently than shooting.

The oldest WS chart used to be 2+ to 9+ to hit but there was quite a few modifiers..........

Thats fair enough but shooting is also without risk (unless it gets hot of course) - you can't get hit back in the same phase, you can shoot from cover and form a safe distance, would you be against the original proposal given its inherent limitations to the most elite close Combat units?

Oh I'm not really against having higher WS do more. Only explaining why CC is often treated somewhat more stringently. I wouldn't mind if WS had a wider hit array, but, that said, I think it would only make a big difference in "killy unit vs killy unit" scenarios, as mega-skilled killy CC units already simply obliterate weeny units.

EDIT: also, for some reason, I always think your avatar is someone wearing a sombrero...

On a similar line, does anyone think there should be a bonus for having much higher initiative than your opponent?

I guess it just seems a bit silly that being 1 initiative higher than your opponent is exactly as effective as being 5pts higher.

In my opinion it should be "double" to get 2+

If WS is tied then 50/50 chance. 4+

if WS is higher 3+

If WS is double the opponents then 2+

If WS is lower 5+

If WS is half 6+

I think that would balance pretty well.

 Purifier wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:


Gee it'd sure be a shame if the game had elite units that were able to use what they're good at to kill a unit a turn. It's a good thing units like that don't exist- oh wait. There are like 50 of them in the shooting side of the game. -_-

List them. Hell, list 25 of them. Actually, I'll be nice, list 10. Alright, I'll be generous, List 5. Let's see if we can't find equal points melee that do just as well or better.

Problem with this is that it takes multiple turns, and fairly heavy investment in deployment methods, in order to get a melee unit in and let them start grumping.

Plenty of ranged units, and especially most powerful ones, can start laying down the pain-train turn 1.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Listen up then mate - I never said that - you seem to think that all shooters have crappy guns and can't hit - or some other rubbish

And I never said that you said that, so try not to shove words into my mouth. It's easy to make up what I said and then start slamming it.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I said - and again I see your not actually reading again

No, that seems to be you, this time.

 Mr Morden wrote:
rather than all that that many of THE BEST GUNS ignore armour!

And many of them don't. And many of the best melee weapons ignore armour. I know. That's what I responded to, and it's still a messed up comparison. You're basically saying that some melee weapons don't ignore armour and some ranged weapons do, instead of accepting that they both have weapons that do and weapons that don't. You're making unfair comparisons and shoving them out as proof that melee is bad.

 Mr Morden wrote:
FFS learn to read.

Keep it classy, buddy. Remember Rule #1.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I have played many games where my oh so awesome Archon that's WS7 - missed all but one or even all her attacks in close combat against WS 3 opponents

And you have played many games where Archon has hit every single attack. Missing all attacks on 3+ is a statistical improbability. You can miss all your attacks on 2+ too, better make it auto hit.

 Mr Morden wrote:
because she hits on 3+ rather than the poor shooters that your desperate to protect that get - oh yeah 2+ and a re-roll.

And there you go hyperboling again without giving any solid data. Who are these mythical creature shooters with BS5 and twin-linked? I can't take you seriously anymore because you just throw out these things like they are what every shooter gets.
Almost every shooter in the game is BS4 and hit on a 3+. Anything above that is rare. BS3 isn't entirely uncommon either. Most people that have BS5+ are the same people that have WS7.

 Mr Morden wrote:

I have "awesome" close combat characters like St Celestine that's wait for it - AP3 and there are plenty of others.

I play Sisters too. Celestine isn't an awesome fighter. That's not her role and if you're using her for it, you're either using her wrong or playing against Guard. She harasses with her flamer, uses her amazing mobility and picks off weak squads.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I use Dominions quite a bit - so that squads of 4 sisters with Melta guns - ALL AP1 and a superior or Canoness with Combi-metla.

One shot each. One sarge with a Thunderhammer or Powerfist can output the same amount of high AP, high damage attacks on the charge. Alternatively, 4 guys with melta bombs. This is hardly firepower that melee can't match.
Those Dominions also cost a premium. You said that melee pays a lot for their powers. So do shooters.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Problem with this is that it takes multiple turns, and fairly heavy investment in deployment methods, in order to get a melee unit in and let them start grumping.
Plenty of ranged units, and especially most powerful ones, can start laying down the pain-train turn 1.

And that's exactly what I said. The problem melee has isn't with missing some attacks. It's with delivery.

Once melee charges, it is already much more powerful than shooting. You get many more attacks than shooting gets shots for the same price. There is a bonus on extra attacks for charging. When you lock up a shooting unit in combat, they won't get out until they are dead. The same isn't true for a melee unit taking shots from a shooting unit. They can still reposition out of the range or line of sight of further shots.

A shooting unit next to a melee combat is not going to be able to do much to help their mates. The melee units already in combat are immune to shots, but not immune to further melee hits. The only thing immune to melee are flyers, and they're almost immune to most shooting too.

A lot of the big shooting weapons can't be used after moving. That's never true for the big melee weapons.

Mr Morden is trying to make out like melee specialists are in a tight spot because the world is ripe with all powerful shooting, and melee is weak at best. That's simply not true. Melee is already much more pwerful than shooting if you can get into combat. So their only problem is getting into combat.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
When you consider that the avatar is 200+ points, and the grot is 3 however...

You can't compare a grot's price to an avatar in the vacuum of only comparing WS though, now can you? The grot wounds him on what... a 6+? And gets wounded on a 2+? The avatar then gets a save and the grot sure doesn't. The avatar will also spill loads of wounds over what the grot has and the grot, even rolling like a God, would still not be able to kill the avatar. The grot also has limited usability at best, while the avatar has a lot of battlefield roles it can fill.

Just going "it's messed up that this 3 point guy can hit my 200 point guy on a 5+!" is taking things so wildly out of context that the context is a dot to you.

WS chart needs to change or been tweaked.

On a separate note, someone talked about the fact that an Avatar of khaine could swipe a guard squad in one swoop of his sword.

Yes, i always found hilarious that lets say a BT has to attack one target at a time to kill them, when nearly 75% of things he strikes at, are the height of his knees...

Some kind of "swipe" attack?, forfeit all your attacks for 1 attack that hits all targets in BtB maybe? and you get to reroll as many targets that are in BtB or some other way.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
WS chart needs to change or been tweaked.

On a separate note, someone talked about the fact that an Avatar of khaine could swipe a guard squad in one swoop of his sword.

Yes, i always found hilarious that lets say a BT has to attack one target at a time to kill them, when nearly 75% of things he strikes at, are the height of his knees...

Some kind of "swipe" attack?, forfeit all your attacks for 1 attack that hits all targets in BtB maybe? and you get to reroll as many targets that are in BtB or some other way.

There are characters with that special rule. It's normally not that great. He has 5 attacks base, iirc? It's not very often you'll have more than 5 people in BtB contact.
And you can see the massive amount of attacks (5) as a way of representing that exact thing. It's not very probable that he is hacking that huge sword so fast that he manages to hack it more than twice as fast as a bolter using rapid fire. So maybe those 5 attacks are just to represent how many hits his one swing has a chance of connecting with.